Hornby 2021 - 4 & 6 wheel period coaches

[JSpencer]

Today I received 4 GNR Generic coaches. These are to occasionally run behind my Stirling single and Atlantic C1 (both NRM versions). I have included the NRM LNER Dynometer(?) car in one photo for teak comparison.

 

 

 

 

 

[Butler Henderson]

Bachmann join the ranks with Thomas "Vintage Coaches"

Meanwhile my "GNR" open 3rd is now a "LCDR" all smoking compartment 3rd with plastic card glued atop the centre of the seat mouldings, (dummy) oil lamps (MJT 2947), Eros vents (ebay seller mattymay05) and vacuum cylinders, battery box and dynamo (Comet USC1 & C11) with the footboard attached to the inside bottom of the solebar for late 20th century preserved line use. 

The yellow lining largely oblitered by an ultrafine brown Sharpie marker but attempts to blend the de GNR badged doors in with the bodywork have so far proved unsuccessful; however some preserved teak coaches have mismatched doors. Re-teaking the whole would be a solution but LCDR coach transfers seem to be none existent so I have retained Hornbys lettering  bar the GNR letters. The battery box provides a useful grip for getting the body off as the footboards preclude gripping the chassis sides. The partitions and inside coach ends have been painted Brown Ochre to repesent timber panelling and the seats repainted a blue; a shade mixed from Sky and Royal blues. Partition tops were trimmed to fit around the light strip but that resulted in the centre compartment being in darkness so the slot in the partitions deepened. 

 

 

 

[PhilJ W]

2 hours ago, JSpencer said:

Today I received 4 GNR Generic coaches. These are to occasionally run behind my Stirling single and Atlantic C1 (both NRM versions). I have included the NRM LNER Dynometer(?) car in one photo for teak comparison.

 

 

 

 

 

The Dynometer car looks a bit darker but not too much so. Natural finishes such as teak will have variations anyway. In fact a rake of 'teak' coaches with identical colouring would be unusual. Then you have to take into account weathering and how long since a coach was in works. As a final point I'm waiting for the Hattons coaches to see how they compare.

[wainwright1]

For clarity lets look at the livery details with specific reference to SE & CR 4 wheeled and 6 wheeled coaches.

 

On 05/02/2021 at 15:29, phil-b259 said:

On 05/02/2021 at 15:18, wainwright1 said:

Aah yes. The colour that Hattons should paint their SE & CR 4/6 wheelers !

Ray

 

Why?

 

It is a matter of historical FACT that the SECR used TWO different base colours at different times (but keeping the same lining style). One was the more reddish hue seen on the preserved KESR line and Hattons forthcoming models while the other is the more purple looking one as seen on the Bluebells 4 wheelers and Bachmann's 'Birdcage' stock.

 

BOTH are prototypically correct and BOTH can be used with locos ornately lined out in the Wainwright style.

 

The point of reference is SE & CR Carriages by Phil Coutanche, with permission of Lightmoor Press.

I have also spoken to some fellow members of the South Eastern and Chatham Railway Society to confirm details.

 

 

 

 

 

The SE & CR existed as a joint management committee from 1899 to 1923, a total of around 24 years.

To summarise:

The original liveries of the two constituent companies would have continued for a period - Varnished teak for the LC & DR and deep crimson lake for the SER.

After 1899 some coaches were finished with stained and grained upper halves and crimson lake on the lower half. I am advised that there are no known pictures so presumably a relative few. 

From 1901 all coaches painted deep crimson. This would have become uniform across the whole fleet for up to 10 years or more, covering 4 wheeled, 6 wheeled and bogie coaches. I have been told that this was basically a continuation of the SER Crimson.

(As used by Bachmann).

From 1910 it was noted that some coaches were appearing in a lighter shade than previously used. This would probably be restricted to new and front line stock in particular the 60ft stock as produced by Bachmann. Older coaches especially 4 wheelers which were getting on for 40 years old and mostly heading for scrapping, would not likely be repainted, but more probably re-varnished. (Which would in effect make the colour go even darker).

