Hornby 2021 - 4 & 6 wheel period coaches

[D9020 Nimbus]

19 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Bearing in mind the slidey axles, how does a rake of the 6-wheelers get along when propelled? Especially through a reverse-curve / crossover. Do they waggle all over the place?

I've tried them through such a formation — Fleischmann Profi-Track, and including a double-slip, with no issues. They are not free-running, but the locos I've tested them with — Rails/Dapol Terrier, and Model Rail/Rapido 16xx — had no problems at all with two (the most I can easily fit on my test track).

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

I've tried them through such a formation — Fleischmann Profi-Track, and including a double-slip, with no issues. They are not free-running, but the locos I've tested them with — Rails/Dapol Terrier, and Model Rail/Rapido 16xx — had no problems at all with two (the most I can easily fit on my test track).

 

I suspect one would need more than two to see the effect I'm thinking of. Or is there some self-centering mechanism for the outer axles?

[The Johnster]

9 hours ago, RAYTHEROCK said:

Playing around with my set of 3 6-wheelers - would like to close up the gap between coaches but cannot find

anything suitable.

They have NEM pockets, IIRC?  Have a look at James' Trains on the Shapeways 3D printing site; an American bloke who does 'permanent' NEM fitting couplings for UK prototypes.  There are 3-link, instanter, and I beleive screw types, consisting of NEM 'beetle antennae' at each end of the print to fit into the pockets on the vehicles, and a representation of the coupling in between.  There are coupling bars of the same form to use between coaches as well.  I use the instanters and 3-link types on my coal trains; the instanters even have the little 'cow horns' that enable the shunter to change the instanter from the short to the long position and back with the pole without going in between the wagons.  The instanters are printed in the short position, but I am able to propel my coal trains through 2' Peco Streamline turnouts and a Hornby 3rd/2nd radius turnout without problems.  Buffer heads are about 1.5mm apart, closer than tension locks

 

James' trains couplings are a little brittle in sideways movement, but quite tough in pulling or propelling; they are probably best suited to stock that is not lifted off the layout frequently, though. I would not be able to testify as to their suitabiitity for propulsion through reverse curves of less than 2' radius or setrack reverse curves of R2 or less, or R1 at all.  That apart, a first class product unreservedly recommended, no connection satisfied customer.

 

Ideally of course passenger stock should have the buffer heads in contact at all times, achieved in real life by doing up the screw couplings until 2 threads are showing each side of the bottle screw (before anyone out-pedants me, I know there is only one thread on a screw coupling, that is in a helical screw form, but you know what I mean), curvature being handled by buffer compression, but this is not practical on model railways unless scale curvature is used.  This means a minimum radius of about 5 feet on running lines, and much larger than that if scale speeds of over about 25mph are needed, prohibitively large for most modellers, in addition to lightly sprung buffers and drawhooks (traditional scale coupling drawhook springs are far too strong, and the correct tension is difficult to maintain in the smaller scales).  Compromise is hence neccessary, and a small buffer gap has to be lived with.  This is an advantage of ECJS, Pullman, Gresley, Thompson, Bullied, and BR mk1 and 2 gangwayed stock in model form,  as these have 'buckeye' buffer/couplings ('Janney' if you are a US modeller, the type represented by Kadees) when coupled together or to some A3s and A4s, and the 'normal' buffers, used for coupling to non buckeye stock, are in a retracted position, with a gap being correct in this case. 

 

Screw couplings for passenger stock were used from very early days, back as far as the Liverpool and Manchester TTBOMK, and give a smoother ride while reducing the danger of 'snatching' and breaking the couplings, a problem in those days as the couplings were cast iron rather than steel, and prone to stress fractures.  'Passenger rated' stock to run in passenger trains, such as carriage trucks and horse boxes, were fitted with them as well.  This was the historical origin of what later became NPCCS and XP rated goods stock.

 

None of which is much use in solving your problem with the 4/6 wheelers, but may help as an explanation of why model railway couplings are the way they are...  The biggest problems are likely to be with sharp curvature and long rigid wheelbase stock, such as the 4/6 wheelers.  The innate sideplay flexibility of the NEM couplers helps, but there are clearly limits that defy compromise.

[SRman]

 

I succumbed and bought four of the LBSC 4-wheelers, with plans to buy four or five of the Hatton's coaches when they come along. I know these are all generic but they are better than anything I can knock up and paint, and fill a gap where I have locomotives and goods wagons for the pre-grouping railways, but no suitable coaches ... until now.

I posed the set with Terrier n0. 82, 'Boxhill', then actually ran the set with E4 579. The 4-wheelers are very free running, and tended to hunt slightly at slow speeds, so I will experiment with alternative couplings, hopefully closing the gaps a little in the process.

 

16 hours ago, Legend said:

Actually back in the 70s Graham Farish made generic coaches in OO and N . There were Corridor and Suburban types . I have three  LMS Suburban ones  and a  corridor one I got by mistake . They all date from 1978 and are very nicely finished. I think something similar in a range of pre grouping colours might have gone down very well .

