Hornby 2021 - 4 & 6 wheel period coaches

[Compound2632]

  

23 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

For those considering re-liverying the Hornby generics, I have one word of caution; bolections.

 

I know this may seem a minor feature, but it is one that has a reasonably obvious visual impact.

 

The venerable Triang clerestories - a mainstay of pre-grouping coach-bashing - also lack proper raised bolection mouldings. (This is one of a number of details that make it frustratingly unsatisfactory to cut'n'shut them with sides from the Ratio GW 4-wheelers.) However, their quarter-lights don't run right up to the beading as on the Hornby carriages: there is a lip that can be painted mahogany-colour.

 

As well as the lack of the bolection moulding, because the quarter lights run right up to the beading, they are over-large for most carriages of the period, as a glance at the photos in @Edwardian's post reveals. Is Hornby's glazing moulded to fit the window openings? If so, one possible dodge to improve the appearance a bit might be to paint the sides of the raised part mahogany colour - and the window reveals in the body too.

 

For those who, unlike Hornby's designers, may be innocently unfamiliar with this style of carriage construction, the attached extract from a Midland Railway drawing of 1882 shows what we're talking about. The bolection moulding is the darker-brown-shaded piece that looks, in section, like a cat that's just heard the tin-opener. It sits in a rebate in the main timber framing of the carriage (shaded lighter brown), holding the glass (blue shaded) in place. It performs the same function as the putty in a traditional domestic window but has the advantage that it can be un-nailed for ease of replacement of the glass. (Breakages were not that uncommon.) To the left can be seen a piece of plain panelling, also shaded dark brown. The beading is also shaded dark brown to the right but the draughtsman (I nearly wrote artist) has forgotten to shade it in on the left. 

 

 

[Midland Railway Study Centre Item 88-D0001; the whole drawing can be inspected here] 

  

23 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

a practice long established at Derby and pretty universal elsewhere by fitting them from the outside and covering the edges with the moulding strips we call bolections.

 

I suspect that this method of construction may have been brought to Derby from Swindon by T.G. Clayton in 1873. It is certainly very widespread in the last quarter of the 19th century (and on LMS-built carriages up to c. 1930). Were there are exceptions, they generally go hand-in-hand with panelling styles that are fundamentally different from the round-cornered style represented by both the Hornby and Hattons carriages. Clayton himself changed over to having the bolections on the inside on the clerestory carriages with square-cornered windows and beading built from 1896.

 

  

23 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Some while ago a gentleman displayed his Hornby generics repainted in S&DJR blue. A very good job he made of them too.  He was picked up for the fact that the S&DJR didn't have that particular type of coach.

 

I'm sorry if I cam over as quite so censorious of @SDJR7F88's efforts. I think what I was trying to say was that there are two or three vehicles in the Hattons range that are much closer to genuine S&DJR carriages (freakishly so, one might think).

  

23 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Now, not knowing anything about S&DJR coaches, I would not have noticed that. What leapt out at me was the lack of that signature varnished wood border to the windows, the bolection.

 

Take a preserved S&DJR vehicle.  The bolection mouldings are rather thicker than Billinton's,  Again, see how an absolutely a key part of its appearance is conferred by the contrasting varnished wood of the fixed light bolections, every bit as essential in that regard as the drop lights, against the blue paint work.

 

The S&DJR panelling style is pure Derby, which is closely related to Swindon style, so these comments apply with especial weight to the Great Western-liveried carriages. Compare some restored carriages at Didcot: their bogie third and 4-wheel brake third. With Great Western carriages, the effect is all the more striking for the droplight frames being treated the same way.

  

23 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Note also in reference to both photographs that, unlike Hornby's treatment, lining is typically not applied around fixed lights; the bolection provides the visual border.   

 

This is a trap that Hattons nearly fell into a couple of times. In fact I'm not quite sure of the lining round the bolections on their LBSCR, SECR, and SR livery samples recently revealed but those liveries are a bit out of my comfort zone.

 

23 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Well, for converting the Hornby near-Stroudley generics into something like proper Stroudleys, the lack of bolections is a boon.  For all other liveries and purposes, it's a pain. So much so, in fact, that if I am to get any use out of the GW-liveried 4-wheelers, I think I must try to retro-fit a thin shim around the fixed light apertures to represent bolections. 

 

My feeling is that it will be difficult to achieve a satisfactory result. Perhaps they're better off as freelance carriages of 1870s vintage.