In 1914 the Great War started and there would have been cut-backs in materials including paint and reductions in manpower to apply it. So the application of varnish may have become more the norm to maintain the finish on the coaches when possible.

During 1916 they started painting coaches in a dark umber without lining which continued up until the grouping in 1923.

(As used by Bachmann).

 

I would therefore that assert that the following would be the appropriate for models:

 

                                          Deep Crimson               Lighter Crimson            Dark Umber

4 wheeled coaches                  All                                 Unlikely                       Unlikely

 

6 wheeled coaches                  All                            Very few, if any                    All               

 

Bogie coaches                          All                          New and frontline                 All

 

So to finalise:

Yes the SE & CR did use two shades of crimson paint, but I would definitely say that the lighter livery used for a very few years, which Hattons have chosen and shown on their preproduction models is incorrect for four wheeled and probably six wheeled coaches. Maybe its not too late to correct it ?

 

I am advised by a member that the Bluebell Railway Coach Department painted their coaches to match original Dark Crimson paint samples found on their coach bodies, and it is quite possible that the Lighter Crimson colour that the K&ESR have applied is inappropriate for those particular coaches.

 

Interestingly, there is however scope for Bachmann to do another run of their 60ft stock in the lighter shade of crimson if they are interested. 

 

Ray

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2021 by wainwright1

[DrStroganoff]

The saga of my lighting issues continues...     

 

A couple of days ago I took delivery of a BR crimson 1st class 6 wheeler to go with the 2 that I'd previously purchased (which had lighting issues).   But while the lighting in my 2x previously purchased coaches worked to an extent, (turning themselves on and off),  the lighting in this new first class coach just doesn't work.   
I've sat there waving the magnet above it, and it takes maybe 20/30 attempts to turn the lights on,  and then another 20 attempts to turn it off.   (I have no problem operating the lighting in my other 6 wheelers.)     I have tried replacing the battery to no avail.  While I had the roof off, I tried the magnet again, and I could see that the LED's very faintly blinked on/off when the magnet is near.    Does this sound faulty to you guys?    

I've mentioned this to the retailer from whom I purchased the coach,  and he has put me in touch with Hornby, who want me to send the coach to them 'for inspection'.   Does this sound  like normal practise?     (I haven't had much experience in having to return faulty items!)

 

Thanks.

[Coryton]

13 minutes ago, DrStroganoff said:

I've mentioned this to the retailer from whom I purchased the coach,  and he has put me in touch with Hornby, who want me to send the coach to them 'for inspection'.   Does this sound  like normal practise?     (I haven't had much experience in having to return faulty items!)

 

Thanks.

 

My guess would be that Hornby don't know what's gone wrong and they'd like to take a look so they know what the problem is and can take a view as to whether it's a one-off or a more serious problem for them.

 

If it's faulty then I believe you'd be in your rights to ask the retailer for a replacement - it's their responsibility to sell non-faulty goods even if the fault isn't their fault, so to speak . Maybe they could then send the faulty coach to Hornby for them to play with?

[Ravenser]

On 06/02/2021 at 18:18, RAYTHEROCK said:

Inclined to agree with Gilwell Park that  brown would have been more likely than cash-strapped early BR painting three old rattletraps crimson but we live in a land of make believe...

I might respray mine eventually, but for the minute am more interesting in closing up the coupling gap and removing the plethora of nosmo king stickers - and playing trains.

 

Have to say I did not realise Hornby had actually brought them in already and nearly got caught out - thanks Bure Valley and Colletts Models. One gets so used to endless announcements with deliveries far in the future or endless postponements .

 

Legend has it that at Felixstowe Town there was a store in which Stratford had dumped all its stock of GER coach crimson in 1923, and that in 1948 it was opened up and coaches were sent down to Felixstowe to be repainted in the new BR livery...

 

Whether paint could actually last 25 years  in a can is another matter, but it's a nice story

[PhilJ W]

39 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

Legend has it that at Felixstowe Town there was a store in which Stratford had dumped all its stock of GER coach crimson in 1923, and that in 1948 it was opened up and coaches were sent down to Felixstowe to be repainted in the new BR livery...

