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Hornby 2021 - 4 & 6 wheel period coaches


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7 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

The most dificult thing to assemble is the LRM kit but it isn't that difficult. 

 

I've done it, as only my second or third whitemetal kit, so it's evidently not that challenging.

 

8 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

RTR POW

 

Beware the "generic" RCH 1923 12 ton mineral wagon masquerading in liveries appropriate to pre-grouping 10 ton wagons! (Dissatisfaction will set it at about the same point as with the RTR carriages, leading to "proper modelling".)

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13 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 

The most dificult thing to assemble is the LRM kit but it isn't that difficult.

 

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I've done it, as only my second or third whitemetal kit, so it's evidently not that challenging.

 

 

The D16 is a very nice simple kit, much easier than a good number of other whitemetal kits. The fold up brass chassis presents the only real challenge in getting it nice and square, if challenge is even the right word for it! Goes together very well indeed, and is a lovely route into kit building when you take that step beyond plastic kits.

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2 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

To my knowledge Bachmann produce two LNWR locomotives, one of which is in very late LNWR/early LMS condition. The ROD 2-8-0 isn't a LNWR design, was only in LNWR service post WW1 (1919) and was, like the LNWR G2, probably only used as a goods loco.

 

When the Locomotion 2-4-0 Jumbo is released, LNWR collectors will then have two LNWR period locos to choose from, the other being the Coal Tank. This, surprisingly has never been made available in LNWR lined livery. 

 

How much of an opportunity this presents Hatton's and Hornby to sell inaccurate LNWR 4 and 6 wheel carriages is anyone's guess. 

Apologies for my confusion, which predated my dotage by several decades.  Who produced the Webb Coal Tank? thought that was  blue box, and in my fuzzy brained way I thought there was a 2-4-2T as well but I could well be thinking of the L & Y loco; these two railways are closely connected in the shattered and largely abandoned remnants of what was once, they tell my, a finely tuned instrument, my brain.

 

The G2a was used for passenger work at Abergavenny (steam age spelling) and Tredegar.  They were 'standard issue' on Tredegar-Barry Island excursions, WR reporting number 058, and worked via Bird in Hand, Hengoed, Ystrad Mynach, Aber Jc, Walnut Tree viaduct, and the Barry main line to Cadoxton.  I agree they were generally used for goods and mineral work elsewhere, but South Wales is usually different in some way or other, we take a pride in being awkwrad...  The Abergavenny locos were also used as bankers up to Llanvihangel.  4 or 6 wheelers would have been going out of use at the Grouping, and the older non-gangwayed bogie stock supplanting them as they were cascaded, and of course all sorts of inherited LMS stock was used post grouping, but I would have thought the South Wales G2as hauled 6 and probably 4 wheeled stock in LNWR livery.  The Coad Tanks, also to be found at Abergavenny and Tredegar, would certainly have. 

 

The LNW had an extensive network in South Wales and close ties in the form of a controlling interest in the  Rhymney, which it had bailed out when that company got into financial difficulties building the Caerphilly Tunnel.  The LNW had absorbed the Merthyr, Tredegar, and Abergavenny, a difficult route with vicious gradients and appalling weather to contend with, and the Tredegar Tramroad from it's end on junction with the GW at Nine Mile Point (the halfway mark of the tramroad, where stables had been provided to change the horses); it had running powers via Cross Keys on the Western Valley line into Newport High Street..  It also had a branch from Brynmawr to Blaenavon (steam era spelling), and one from Nantybwch on the MT&A route to an end on junction with the Rhymney, which it allowed to continue to work it's own line but used it as a through freight and mineral route to and from Cardiff.  It had a goods warehouse at Cardiff Docks (the building survives as yuppie flats) and kept a loco at the Rhymney's shed at East Dock to shunt it.  I believe this was a Ramsbottom saddle tank, which rejoiced in the name of 'Earl of Dumfries', one of the titles held by the Marquises of Bute.

 

At Swansea it ran into it's own Victoria terminus from the south west. diematetrically opposite to the direction you'd assume, having reached the shore of Swansea Bay via the Clyne Valley  at the southern of it's Central Wales line from Craven Arms on the North to West main line, which it ran jointly with the GW south of Shrewsbury to Abergavenny.  As well as lines in the Swansea Dock network, it also had a branch from Gowerton to Penclawdd on the north coast of Gower, which at one time had a goods extention to Llanrhidian.  IIRC it also had running powers over the Llandeilo-Carmarthen GW line.  G2s and G2as were allocated to their Paxton Street shed in Swansea, but AFAIK not involved in passenger work; this was, again, the preserve of Webb Coal tanks locally, and Precursor tanks for the through Shrewsbury trains

Edited by The Johnster
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5 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Apologies for my confusion, which predated my dotage by several decades.  Who produced the Webb Coal Tank? thought that was  blue box, and in my fuzzy brained way I thought there was a 2-4-2T as well but I could well be thinking of the L & Y loco;

 

Hi John, Bachmann produce by the Webb Tank and the Lanky Radial. 

