Hornby 2021 - 4 & 6 wheel period coaches

[Chris89]

Got some of the GNR for my birthday from my brother. Not yet tested the lights yet though. 
 

look the part with the single. 

[SDJR7F88]

Been working on converting a number of the gas lite varients into S&DJR Prussian blue, for my Somerset & Dorset layout Lyncombe Vale.

I've scratch built the lower running boards, which I feel instantly transforms these vehicles and gives them more of an S&DJR look. 

Here's the first nearing completion, which started off life as in NBR livery.

Edited March 23, 2021 by SDJR7F88

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, SDJR7F88 said:

Been working on converting a number of the gas lite varients into S&DJR Prussian blue, for my Somerset & Dorset layout Lyncombe Vale.

I've scratch built the lower running boards, which I feel instantly transforms these vehicles and gives them more of an S&DJR look. 

Here's the first nearing completion, which started off life as in NBR livery.

 

 

The big snag here is that the S&DJR had no lavatory 6-wheelers - the only lavatory carriages were some of the bogie carriages. The choice of a centre-lavatory rather than a centre-luggage composite remains to my mind the greatest blunder in both ranges. You can do something about those buffers but not about that.

 

The four compartment 6-wheeler would make a passable S&DJR carriage, though a bit over-long.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Compound2632

[SDJR7F88]

Just now, Compound2632 said:

 

The big snag here is that the S&DJR had no lavatory 6-wheelers - the only lavatory carriages were some of the bogie carriages. The choice of a centre-lavatory rather than a centre-luggage composite remains to my mind the greatest blunder in both ranges. You can do something about those buffers but not about that.

I know, but as they are 'Generic' I'm not to fussed. Beats the S&DJR Blue Dapol Stanier stock I was previously running 

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, SDJR7F88 said:

Beats the S&DJR Blue Dapol Stanier stock I was previously running 

 

Ah, but that you can repaint into LMS or BR crimson and it will be spot on!

 

I was hoping you would appreciate that my remarks were really directed at the manufacturers not at your handiwork.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Compound2632

[SDJR7F88]

2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

I was hoping you would appreciate that my remarks were really directed at the manufacturers not at your handiwork.

Na, don't worry I know that wasn't the case  

[Edwardian]

I was thinking again about how one might use the Hornby coaches.  There are various reasons why they are pretty un-generic, because they are too close to their Stroudley origins to be representatives of other types.  The detail on this came out in my assessment of the GW coaches, so I won't repeat it here, but probably the single most problematic feature is the lack of window bolections, which really limits them to Stroudley coaches.

 

In short, given that they are more Stroudley than generic, I wondered if they might be used reasonably as Stroudleys?

 

Well, I think we can discount the 6-wheelers for this purpose. I don't know that Hornby have actually made their 6-wheelers in LB&SCR livery.  There were Stroudley 6-wheelers, but none look a particularly good match in terms of length and/or appearance. 

 

So, we are looking at the 4-wheelers. 

 

These have a lot going for them as Stroudleys:

 

- Length: Like the Stroudleys (save the full brake), Hornby's scale out at 26'

- Height: They compare well in this regard when set against scale drawings

- Airbrake reservoir: What little is done in the brake department is clearly a Westinghouse system air cylinder, just like those used on the Stroudleys.

- Brake ends. These are so Stroudley. Other companies had end duckets and end windows going into them, sure, but the style of the ends and the sheeted duckets can really only be Stroudley. 

- Oil pots on the LB&SCR liveried examples

- Lamp spacing and half-height partitions also reflects the Stroudleys

 

So far, so good.

 

 

Picture from Hattons

 

There are a few  general points in reference to the picture above. 

 

First, the distinctively curly GW-pattern commode handles are no good. However, presumably they could be removed and replaced with the distinctively Brighton pattern.  Roxey do etches of them, or you can just bend wire. 

 

Second, as already mentioned, the position of the lower footboard is quite bonkers for any coach and betrays Hornby's prototype illiteracy, looking for all the world as if they'd hastily cobbled this project together from half-understood source material.  Fortunately, Stroudley didn't go in much for lower footboards, and these come unfitted with the Hornby model, so you can just leave them off.