 

Whether paint could actually last 25 years  in a can is another matter, but it's a nice story

The paint used by railway companies up until WW2 didn't come in cans. It came as 'cake', a solid block of colour which had to crushed to a powder  and mixed with linseed oil. Some larger carriage workshops such as Stratford had cake crushing mills otherwise it was down to the apprentices. The coach painter mixed the paint which took some skill to get an even shade.

[Les1952]

3 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

The paint used by railway companies up until WW2 didn't come in cans. It came as 'cake', a solid block of colour which had to crushed to a powder  and mixed with linseed oil. Some larger carriage workshops such as Stratford had cake crushing mills otherwise it was down to the apprentices. The coach painter mixed the paint which took some skill to get an even shade.

 

.... which is why there was so much variation in "standard" colours.  The coach painter couldn't be in two places at once.

[IWCR]

re:  SECR coach colours

Many 6 wheel mainline coaches were modified to 4 wheelers for use on suburban services post ww1.

These would likely have had a general refurbish and repaint at the same time hence these would be in the umber livery. 

 

Pete

[Craigw]

16 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

The paint used by railway companies up until WW2 didn't come in cans. It came as 'cake', a solid block of colour which had to crushed to a powder  and mixed with linseed oil. Some larger carriage workshops such as Stratford had cake crushing mills otherwise it was down to the apprentices. The coach painter mixed the paint which took some skill to get an even shade.

 

Maybe some railways but certainly not the GWR which started buying ready mixed paints from around 1910. 

 

Source: Great Western Railway  Structure Colours 1912-1947 by Richard North (GWSG)

 

Craig W

[Caledonian]

On 03/02/2021 at 09:46, Phil Parker said:

With my journalist hat on, I've found out that these are 75% sold out already. The trade have a new price list confirming this.

 

Back when the happy news broke I pre-ordered a 6 wheel unclassified brake and 6 wheel 3rd in North British livery from Hattons. Delivery at that time was predicted as January/February.

 

The other week I was duly notified that if I electronically crossed their palms with silver, the 6 wheel brake would be despatched to me. I did, it was, and I'm perfectly happy with it, but there was no word of the 6 wheel 3rd.

 

However, according to Hatton's website :

 

The NBR 6 wheelers are not now due until December 2021- February 2022 and the 4 wheelers have vanished

 

GWR coaches are also due December 21-Feb 22

 

LSWR coaches are due March-May 2021

 

LBSCR the full brake is still listed as due January-February, but everything else has been put back to December 21-February 22

 

LNWR stock is now due June-August 2021

 

Southern 6 wheelers are likewise due June-August 2021 but there's a 4 wheelbrake due March-May

 

Now this is only Hattons, but it suggests that only limited stocks were initially released to the retailers and if not snapped up right away there may be a bit of a wait before more appear.

 

Anybody know anyone who still has NBR coaches in stock ? 

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, Craigw said:

Maybe some railways but certainly not the GWR which started buying ready mixed paints from around 1910. 

 

Source: Great Western Railway  Structure Colours 1912-1947 by Richard North (GWSG)

 

The reference you quote is a book on structure colours. Does it specifically state that the same applied to paint used in the Carriage & Wagon paint shop?

[wainwright1]

18 minutes ago, IWCR said:

re:  SECR coach colours

Many 6 wheel mainline coaches were modified to 4 wheelers for use on suburban services post ww1.

These would likely have had a general refurbish and repaint at the same time hence these would be in the umber livery. 

 

Pete

Quite right Pete.

As you know, some of the converted ones also got sent to the Isle of Wight and gave good service there.

They were primarily ex LC & DR coaches.

There were also sets of unconverted 6 wheelers which were kept as stock for Summer excursions and hop pickers, which would also be low priority for re-painting and probably just varnished. These were stored in such places as Blackheath and Crystal Palace High Level for much of the year.

A lot of ex SER 6 wheeled stock was recycled by cutting and shutting to form bogie stock for early EMU stock in the 1920s. So not a lot of them remained to be sold off for bungalows or garden sheds and to be potentially preserved at a later date.

 

Are you getting any snow on the Isle of Wight ?