[SDJR7F88]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

 

Some while ago a gentleman displayed his Hornby generics repainted in S&DJR blue. A very good job he made of them too.  He was picked up for the fact that the S&DJR didn't have that particular type of coach. Now, not knowing anything about S&DJR coaches, I would not have noticed that. What leapt out at me was the lack of that signature varnished wood border to the windows, the bolection.

 

Morning Edwardian.

 

Thanks for the feed back on the S&DJR coaches. Will look out for a suitable paint and get around to adding the vanished wood boards

[Pre Grouping fan]

Here's a cruel close up of a compartment on my brighton first. They may not be proper bollection but it does the job.

 

I used phoenix precision mahogany, I will probably do the same to the droplight frames to make them match as well before final assembly. 

 

 

[Compound2632]

23 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

My feeling is that it will be difficult to achieve a satisfactory result. 

 

5 minutes ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

Here's a cruel close up of a compartment on my brighton first. They may not be proper bollection but it does the job.

 

I used phoenix precision mahogany, I will probably do the same to the droplight frames to make them match as well before final assembly. 

 

Good. You're already proving me wrong!

[t-b-g]

26 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

  

 

The venerable Triang clerestories - a mainstay of pre-grouping coach-bashing - also lack proper raised bolection mouldings. (This is one of a number of details that make it frustratingly unsatisfactory to cut'n'shut them with sides from the Ratio GW 4-wheelers.) However, their quarter-lights don't run right up to the beading as on the Hornby carriages: there is a lip that can be painted mahogany-colour.

 

As well as the lack of the bolection moulding, because the quarter lights run right up to the beading, they are over-large for most carriages of the period, as a glance at the photos in @Edwardian's post reveals. Is Hornby's glazing moulded to fit the window openings? If so, one possible dodge to improve the appearance a bit might be to paint the sides of the raised part mahogany colour - and the window reveals in the body too.

 

For those who, unlike Hornby's designers, may be innocently unfamiliar with this style of carriage construction, the attached extract from a Midland Railway drawing of 1882 shows what we're talking about. The bolection moulding is the darker-brown-shaded piece that looks, in section, like a cat that's just heard the tin-opener. It sits in a rebate in the main timber framing of the carriage (shaded lighter brown), holding the glass (blue shaded) in place. It performs the same function as the putty in a traditional domestic window but has the advantage that it can be un-nailed for ease of replacement of the glass. (Breakages were not that uncommon.) To the left can be seen a piece of plain panelling, also shaded dark brown. The beading is also shaded dark brown to the right but the draughtsman (I nearly wrote artist) has forgotten to shade it in on the left. 

 

 

[Midland Railway Study Centre Item 88-D0001; the whole drawing can be inspected here] 

  

 

I suspect that this method of construction may have been brought to Derby from Swindon by T.G. Clayton in 1873. It is certainly very widespread in the last quarter of the 19th century (and on LMS-built carriages up to c. 1930). Were there are exceptions, they generally go hand-in-hand with panelling styles that are fundamentally different from the round-cornered style represented by both the Hornby and Hattons carriages. Clayton himself changed over to having the bolections on the inside on the clerestory carriages with square-cornered windows and beading built from 1896.

 

  

 

I'm sorry if I cam over as quite so censorious of @SDJR7F88's efforts. I think what I was trying to say was that there are two or three vehicles in the Hattons range that are much closer to genuine S&DJR carriages (freakishly so, one might think).

  

 

The S&DJR panelling style is pure Derby, which is closely related to Swindon style, so these comments apply with especial weight to the Great Western-liveried carriages. Compare some restored carriages at Didcot: their bogie third and 4-wheel brake third. With Great Western carriages, the effect is all the more striking for the droplight frames being treated the same way.

  

 

This is a trap that Hattons nearly fell into a couple of times. In fact I'm not quite sure of the lining round the bolections on their LBSCR, SECR, and SR livery samples recently revealed but those liveries are a bit out of my comfort zone.

 

 

My feeling is that it will be difficult to achieve a satisfactory result. Perhaps they're better off as freelance carriages of 1870s vintage.

 

That is a good summary of the situation but I would query the comment about the drawing and the draftsman having forgotten to shade the beading. The dark brown colour represents timber that is cut through by the section as it was drawn. The dark brown to the left is a solid panel, as the beading can be seen above it. To the right is a door and the brown bits there are a section through the vertical beading either side of the door opening.

 

On the other hand, I have just re-read your your words and I think I have mis-interpreted what you were saying! I can now see the bit he forgot to shade. Apologies! You were quite right!  

Edited April 9, 2021 by t-b-g

[Compound2632]

Just now, t-b-g said:

That is a good summary of the situation but I would query the comment about the drawing and the draftsman having forgotten to shade the beading. The dark brown colour represents timber that is cut through by the section as it was drawn. The dark brown to the left is a solid panel, as the beading can be seen above it. To the right is a door and the brown bits there are a section through the vertical beading either side of the door opening. 