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13 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

In that case virtually all of Bachmanns announcements would be considered dead, which largely is not the case.

 

Have been looking through Cheona Rly in Profile No.8 BR Engineer's Stock - 2 which has photos of a number which may or may not easily be represented by the generic offerings;

 

 

 

Four wheelers shown (all disc wheels) are:

 

W81W, a Dean four compartment Composite "Tool Van  Oswestry Electricans"  ; stove pipe added. (Porthmadog 1958) [plate 75]

 

W14913, a five compartment all 3rd in use as Staff and Tool van based at Plymouth (Par 1958) [plate 76]

 

The latter two are best represented by Ratio kits. My own effort inspired by the first of them is here:

4 wheel engineers coach (ex GW)

 

 

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16 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Apologies for my confusion, which predated my dotage by several decades.  Who produced the Webb Coal Tank? thought that was  blue box, and in my fuzzy brained way I thought there was a 2-4-2T as well but I could well be thinking of the L & Y loco; these two railways are closely connected in the shattered and largely abandoned remnants of what was once, they tell my, a finely tuned instrument, my brain.

 

The G2a was used for passenger work at Abergavenny (steam age spelling) and Tredegar.  They were 'standard issue' on Tredegar-Barry Island excursions, WR reporting number 058, and worked via Bird in Hand, Hengoed, Ystrad Mynach, Aber Jc, Walnut Tree viaduct, and the Barry main line to Cadoxton.  I agree they were generally used for goods and mineral work elsewhere, but South Wales is usually different in some way or other, we take a pride in being awkwrad...  The Abergavenny locos were also used as bankers up to Llanvihangel.  4 or 6 wheelers would have been going out of use at the Grouping, and the older non-gangwayed bogie stock supplanting them as they were cascaded, and of course all sorts of inherited LMS stock was used post grouping, but I would have thought the South Wales G2as hauled 6 and probably 4 wheeled stock in LNWR livery.  The Coad Tanks, also to be found at Abergavenny and Tredegar, would certainly have. 

 

The LNW had an extensive network in South Wales and close ties in the form of a controlling interest in the  Rhymney, which it had bailed out when that company got into financial difficulties building the Caerphilly Tunnel.  The LNW had absorbed the Merthyr, Tredegar, and Abergavenny, a difficult route with vicious gradients and appalling weather to contend with, and the Tredegar Tramroad from it's end on junction with the GW at Nine Mile Point (the halfway mark of the tramroad, where stables had been provided to change the horses); it had running powers via Cross Keys on the Western Valley line into Newport High Street..  It also had a branch from Brynmawr to Blaenavon (steam era spelling), and one from Nantybwch on the MT&A route to an end on junction with the Rhymney, which it allowed to continue to work it's own line but used it as a through freight and mineral route to and from Cardiff.  It had a goods warehouse at Cardiff Docks (the building survives as yuppie flats) and kept a loco at the Rhymney's shed at East Dock to shunt it.  I believe this was a Ramsbottom saddle tank, which rejoiced in the name of 'Earl of Dumfries', one of the titles held by the Marquises of Bute.

 

At Swansea it ran into it's own Victoria terminus from the south west. diematetrically opposite to the direction you'd assume, having reached the shore of Swansea Bay via the Clyne Valley  at the southern of it's Central Wales line from Craven Arms on the North to West main line, which it ran jointly with the GW south of Shrewsbury to Abergavenny.  As well as lines in the Swansea Dock network, it also had a branch from Gowerton to Penclawdd on the north coast of Gower, which at one time had a goods extention to Llanrhidian.  IIRC it also had running powers over the Llandeilo-Carmarthen GW line.  G2s and G2as were allocated to their Paxton Street shed in Swansea, but AFAIK not involved in passenger work; this was, again, the preserve of Webb Coal tanks locally, and Precursor tanks for the through Shrewsbury trains

Mea culpa, when I started to write my post I forget the ROD 2-8-0 (I don't consider it a LNWR locomotive) so yes, Bachmann market three "LNWR" locos.

 

The G2 or G2A (I'm not sure which the Bachmann model is suppose to represent ,their website says G2A) is the G Class 0-8-0 with Belpaire firebox/boiler in very late LNWR G2 condition or LMS condition as a G2a. So to model the LNWR pre 1919/20, there is the Coal Tank and the forthcoming 2-4-0 Precedent.

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On 10/01/2021 at 18:48, Steamport Southport said:

 

I think they've already got a couple of dozen liveries announced already.

