Hornby 2021 - 4 & 6 wheel period coaches

[JSpencer]

8 hours ago, Budgie said:

Look at the fourth picture.

All wheels on the rails in that picture (C1 + Dyno + 4 GNR coaches). The track curves slightly after the point and there is a 3rd rail there.

[IWCR]

20 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

Need to change the handles on my "LCDR" coach - they were vertical with handrail knobs top and bottom as shown in this picture of a brake 3rd. Noting the polished metal appearance does anyone make steel handrail knobs or alternatively is there a simple way of making brass look like polished steel?

The grabrails are actually brass in real life, no need to change material, yes they are polished. The prototype

grabrails do vary slightly in colour depending on the exact mix of brass used from quite a yellow to more of a yellow / grey. 

 

Pete

[Pre Grouping fan]

Here's a question for those with more knowledge of Brighton coaches.

 

Firstly how to the 6 wheel coaches compare to LBSC 6 wheelers?

 

And for now ignoring the chassis. Would grafting 2 6 Wheel First bodies be close to a LBSC 6 Compt 1st like No. 7598 on the bluebell?  www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/coach7598.html

[BlueLightning]

10 minutes ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

Firstly how to the 6 wheel coaches compare to LBSC 6 wheelers?

 

I am hoping to have some with me that I can give a proper look at soon, but based on photos I have seen so far the sides seem to match Billinton stock, I expect probably quite closely based on the 4 wheelers. However they maintain a Stroudley roof profile.

 

11 minutes ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

And for now ignoring the chassis. Would grafting 2 6 Wheel First bodies be close to a LBSC 6 Compt 1st like No. 7598 on the bluebell?  www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/coach7598.html

 

I expect 3 compartments each from a pair of firsts would match 7598 quite well. I will try to remember to measure up when I have the carriages to hand. If I forget, then please do remind me once I have posted my initial thoughts about them.

 

Gary

[Pre Grouping fan]

1 hour ago, BlueLightning said:

 

I am hoping to have some with me that I can give a proper look at soon, but based on photos I have seen so far the sides seem to match Billinton stock, I expect probably quite closely based on the 4 wheelers. However they maintain a Stroudley roof profile.

 

 

I expect 3 compartments each from a pair of firsts would match 7598 quite well. I will try to remember to measure up when I have the carriages to hand. If I forget, then please do remind me once I have posted my initial thoughts about them.

 

Gary

Thanks Gary,

 

Your 4 wheeler review was excellent and thorough so I will look forward to your comments when you do the same for the 6 wheelers. I must also look through your Youtube channel as it looks like there's some very interesting content.

 

I may just pluck up the courage and order a pair to give it a go once they are released.

 

Do you know who does the long shank buffers suitable for 7598? *Scratch that, I think it may have LNWR buffers being on a converted chassis and they were hiding on the Roxey website.

 

Matt

Edited February 11, 2021 by Pre Grouping fan
correction

[Nick Holliday]

2 hours ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

Here's a question for those with more knowledge of Brighton coaches.

 

Firstly how to the 6 wheel coaches compare to LBSC 6 wheelers?

 

 

Having acquired one of the NBR six wheelers to see how they stand up as LBSC vehicles, my worst fears have been confirmed in that they are to the same Stroudley-esque profile as the four wheelers. Combined with the lack of window mouldings, this means that they can really only attempt to represent Stroudley designs, and they look puny and squat when compared with the really McCoy of a proper Billinton carriage, such as the Branchlines kits or Roxey's bogie coaches. Someone linked here to a nice photo of a Brighton train with a mix of Stroudley and Billinton stock, and this scene won't be possible using just Hornby items; hopefully the Hattons versions, when they arrive, will prove to have the same beefier profile of the latter, and mixing the two makes will give the desired effect.

Stroudley did build six wheelers, but the vast majority were only 28 feet long, and had only four first class compartments, so nothing in the Hornby range gets near this. I went for the lavatory composite - Stroudley built two of these, with a similar, but not identical, panelling arrangement, but only 30 feet long, a bit short but liveable with, I think.  He also built two five compartment firsts, but they were 33' 6" long, and actually had four full first compartments, and at one end there was a coupe (half) compartment which was provided with end windows, so not really a suitable candidate. 

Generically, on other lines, this squat profile seems to be associated with coaches from the 1870's and the vast majority of these would have been taken out of service well before the great war, so not really suitable for the proposed big  four and BR liveries, although the two LBSC composites did survive until 1918/20. If you are after stock that might have survived into the thirties, then the Hattons' ones are the ones to go for.

[Nick Holliday]

19 hours ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

Here's a question for those with more knowledge of Brighton coaches.