 

[Edwardian]

With reference to what Compound suggests, Pre-Grouping Fan has done with the SR version and what SDJR7F88 says he may do - paint the fixed light returns - that seems to me really worthwhile and will help lift these liveries.  

 

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

  

 

The venerable Triang clerestories - a mainstay of pre-grouping coach-bashing - also lack proper raised bolection mouldings. (This is one of a number of details that make it frustratingly unsatisfactory to cut'n'shut them with sides from the Ratio GW 4-wheelers.) However, their quarter-lights don't run right up to the beading as on the Hornby carriages: there is a lip that can be painted mahogany-colour.

 

Yes, but rather like painting the window rebates, it allows an impression of the correct livery to be achieved.  

 

 

Quote

 

This is a trap that Hattons nearly fell into a couple of times. In fact I'm not quite sure of the lining round the bolections on their LBSCR, SECR, and SR livery samples recently revealed but those liveries are a bit out of my comfort zone.

 

Stroudley 6-wheel D37 First No.661 was restored in painted mahogany.

 

It has lining around the fixed lights.

 

However, it's a Stroudley, so has no bolections.

 

It is hard to find a clear enough picture of a Billinton coach (with bolections) in mahogany livery to tell if the practice of lining round the fixed lights was continued. I'm sceptical that it would have been.   

 

The clearest picture I have seen is of bogie Lav Comp No.484 to diagram D66/90.  It is hard to distinguish between the reflection of light on polished wood edges and gold lining, however, I cannot detect a second light line, to the outside of the bolections.  The same is true of a picture of a Royal coach. 

 

My judgment is that there would not have been lining around the outside of the bolections. Thus, I suspect that I will paint over the lining on the Hattons coaches; there are good matches to a couple of Billinton 6-wheelers that otherwise do not require repainting to convert.

 

Hattons have numbered their LB&SCR coaches with Stroudley numbers, despite the fact that the dimensions of the coaches and the inclusion of bolections makes them much more characteristic of Billinton designs. 

 

So, it is internally logical for them to line the coaches as if they were Stroudleys.    

 

Quote

 

My feeling is that it will be difficult to achieve a satisfactory result. Perhaps they're better off as freelance carriages of 1870s vintage.

 

I am tempted to sell on the GW liveried Hornbys and confine myself to the Hattons. Hornby's were never my first choice for freelance conversions, but I thought I'd see what I could make of them, and I still might.

 

If I persist, a might see if a thin simple bolection moulding with styrene, rather like Billinton's, might be inserted.  It's a faff even it it works, but may prove worth the effort.  

 

 

 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Edwardian
spelling!

[Compound2632]

32 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Stroudley 6-wheel D37 First No.661 was restored in painted mahogany.

 

It has lining around the fixed lights.

 

However, it's a Stroudley, so has no bolections.

 

It is hard to find a clear enough picture of a Billinton coach (with bolections) in mahogany livery to tell if the practice of lining round the fixed lights was continued. I'm sceptical that it would have been.   

 

The clearest picture I have seen is of bogie Lav Comp No.484 to diagram D66/90.  It is hard to distinguish between the reflection of light on polished wood edges and gold lining, however, I cannot detect a second light line, to the outside of the bolections.  The same is true of a picture of a Royal coach. 

 

See also, and please comment on, my post in the Hattons thread. The only one of their three latest painting samples I'm really confident about being wrong is the Southern one:

 

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

See also, and please comment on, my post in the Hattons thread. The only one of their three latest painting samples I'm really confident about being wrong is the Southern one:

 

 

I have seen your post, now, thanks, and answered it.

 

Some significant decorative issues.  Please tell Dave!

 

 

[BlueLightning]

Finally got all the things needed for re-Strouley-ifying the Hornby coaches, and as such they will be featuring in my weekly YouTube livestream this Sunday at 9pm (BST) (There will also be a video for those that don't want to sit through me upgrading them in real time).

 

https://www.youtube.com/OakHillModelRailway

 

[wainwright1]

22 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

I have seen your post, now, thanks, and answered it.

 

Some significant decorative issues.  Please tell Dave!

 

 

Still no change to the inappropriate shade of red for the SE & CR ones !

Ray

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, wainwright1 said:

Still no change to the inappropriate shade of red for the SE & CR ones !

 

Perhaps better said in the appropriate thread, but hasn't that been gone over already? 