 

But when you end up with something like the Shropshire & Montgomeryshire I think it's time to give up as you are selling about three of them....

 

So I think they should issue unpainted versions or purchasers to dress up in their own liveries.

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I won't be buying anything 6 wheel, from either of them until I've heard how they run, having sold on a Stove R and a rake of Dapol 6 wheel milk tankers (even rewheeling didn't go well), which just wouldn't stay on the rails whilst everything else (almost always) does. I know both of those vehicles had some history, but until I know that these don't have similar problems, I'll wait.

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4 minutes ago, Tim Hall said:

I won't be buying anything 6 wheel, from either of them until I've heard how they run, having sold on a Stove R and a rake of Dapol 6 wheel milk tankers (even rewheeling didn't go well), which just wouldn't stay on the rails whilst everything else (almost always) does. I know both of those vehicles had some history, but until I know that these don't have similar problems, I'll wait.

 

I think your fears are unfounded. The Stove R was a design aberration. Unless I've missed it, we've not yet seen a sample of Hornby 6-wheelers being put through their paces but there are videos of EPs of the Hattons 6-wheelers, which show that they run very sweetly:

 

 

Edited by Compound2632
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Just now, Compound2632 said:

 

Unless I've missed it, we've not yet seen a sample of Hornby 6-wheelers being put through their paces but there are videos of EPs of the Hattons 6-wheelers, which show that they run very sweetly:

 

 

Fair enough, I'm still in no great rush, but that is interesting.

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9 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I think your fears are unfounded. The Stove R was a design aberration. Unless I've missed it, we've not yet seen a sample of Hornby 6-wheelers being put through their paces but there are videos of EPs of the Hattons 6-wheelers, which show that they run very sweetly:

 

 

Hornby Magazine had a BR livery 6 Wheel Brake for their video last week.

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5 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

The major reason for not modelling pre-group is recreating the complex liveries. 

 

There are a few with less complex liveries, but they would be so obscure

that no-one in their right minds would consider making, so unpainted, or

maybe just base coloured (no lining), would/could increase sales! 

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10 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

The major reason for not modelling pre-group is recreating the complex liveries. 

 

A reason, perhaps. Routes in to get started is another, which is why these RTR carriages are to be welcomed. But the livery issue is one that puzzles me when people start talking of cutting-and-shutting these. If one's prepared to start doing that, I think we'd both agree you've likely got the skills to tackle at least a plastic kit. 

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3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

A reason, perhaps. Routes in to get started is another, which is why these RTR carriages are to be welcomed. But the livery issue is one that puzzles me when people start talking of cutting-and-shutting these. If one's prepared to start doing that, I think we'd both agree you've likely got the skills to tackle at least a plastic kit. 

 

Maybe not everyone has the skills/confidence to build a smooth running chassis,

even from a kit, plus does the range of kits available have all the features/detail

they desire in the stock they want to recreate?

We all know someone in the hobby who can do wonders in one area, but are not

very good in another, not everyone can be great at everything.

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1 hour ago, jcm@gwr said:

 

Maybe not everyone has the skills/confidence to build a smooth running chassis,

even from a kit, plus does the range of kits available have all the features/detail

they desire in the stock they want to recreate?

We all know someone in the hobby who can do wonders in one area, but are not

very good in another, not everyone can be great at everything.

 

Bogie carriages, common on the 1890s on most railways, aren't  difficult to build and get running smoothly in OO. What sort of features do you think kits might omit? Interior detail is the most likely, but that is easy to add from readily available accessories.

The range of kits for pre-group models still greatly exceeds that which can be bought RTR There are  over eighty available for the LNWR from current suppliers while out of production kits appear on Ebay, Vectis, etc.

 

And while very few are great at everything, it isn't too difficult to learn how to be reasonably good at something if you want to.

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Received an email from Derails earlier this afternoon that the GNR 4-wheelers, and the BR Crimson and LNER Teak 6-wheelers are all in stock. Fingers crossed my local shop gives me a bell regarding my pre-order soon, very excited. 

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2 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 

Bogie carriages, common on the 1890s on most railways, aren't  difficult to build and get running smoothly in OO. What sort of features do you think kits might omit? Interior detail is the most likely, but that is easy to add from readily available accessories.

The range of kits for pre-group models still greatly exceeds that which can be bought RTR There are  over eighty available for the LNWR from current suppliers while out of production kits appear on Ebay, Vectis, etc.

 

And while very few are great at everything, it isn't too difficult to learn how to be reasonably good at something if you want to.

 

Firstly, we are talking about non-bogie coaches (6 wheeled being notoriously difficult)

Secondly, I'm not talking about omissions, I'm talking about different.

Thirdly, why choose the harder option if you can (in your eyes)  go for an easier choice?

It's just human nature

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Jenny's video review of the Hattons coaches was an eye opener, and I'm looking forward to her offering on the Hornby front tomoz. 