 

Firstly how to the 6 wheel coaches compare to LBSC 6 wheelers?

 

And for now ignoring the chassis. Would grafting 2 6 Wheel First bodies be close to a LBSC 6 Compt 1st like No. 7598 on the bluebell?  www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/coach7598.html

See my previous post with regard to your first question.

As for grafting two bodies together, the biggest problem is that, as I have noted, the Hornby coaches are to the lower Stroudley profile, and so you will need to form a new roof and raise the ends a couple of millimetres to match.  To copy the Bluebell example, you should really be thinking of applying window mouldings, although you could get away with it by modelling the almost identical Stroudley version, in which he introduced the higher roof pattern, but retained his window glass fixing from inside, which did not require an external bead, although they ran on some rather unusual bogies, at least when first built.

By the time you've sourced two bodies, and a pair of bogies plus other bits, and done a lot of delicate work, financially at least, you might be better off buying the Branchline's brass kit for it. If you've got the skills to do a good RTR bash, I'm sure you could handle the kit, although I appreciate the painting might be a step too far, but retaining the existing finish might be challenging too. Another alternative is to wait for the Hatton's versions, if there is a suitable donor, which should resolve the roof problem at least.

As an alternative, you could consider creating Stroudley's first eight wheeled coaches, six 7-compartment firsts, within a 49 foot body to his old profile.  Two Hornby bodies, either the 4-wheel first or the 6-wheel third (probably the easier option) could be spliced to form a 45' 6" foot version, which would be very different from anything else, even if a bit short, but being such an esoteric design, no-one is really going to notice. The coaches were originally built with Cleminson trucks to the outer pairs of wheels, but in 1893 were given normal Fox-type bogies, and were withdrawn around 1910.

[Butler Henderson]

On 09/02/2021 at 18:55, Nile said:

Are the NBR coaches actually painted? It doesn't look like the LBSCR ones I have are, apart from the roof.

Just received a LBSC first, definately painted but a touch too thinly on two doors with glowing doors when the lights are on. Body off, glazing removed  (just two glue spots at the bottom corners to ease) and a coat of paint on the inside.

[mozzer models]

here are my GWR 4  wheelers

IMG_20210212_123849 by brian mosby, on Flickr

[stephennicholson]

The last issue of the Brighton Circle Modellers digest has the latest in a series of articles about a lbsc travelling hand crane project beautifully built by Colin Paul.  The current issue describes building a Stroudley 3rd brake coach converted to a crew riding coach.

 

So my thoughts are:  Paint a Hornby "stroudley" brake 3rd grey plus add the correct door handles, and you have a nice coach to go with the Oxford Cowans Sheldon crane (swan neck) when it comes available - leaving just a tool van and match track to source. Whether that precise combination was prototypical, I dont know - but it feels like an interesting project.

 

I have bought the LSWR Hornby 4 wheelers with some missgivings, so I may pinch the most stroudley looking of them all for the above.

 

http://www.lbscr.org/Models/Digest/LBSCR-Modellers-Digest-12.pdf

[Pre Grouping fan]

5 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

See my previous post with regard to your first question.

As for grafting two bodies together, the biggest problem is that, as I have noted, the Hornby coaches are to the lower Stroudley profile, and so you will need to form a new roof and raise the ends a couple of millimetres to match.  To copy the Bluebell example, you should really be thinking of applying window mouldings, although you could get away with it by modelling the almost identical Stroudley version, in which he introduced the higher roof pattern, but retained his window glass fixing from inside, which did not require an external bead, although they ran on some rather unusual bogies, at least when first built.

By the time you've sourced two bodies, and a pair of bogies plus other bits, and done a lot of delicate work, financially at least, you might be better off buying the Branchline's brass kit for it. If you've got the skills to do a good RTR bash, I'm sure you could handle the kit, although I appreciate the painting might be a step too far, but retaining the existing finish might be challenging too. Another alternative is to wait for the Hatton's versions, if there is a suitable donor, which should resolve the roof problem at least.

As an alternative, you could consider creating Stroudley's first eight wheeled coaches, six 7-compartment firsts, within a 49 foot body to his old profile.  Two Hornby bodies, either the 4-wheel first or the 6-wheel third (probably the easier option) could be spliced to form a 45' 6" foot version, which would be very different from anything else, even if a bit short, but being such an esoteric design, no-one is really going to notice. The coaches were originally built with Cleminson trucks to the outer pairs of wheels, but in 1893 were given normal Fox-type bogies, and were withdrawn around 1910.

Thank you for your detailed comments.