 

Third, there is something where the upper footboard should be - the bottom of the solebar - but it is too shallow to serve as a footboard, so it looks like Hornby have confused an upper footboard with a steel channel solebar.  I think I would laminate a deeper board onto the model to cure this. 

 

Fourth, as Stephen Lea observed, those axleboxes are very distinctive and rather odd. Very not Stroudley, or anything helpful*. I would have to take a scalpel to them.  

 

Turning to the individual models, well, two of the four coaches are a reasonable match for Stroudleys. Two of them are less so.

 

The two that aren't great matches are:

 

- The full or luggage brake. This is because, although it apes the Stroudley style, it sticks to the 26' length of the other 3 (no doubt so that, quite sensible, it can share the common underframe and a roof with the brake third).  The Stroudley van, as well as having different panelling around the luggage doors, was only 20'; a striking visual difference.  

 

- The 4-compartment coach.  In compartment/panel width/spacing, this is not a particularly good match with any of the Stroudley Seconds, Firsts, Composites.  That said, it's not so wildly off that you mightn't get away with it.   

 

 The two Hornby coaches that are close to the Stroudleys are tantalisingly close. 

 

- The brake third

 

- The all third

 

The compartment/panel spacings, both on the horizontal and vertical divisions, are very much close enough for government work. 

 

The problem is that Hornby have inserted a little vertical recessed panel at the compartment ends.  This makes the distance between the quarter light and the coach end too long and in the wrong style. On the Stroudleys, there is no recessed panel here. The LB&SCR lining on the models emphasises the disparity. You can see that Hornby has reduced the width of the end quarter-light in order to insert this panel.  An odd thing to do.  It looks odd, and untypical as well as un-Stroudley, and once you've noticed it .... Carving out a full-width quarter-light and making good without compromising the cosmetic finish of the model (a big part of why you're buying it, right?), seems optimistic.  

 

    

 

Conclusion?

 

Well, I felt that the Third and Brake Third were so close to the Stroudleys that I thought very seriously about getting these. In the end, I decided not to.  There are several other routes to accurate models of these coaches and I wasn't prepared to accept the compromise. It didn't seem necessary to do so.

 

For many though, I think the Brake Third and Third, and to some extent the 4-compartment coach, if tweaked as described above, could result in a fair representation of some actual prototype coaches.  I'd probably skip the stretched full brake in favour of bracketing a set of these with brake thirds. 

 

I can't help thinking, though, that Hornby's resources would have been better employed either making truly generic coaches or, given that Hattons will fill that position with some very well-conceived and high-end generics, simply by making proper Stroudley coaches. More imaginative releases based on a better understanding of the subject matter would be my Thought for the Day for Messrs Derivative of Margate.

 

EDIT: * I think I know what those odd and distinctive axleboxes are. They look very like LB&SCR Marsh pattern axles boxes.  I've seen them retro-fitted to Billinton coaches in the Grouping area. Needless to say, they are wholly inappropriate for the mahogany liveried fake-Stroudley 4-wheelers.  They are, of course, too distinctive a pattern to be generic either. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Edwardian
Further information

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

The problem is that Hornby have inserted a little vertical recessed panel at the compartment ends.  This makes the distance between the quarter light and the coach end too long and in the wrong style. On the Stroudleys, there is no recessed panel here. The LB&SCR lining on the models emphasises the disparity. You can see that Hornby has reduced the width of the end quarter-light in order to insert this panel.  An odd thing to do.  It looks odd, and untypical as well as un-Stroudley, and once you've noticed it .... Carving out a full-width quarter-light and making good without compromising the cosmetic finish of the model (a big part of why you're buying it, right?), seems optimistic.  