 

All the best

Ray

 

[cessna152towser]

33 minutes ago, Caledonian said:

Anybody know anyone who still has NBR coaches in stock ? 

I bought an NBR brake 3rd from Jadlam Racing Models two weeks ago.   As  of this morning, when I checked their website, they still have some of the NBR range of coaches showing as "in stock" while others are now showing as "pre-order".

[Pre Grouping fan]

55 minutes ago, Caledonian said:

 

Back when the happy news broke I pre-ordered a 6 wheel unclassified brake and 6 wheel 3rd in North British livery from Hattons. Delivery at that time was predicted as January/February.

 

The other week I was duly notified that if I electronically crossed their palms with silver, the 6 wheel brake would be despatched to me. I did, it was, and I'm perfectly happy with it, but there was no word of the 6 wheel 3rd.

 

However, according to Hatton's website :

 

The NBR 6 wheelers are not now due until December 2021- February 2022 and the 4 wheelers have vanished

 

GWR coaches are also due December 21-Feb 22

 

LSWR coaches are due March-May 2021

 

LBSCR the full brake is still listed as due January-February, but everything else has been put back to December 21-February 22

 

LNWR stock is now due June-August 2021

 

Southern 6 wheelers are likewise due June-August 2021 but there's a 4 wheelbrake due March-May

 

Now this is only Hattons, but it suggests that only limited stocks were initially released to the retailers and if not snapped up right away there may be a bit of a wait before more appear.

 

Anybody know anyone who still has NBR coaches in stock ? 

How odd that hattons quote those delivery dates. I've just been onto Hornby's website and for all the preorder coaches they are due winter 20/21. It was stated on launch all of them were in stock so quite where hattons got those dates from is odd. 

[PaulRhB]

3 hours ago, Caledonian said:

Anybody know anyone who still has NBR coaches in stock ? 

Kernow still showing them

https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/search_suggest

 

 

[Guest]

On 05/02/2021 at 09:23, AVS1998 said:

The first of six carriages, repainted in umber, as compared to the factory NBR livery. And a Bachmann Birdcage in Phoenix SECR Lake for good measure! 

I am hoping to repaint a couple of six wheel brakes to run on my K&ESR based layout, and am interested to see that you have managed to do re-opaiont one successfully. One issue I was not certain about was the removal of the glazing units, was it easily done, or are there a few tricks that you could share?

[PhilJ W]

5 hours ago, Craigw said:

 

Maybe some railways but certainly not the GWR which started buying ready mixed paints from around 1910. 

 

Source: Great Western Railway  Structure Colours 1912-1947 by Richard North (GWSG)

 

Craig W

 

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The reference you quote is a book on structure colours. Does it specifically state that the same applied to paint used in the Carriage & Wagon paint shop?

The practice carried on at least until WW2 but it was a gradual process. Tram and bus companies also bought the paint components and mixed it themselves hence London Transport having different shades of red for Underground and buses. 

[Caledonian]

2 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

Kernow still showing them

https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/search_suggest

 

 

Most kind, Sir. Order placed 

[BlueLightning]

My video review complete with drawings is finally out, make yourself a cuppa and settle in! it's 42 minutes long!

 

Gary

 

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by BlueLightning

[PaulRhB]

49 minutes ago, Caledonian said:

Most kind, Sir. Order placed 

Pleasure, I knew as I’d added the luggage van to my short set

 

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, AVS1998 said:

 

Removing the glazing was very easy, on some of them I could do it with figure pressure. Otherwise, a craft knife slid down between the coach side and glazing and giving it a quick 'snap' to cut through the glue. Dead easy!

Thanks for that, I had hoped it would be easy. I will be ordering a couple of North Britsh coaches (correct roof furniture) for eventual re-paint, although, if it were not for the lining, they would sit quite comfortably with the coaches I have already built. Does anyone know how easily (if at all) the lining could be removed withiout damaging the paintwork?

[Nile]

I've found the lining comes off quite easily, handle with care! This is on the teak coaches, others might be different.

[Nile]

Are the NBR coaches actually painted? It doesn't look like the LBSCR ones I have are, apart from the roof.

Edited February 9, 2021 by Nile
roof