 

Main reason for going this way is the panelling style and sizes match the prototype, and if my rough measurements are correct the 1st class compartments are a scale 8ft wide so also match. Looking at the Hattons coaches, they may have amore suitable roof profile but the panelling doesn't get close enough or the body styles offered in the first run are unsuitable.

 

Also, at the moment I don't possess the skills or tools to build and paint a coach from scratch like this which is why I thought about going down this route. I will do a bit more research into this and will look at my 4 wheelers when they arrive to consider if its actually possible.

[Butler Henderson]

R40119 everywhere including the catalogue is a LNWR 6 wheel 1st class except at Olvias who have it as an interior light fitted LB&SCR 4 wheel baggage brake that is apparently in stock  None of the baggage brakes are fitted with interior lights but surely that option should have existed.

[Pre Grouping fan]

31 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

R40119 everywhere including the catalogue is a LNWR 6 wheel 1st class except at Olvias who have it as an interior light fitted LB&SCR 4 wheel baggage brake that is apparently in stock  None of the baggage brakes are fitted with interior lights but surely that option should have existed.

Does seem odd. Must just be an error on their system. 

 

I can sort of see why they didn't offer a lit version of the baggage brake as it would be harder to hide the battery compartment in the floor. 

[mozzer models]

44 minutes ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

Does seem odd. Must just be an error on their system. 

 

I can sort of see why they didn't offer a lit version of the baggage brake as it would be harder to hide the battery compartment in the floor. 

it would not be that hard to hide the battery just mould a load of luggage to sit over it

[21C123]

Hi all

 

I am wanting to match the Hornby LBSCR colour, hopefully using humbrol paint.

 

does anyone have any mixing suggestions to start with  ?

 

thanks

 

Roger 

[BernardTPM]

How much light does luggage need though? As far as I know packing cases have no interest in reading newspapers, nor parcels in perusing light novels.

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, BernardTPM said:

How much light does luggage need though? As far as I know packing cases have no interest in reading newspapers, nor parcels in perusing light novels.

 

The guard needs enough light to see his watch and make entries in his journal. Also, at ill-lit stations (most wayside stations), it would be helpful to have some light on the parcels, luggage, etc. to see what needed to be unloaded.

[SHMD]

1 minute ago, BernardTPM said:

How much light does luggage need though? As far as I know packing cases have no interest in reading newspapers, nor parcels in perusing light novels.

 

..no but the guards duties then were very much more busy than now (ok different).

 

Then the guard was in charge of all the merchandise, on and off the train, as well as safety.

A lot of "everything" was loaded and unload enroute and he had to not only ensure the correct delivery but also all the paperwork too.

 

Every parcel, box, crate, milk churn, etc had to be labelled and legible even at night.

 

 

Kev.

[wainwright1]

12 hours ago, mozzer models said:

it would not be that hard to hide the battery just mould a load of luggage to sit over it

Just thinking.

Would there not be a partition between the Guards compartment and the luggage part of the coach ? This was the case on similar SER goods break vehicles, with either a door or open doorway between the two. Not sure if they had similar passenger vehicles.

If that were the case, you would just need to add a piece of plasticard or similar painted to the appropriate interior colour and the battery holder could be hidden behind it.

 

All the best

 

Ray

[Butler Henderson]

The supplied interior 

 

[The Johnster]

Parcels and mails were in separate piles for each individual en route destination, but the labels had to be read so lighting is needed, as well as for the ‘clerical aspects’ of the guards’ duties.  He is also responsible for the railway’s internal mail, and there should be a lockable cabinet for valuables.  He needs a seat and a desk.  There is a lot more in a brake coach than just the brake wheel; there is also a vacuum setter and gauge, emergency red painted screw coupling, wrecking gear, ladder, and first aid gear.

[Compound2632]

47 minutes ago, wainwright1 said:

Just thinking.

Would there not be a partition between the Guards compartment and the luggage part of the coach ? This was the case on similar SER goods break vehicles, with either a door or open doorway between the two. Not sure if they had similar passenger vehicles.

If that were the case, you would just need to add a piece of plasticard or similar painted to the appropriate interior colour and the battery holder could be hidden behind it.

 

All the best

 

Ray

 

Can't speak for Stroudley's designs but in general, no, not a full partition. In some (many?) cases a partition extending in 18" - 24" from the sides, screening the seat in the lookout.

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

There is a lot more in a brake coach than just the brake wheel; 

 

Not in this one! But at least it's there, which is a nice touch.

[The Johnster]

And at least the planked floor is represented!

[James Harrison]

25 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

And at least the planked floor is represented!

 

Just a pity you can't actually see it without first removing the body. I dunno, maybe they could have put a light in there? /circular reasoning