 

On the prototype, a compartment partition was typically 1¼" - 1½ thick and the end wall around 3" - 3½". So, taking the smaller of those dimensions and compartments 5'5" wide between partitions (for a 28'0" length over body), with say 5'2" over the quarter-lights including frames, the gap between quarter-lights between two compartments would be 3" but between the end quarter-light and the end of the body, 4.5". This can be seen on the drawings and photos of Stroudley carriages @Edwardian has posted. I suppose Hornby's designer simply divided the overall length of the carriage by five and laid out the compartments accordingly, without reflecting that walls have thicknesses. Prototype innumeracy as much as illiteracy!

[PhilJ W]

Apart from the 4 wheel all third none seem a match for the LT&S stock.

[sem34090]

8 hours ago, SDJR7F88 said:

I know, but as they are 'Generic' I'm not to fussed. Beats the S&DJR Blue Dapol Stanier stock I was previously running 

Ah, Generic... If only! They'll do as a nice stand in though and you've done a lovely job on them!

[Compound2632]

Here's some real LBSCR carriage action. Possibly one early Stroudley carriage in with the mostly Billinton stock?

[Chris116]

13 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Here's some real LBSCR carriage action. Possibly one early Stroudley carriage in with the mostly Billinton stock?

Bad manners existed then with the gentleman who ran with the train to get in ahead of the ladies who he should have allowed to board first.

[PhilJ W]

26 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Here's some real LBSCR carriage action. Possibly one early Stroudley carriage in with the mostly Billinton stock?

 

11 minutes ago, Chris116 said:

Bad manners existed then with the gentleman who ran with the train to get in ahead of the ladies who he should have allowed to board first.

Apparently most of these early films were scripted. IIRC the lady with what looks like a sheet of paper in her hand is the film makers wife.

[Coppercap]

29 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

 

Apparently most of these early films were scripted. IIRC the lady with what looks like a sheet of paper in her hand is the film makers wife.

And with the ungentlemanly "gentleman" in the topper rushing to get into a THIRD class compartment - surely if he was for real, apart from his manners, he wouldn't be stooping to that low level...

Edited March 23, 2021 by Coppercap

[Edwardian]

I did mention, when considering the GW liveried Hornby 4-wheelers, the rather odd and distinctive axleboxes. Stephen Lea had been struck by them earlier.

 

I think I know what those odd and distinctive axleboxes are. They look very like LB&SCR Marsh pattern axles boxes.  I've seen them retro-fitted to Billinton coaches in the Grouping area. Needless to say, they are wholly inappropriate for the mahogany liveried faux-Stroudley 4-wheelers.

 

As well as anachronistic, they are, of course, too distinctive a pattern to be typical or generic.  

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Stephen Lea had been struck by them earlier.

 

Painful, it was. Being rather ignorant of things south of the river, to me they had a bit of a LNWR look to them - a bit, but not very. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Compound2632

[SDJR7F88]

The complete rake S&DJR Hornby 'Generic' four- & six-wheer repaints stand on Lyncombe Vale. Still a few minor details to finished, plus the addition passengers, but very happy overall. 

[Edwardian]

The more I look at my GW-liveried Hornby 4-wheelers, the more I conclude that they fail as generic coaches; they are just too close the their Stroudley origins to look like anything else, whatever livery you put them in.  My freelance conversion plan is, therefore, lacking motivation.

 

However, I want to do something with them; it's an itch I still need to scratch, so I decided to re-visit these as potential Stroudleys.

 

My first thoughts on this were:

 

 

On second thoughts, I wondered how hard it would be to correct the major flaw to the Third and Brake Third bodies.  The answer is 'not very hard at all'

 

 

Simply drilling out the quarter light to the correct width and removing the curly GW style commode handles, to my eyes, has the coach looking much more like a Stroudley. Sort out new commode handles, add the upper footboard, replace the buffers and axleboxes, and you're pretty much there. So, worth a go, I reckon. 

 

 

 

 

 

[stephennicholson]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

The more I look at my GW-liveried Hornby 4-wheelers, the more I conclude that they fail as generic coaches; they are just too close the their Stroudley origins to look like anything else, whatever livery you put them in.  My freelance conversion plan is, therefore, lacking motivation.

 

However, I want to do something with them; it's an itch I still need to scratch, so I decided to re-visit these as potential Stroudleys.