 

Those Farish coaches did have some lovely lining, at least on the Southern Railway set. I scoured the web for a few more in any livery I could get, so they could be used to represent London Transport Dreadnought coaches to go with my Heljan Bo-Bo electric locos. I have experimented with various shades of brown, and I think they look good, even though, like the Hornby and Hatton's 4 and 6-wheel vehicles, these are entirely generic in nature, and not at all accurate for either Southern or LT types. They still look the part (photo added to illustrate the effect).

 

 

 

 

Edited February 18, 2021 by SRman
Fixing typos - I swear my typing is getting worse and worse!

[Nile]

On the subject of the LNWR coaches and the livery applied it might be worth looking at this page at Hatton's, of the only one so far released. The 'plumb' looks darker than on the earlier samples, dark enough?

[Chris116]

23 hours ago, SRman said:

Those Farish coaches did have some lovely lining, at least on the Southern Railway set. I scoured the web for a few more in any livery I could get, so they could be used to represent London Transport Dreadnought coaches to go with my Heljan Bo-Bo electric locos. I have experimented with various shades of brown, and I think they look good, even though, like the Hornby and Hatton's 4 and 6-wheel vehicles, these are entirely generic in nature, and not at all accurate for either Southern or LT types. They still look the part (photo added to illustrate the effect).
 

I am sure I have a number of those Farish coaches which are spare to the number I need for other duties and I also have a Metropolitan Bo-Bo so can you tell us which paint colour you have found to be the best? The train in the photo looks very impressive.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Chris116

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, Nile said:

On the subject of the LNWR coaches and the livery applied it might be worth looking at this page at Hatton's, of the only one so far released. The 'plumb' looks darker than on the earlier samples, dark enough?

It looks better to me, slightly odd that one appeared and not the matching coaches as you’d think they’d be a batch! Still they are listed as March in the original post so maybe the first batch will make it through soon. 

[SRman]

2 hours ago, Chris116 said:

I am sure I have a number of those Farish coaches which are spare to the number I need for other duties and I also have a Metropolitan Bo-Bo so can you tell us which paint colour you have found to be the best? The train in the photo looks very impressive.

The two end brake coaches are in 'proper' Cherry Paints LT brown, but I think it looks too dark. It may lighten a bit with matt varnish, but I haven't tried that. The lightest colour (I think Humbrol #118) seems a little too light to me, but I have been inclined to go with the intermediate shade (Humbrol Leather #62), perhaps with a bit of weathering grime added. I am still experimenting, tried Humbrol #70 as well, and there are still three shades of brown in use, but none left with the lightest and darkest tones. I'll have to take a more recent photo.

Eventually, the intention is that I'll hack the ends of the brakes to add real windows rather than the painted-on ones I have at present, and maybe I'll remove the duckets and drill out some extra windows for the guard's compartments.

One other improvement for running purposes was to fit metal wheelsets.

Edited February 19, 2021 by SRman

[GWR-fan]

I was able to purchase five of the Hornby GWR 4-wheel coaches.  I believe that these are pre-1908 livery.  Also have ordered ten of the Hattons Genesis cars in the same livery.  These will run with a few Hornby clerestories in the livery plus, not very prototypical,  but I have four of the Graham Farish non-corridor suburban coaches (two coaches and two brake cars) to use as well in that early livery.

 

I purchased the Hornby coaches as they were available,  as I do not know if my pre-order for the Hattons Genesis will be fulfilled when released in a few months.  I presume the GWR livery will be popular.

Edited February 19, 2021 by GWR-fan
Additional comment

[3rd Rail Exile]

5 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

I purchased the Hornby coaches as they were available,  as I do not know if my pre-order for the Hattons Genesis will be fulfilled when released in a few months.  I presume the GWR livery will be popular.

 I find it difficult to believe that Hattons would have supply quantity problems with their own commissions...  They've been on pre-order long enough to give a good idea of how many to get made, and this time it's their own call!  But I'm sure we'll cover that in the appropriate place at the appropriate time...

[SRman]

Going back to my comment in my earlier post regarding the Hornby tension lock couplings allowing the coaches to hunt a little, I tried some short Bachmann couplings, which reduced the inter-coach gaps a bit but still allowed the fore and aft movement, so I tehn tried some Roco close couplings. Those reduced the gap too much to the point that the buffers would not quite allow the coaches to traverse the tightest curves (radius 3), so it was then onto the Hornby close couplings that came with the Maunsell coaches. They seem to work fine - no problems to report yet.

And just tonight after getting home from a friend's place, I received an email from Kernow saying that they are now sendng my rake of LSWR liveried 4-wheelers.