[wainwright1]

14 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Perhaps better said in the appropriate thread, but hasn't that been gone over already? 

It was discussed on this thread and I sent a detailed copy to Hattons as well, which was acknowledged.

Ray

Edited April 10, 2021 by wainwright1

[Nile]

On 09/04/2021 at 17:14, BlueLightning said:

Finally got all the things needed for re-Strouley-ifying the Hornby coaches, and as such they will be featuring in my weekly YouTube livestream this Sunday at 9pm (BST) (There will also be a video for those that don't want to sit through me upgrading them in real time).

Hello Gary, are they printed footboards in that pile of goodies? And did you get round to doing a video review of the 6-wheelers?

[BlueLightning]

Nile,

 

Yes 3D printed footboards to be at the correct height for Stroudley's these came from @ianmaccormac along with 9 spoke wheel centres, the parts can be seen on his blog here https://ianmaccormacmodels.blogspot.com/2021/03/Hornby-4-wheeler-accessorising.html he also does a replacement etched chassis for those wanting to go to that level.

 

The 6 wheeler review is still coming, the person providing the lavatory carriage for me to review has just moved house, so has not been able to send it down yet.

 

Gary

[BlueLightning]

Just a reminder for those that are interested that I will be playing with these coaches live at 9pm (BST) tonight, this will be followed by a video in the near future for those that don't want to have to watch in real time, this may not be this week as I have become rather busier than usual recently, but will be soon.

 

Gary

 

 

[HonestTom]

On 11/04/2021 at 14:50, BlueLightning said:

Just a reminder for those that are interested that I will be playing with these coaches live at 9pm (BST) tonight, this will be followed by a video in the near future for those that don't want to have to watch in real time, this may not be this week as I have become rather busier than usual recently, but will be soon.

 

Gary

 

 

Many thanks for this. I invested in some of the grab handles and I must confess that I was sweating slightly over how best to attach them.

[AY Mod]

I've not got the chance to review all the pages for the answer to this question I'm sorry to say; but was there an actual Stroudley 4-wheel baggage/full brake vehicle?

 

I'm doing a review of the model piece of fiction and at least would like to know if I'm trying to say it's a faithful reproduction of something or whether I'm just Newt Scamander.

[Pre Grouping fan]

There was a similar vehicle but its too long for the actual diagram which I don't the actual length or diagram off the top of my head.

 

Some other people have said the panelling spacing is wrong even if a cut and shut job was to be done. 

[Steamport Southport]

Yes. 20 foot though so I expect it to be a bit shorter than the RTR version.

 

https://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/product/66/4c64-20ft-four-wheel-full-brake/

 

 

The 26 foot version was six wheeled. I know that isn't the same type, just posting for comparison.

 

https://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/product/64/4c66-26ft-six-wheel-full-brake/

 

 

Jason

Edited April 13, 2021 by Steamport Southport

[AY Mod]

Thank you both! Even worse was the fact the model is the BR Crimson thing. Well at least the number matches.

[BlueLightning]

2 hours ago, HonestTom said:

Many thanks for this. I invested in some of the grab handles and I must confess that I was sweating slightly over how best to attach them.

 

Glad to be of help!

[BlueLightning]

45 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

I've not got the chance to review all the pages for the answer to this question I'm sorry to say; but was there an actual Stroudley 4-wheel baggage/full brake vehicle?

 

I'm doing a review of the model piece of fiction and at least would like to know if I'm trying to say it's a faithful reproduction of something or whether I'm just Newt Scamander.

 

I hear someone did an in depth look, and even a video over on YouTube comparing them to the prototype (Video includes comparisons to drawings of the closest prototypes)

 

I hope those can prove to be of some use to save you having to do the 11 or so hours of research I did!

 

Gary

 

 

 

[Edwardian]

31 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

I've not got the chance to review all the pages for the answer to this question I'm sorry to say; but was there an actual Stroudley 4-wheel baggage/full brake vehicle?

 

I'm doing a review of the model piece of fiction and at least would like to know if I'm trying to say it's a faithful reproduction of something or whether I'm just Newt Scamander.

 

Diagram D47/222.  A revised panel design introducing a turn-under adopted in either 1878 or 1882. It was 20' over the body with a 12'3" w/b.

 

They were probably the only Stroudley 4-wheelers top make it into the 1903 white and umber.

 

The picture below shows clearly the distinctive panel arrangement around the luggage door hinges.

 

The Hornby model, which is a scale 26' over the body, shares its roof with the brake third vehicle, has an extraneous light above the luggage compartment.

 

 

 

[AY Mod]

Well, that's been an illuminating experience.

 

Bring back Battlespace.