 

My first thoughts on this were:

 

 

On second thoughts, I wondered how hard it would be to correct the major flaw to the Third and Brake Third bodies.  The answer is 'not very hard at all'

 

 

Simply drilling out the quarter light to the correct width and removing the curly GW style commode handles, to my eyes, has the coach looking much more like a Stroudley. Sort out new commode handles, add the upper footboard, replace the buffers and axleboxes, and you're pretty much there. So, worth a go, I reckon. 

 

 

 

 

 

My conversion to a LBSCR departmental van (inspiration from here)

- new spoked wheels (dont count the spokes!)

- convert to gas lighting. Tanks from brass tube, gas lanterns are midland - but I think similar enough

- add roxey handles to selected doors (the others being locked out). A very fiddly job, would welcome tips, as I still have the other side to do.

- paint and transfers

- foot boards. reposition Hornby supplied (albeit incorrect length) and added the missing lower one made from plasticard and wire.

 

 

[Edwardian]

Oh that's excellent, Stephen.  It's good to see someone having fun with these coaches to produce something that really fits the bill. 

 

I was thinking of adding some styrene for the upper board.  Fortunately, save for the guard's compartments, there aren't any lower boards on the Stroudley, so the odd height chosen for these by Hornby doesn't matter, as we can just leave them off. 

 

Roxey do etches for the commode handles, but, of course, they come out rather flat.  I was thinking of wire bending, which looks like your solution. It works really well.  I was idly toying with the idea of a jig for bending them, to achieve some standardisation if I need a lot.  Do you recall what sort of wire you used? 

 

EDIT: Sorry, you said you used Roxey handles.  In which case they look a lot better than I anticipated.

Edited March 31, 2021 by Edwardian

[stephennicholson]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

Oh that's excellent, Stephen.  It's good to see someone having fun with these coaches to produce something that really fits the bill. 

 

I was thinking of adding some styrene for the upper board.  Fortunately, save for the guard's compartments, there aren't any lower boards on the Stroudley, so the odd height chosen for these by Hornby doesn't matter, as we can just leave them off. 

 

Roxey do etches for the commode handles, but, of course, they come out rather flat.  I was thinking of wire bending, which looks like your solution. It works really well.  I was idly toying with the idea of a jig for bending them, to achieve some standardisation if I need a lot.  Do you recall what sort of wire you used? 

 

EDIT: Sorry, you said you used Roxey handles.  In which case they look a lot better than I anticipated.

I did have ago at bending wire, but gave it up - I think a jig would be the answer.  I then unearthed a part used etch with enough handles for this job. 

[Nick Holliday]

1 hour ago, stephennicholson said:

My conversion to a LBSCR departmental van (inspiration from here)

- add roxey handles to selected doors (the others being locked out). A very fiddly job, would welcome tips, as I still have the other side to do.

 

Just a small point, but the LBSC door grab rails were at 45° to the bodywork, and not perpendicular.

[cessna152towser]

On 21/03/2021 at 22:10, DrStroganoff said:

I was having trouble with the coach lights turning themselves on and off randomly.

I have not had an issue with the coach lights turning themselves off randomly but a few times they have come on randomly if the coach gets bumped while being lifted on or off the layout.    Also when re-packing the coach in its box, the proximity of the magnet within the box sometimes caused the lights to come on.   I have four of these coaches, only one with lights and have solved this problem by storing the magnet with one of the non maglight coaches when the coaches are not in use.

[stephennicholson]

42 minutes ago, Nick Holliday said:

Just a small point, but the LBSC door grab rails were at 45° to the bodywork, and not perpendicular.

thanks, presumably angled away from the door?  Should be easy enough to bend.

[Edwardian]

17 minutes ago, stephennicholson said:

thanks, presumably angled away from the door?  Should be easy enough to bend.

 

Yes

 

EDIT: The brake thirds appear to have them on the right-hand door, angled away from the left-hand door.

 

The left hand handle is mounted on the side of the ducket.

Edited March 31, 2021 by Edwardian