[Guest]

I recently purchased two NBR six wheelers for my KESR layout and after inspecting them, decided to purchase a further four wheeled Brake third, which will need to be re-painted to reflect the more basic livery used by the KESR. It arrived yesterday and I am more than pleased with it. Apart from the two plain panels extending into the waistline it is virtually identical to the brake coaches purchased from the LSWR coaches in 1910. I chose the GWR model because the roof furniture most closely resembles that on the ex LSWR coaches :-

       

                              

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2021 by Guest

[wainwright1]

36 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

I recently purchased two NBR six wheelers for my KESR layout and after inspecting them, decided to purchase a further four wheeled Brake third, which will need to be re-painted to reflect the more basic livery used by the KESR. It arrived yesterday and I am more than pleased with it. Apart from the two plain panels extending into the waistline it is virtually identical to the brake coaches purchased from the LSWR coaches in 1910. I chose the GWR model because the roof furniture most closely resembles that on the ex LSWR coaches :-

       

                              

 

 

 

 

 

I see the resemblance. A little bit of work with a micro scalpel* and some fine Evergreen strip should convert that quite easily, especially if you are going to do a repaint anyway.

Might do one myself to go with the KESR terriers.

All the best

Ray

 

* Micro scalpels are available form Squires.

 

[Butler Henderson]

Fitted one of the light strips with two of the LEDs obscured with insulation tape, to the baggage brake to see how much was visible;

 

[mozzer models]

my LSWR coaches arrived to day

IMG_20210220_121913 by brian mosby, on Flickr

[Robin Brasher]

Looking forward to receiving mine but I don't think the LSWR coaches with lights have arrived in the shops yet.

[RAYTHEROCK]

My thanks to The Johnster for his long reply. Meantime I have fitted Kadee 18's into the sockets - much closer and both pull and propel around my layout without buffer locking. Curves are 36" radius. Might still change buffers for normal convex one instead of Stroudley's concave oddities and set them in a little bit more to give a little more clearance just in case.

[BlueLightning]

22 minutes ago, RAYTHEROCK said:

Stroudley's concave oddities

 

You appear to have misspelt "Hornby", Stroudley had no such thing as concave buffers.

 

Gary

[Londontram]

For any one that's got one and might know - being metal how receptive do you think the buffers would be to taking solder.

 I was wondering if the concave section could be in filled and then reprofiled with sand paper?

[Pre Grouping fan]

1 minute ago, Londontram said:

For any one that's got one and might know - being metal how receptive do you think the buffers would be to taking solder.

 I was wondering if the concave section could be in filled and then reprofiled with sand paper?

 

I don't know much about soldering but I would think you would have to heat it up quick to avoid transferring the heat to the buffer guides and melting them. 

 

Don't quote me but they look plated so solder may have trouble bonding. 

[BlueLightning]

38 minutes ago, Londontram said:

For any one that's got one and might know - being metal how receptive do you think the buffers would be to taking solder.

 I was wondering if the concave section could be in filled and then reprofiled with sand paper?

 

I don't think they would take it well, however I will be cutting mine of and replacing them with Markits sprung buffers, so happy to give it a try once they are off the carriage.

 

Gary

[PhilJ W]

Or fill them with Milliput and then sand and paint them.

[The Johnster]

Surely it would be easier to simply replace the buffers altogether.  They look a bit mushroom heady to me anyway.

 

Not sure what the shape of Stroudley's oddities has to do with anything.  I reckon that's his business.  But. leaving his oddities aside for a moment, concave or otherwise, what is it about his 4 wheelers?  Hornby, Hatton's Genesis, and Dapol 0 gauge have all gone for models of them or something fairly close to them.  Nowt wrong with the Brighton of course, or Stroudley, but a bit more variety might be appreciated in some quarters, at least to the extent of a different shape of brake third, one with the ducket away from the end...

[PatB]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

Surely it would be easier to simply replace the buffers altogether.  They look a bit mushroom heady to me anyway.

 

Not sure what the shape of Stroudley's oddities has to do with anything.  I reckon that's his business.  But. leaving his oddities aside for a moment, concave or otherwise, what is it about his 4 wheelers?  Hornby, Hatton's Genesis, and Dapol 0 gauge have all gone for models of them or something fairly close to them.  Nowt wrong with the Brighton of course, or Stroudley, but a bit more variety might be appreciated in some quarters, at least to the extent of a different shape of brake third, one with the ducket away from the end...

Availability of exemplars to measure up? Suitability for perhaps the most widely available r-t-r pre-Grouping loco in the shape of the Terrier, in its various incarnations (and yes, I know the old ex-Dapol model isn't actually pre-Grouping, whatever livery it might carry)?

[The Johnster]

That at least makes some sense of the situation; hadn't thought of it like that!  But there are other small pregrouping locos avaialable, or have been at various previous times.  Hornby; 2721, J83, J52, Adams Radial, Hattons SECR P, Heljan Beattie, Oxford Adams Radial, Bachmann Midland 1F and 1P Johnsons, and then there are the various Hornby Smokey Joe types, though I suppose the 'SDJR' 4 wheelers in various liveries go with those.