 

My purpose is to have another crack at the Cwmmer Corrwg-Glyncorrwg-North Rhondda miner's train as running in the early 50s for Cwmdimbath; a bit Rule 1 as of couse this was a different part of the Tondu valleys and Cwmdimbath never had a railway, colliery, or village.  My previous rake of Ratio coaches fell foul of my decision to revert to tension lock couplers in 2016, as my eyesight had deteriorated to the extent that scale screw couplings were no longer useable for me, and I took advantage of this to increase the capacity of the fy with setrack curves and turnouts; the Ratios objected. 

 

The rake, as photographed in John Hodges book about the Tondu valleys, was (in up valley direction) BT/T/BT/T (this last coach being shorter and with a lower roof).  Livery was mostly filth (not suprising for coaches that worked in such an environemnt and whose passengers brought large amounts of geology home with them and bathed in tin baths in front of the living room fire until the pithead baths were complete), under which seems to have been either GW plain brown, not the WW2 austerity livery but the NPCCS brown they'd been using for workmen's stock since the 20s, or BR plain crimson.  The BTs are the Ratio type with the duckets inboard of the end doors and not at the  end like the Stroudley type.

 

They were withdrawn in 1954, last of their type in revenue service, and replaced with gas lit non-gangwayed clerestories, also the last of their type in revenue, and finally by Hammersmith and City stock, also the last of their type in service.  The coaches were propelled between Glyncorrwg into the mountain fastnesses at North Rhondda, and the clerestory rake had no standard brake compartment.  Instead the leading compartment of one coach was converted to a sort of ersatz auto driving cab in which the guard rode, with windows cut in the end, a handbrake, setter, and treadle bell; the previous 4 wheelers lead with a brake compartment and had a porthole cut in the end for a guard's lookout, but AFAIK no bell.  The H & C set had end windows and a bell as well.  The Stroudley style brake thirds would have been very suitable in this role!

 

Now, I have to accept compromise here, no range of generic coaches is going to answer all my needs exactly even if it does describe itself as 'period coaches'.  I had thought from a brief perusal of the Hattons artwork that the windows and panels on their coaches were square cornered and not radiused, an important consdieration for appearance and I need radiused corners for the GW look, but from Jenny's video it is clear that some of the Hattons coaches are suitable for my needs.  I might be able to make a passable 'layout' representation of the train from a mix of Hattons and Hornby coaches, and the Hatton's have the advantage of a 4 wheel BC with has the right look.  I am very impressed with the detail and construction of the Hattons Genesis coaches, and would probably go for a 4 wheel all third to match the profile, which leaves the last coach.  But I may rethink this when I see Jenny's vid tomoz!  Hornby take the honours with much better lighting; the Hattons is flickery, draggy, and far too bright for my taste , but unless Hornby have luggage racks Hattons take the prize for interior detail.  But lighting is not a deal breaker and luggage racks (I think these are a 1st for RTR, aren't they) are not really visibly from most viewing angles, so they aren't either.  TTBOMK the Glyncorrwg set was gas lit, as electric lighting could not be reliably powered from rechargeable batteries and dynamos at the low speeds the trains ran at, in much the same way as the Culmstock branch train was.. 

 

We'll see; there's no urgency as I must reserve money for the Baccy 94xx and have spent far too much recently; the railway reserve fund needs replenishing before these are considered.  And I'd prefer to buy teak liveried coachss as overpainting the superbly applied liveries on the others would be a pity, but again, not a deal breaker!  But this is the reason I have been bothered by te Stroudly type end duckets and windows.  Thanks to Jenny for her input!

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3 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

 

I don't think they're that difficult, I just make the middle axle 'float' and don't have any issues with them.

But I bet you do not have to make them negotiate train set curves; few kits are designed to be capable of this.  As far as skill and challenge is concerned, I appreciate both views, and take pride in stuff I've made from scratch or kits if it's any good, and tbh it isn't always, at the same time as 'working up' stuff taken from boxes; nothing on my layout is as an RTR producer made it, even if it is only a light weathering wash to take the new off.  My approach is that it is a railway, not a model but a real railway that happens to be small, imaginary, and from the 1950s.  As such there are items of stock which it needs to realistically appear to fulfil it's purpose, and in order to obtain those items I will cut'n'shut RTR, build kits, or even scratch if that is the only means available to me.  I want, for instance, a twin set of Taff Vale Railway auto trailers, and will have to scratch build them despite not being by any means sure that I am capable of such a project!  I am more confident about a Clifton Downs driving trailer from a Blacksmith kit, and will cut'n'shat an Airfix trailer into an A27 with Airfix B set bogies, these running with RTR and Comet kit vehicles.  Skinning cats for results, but it's fun as well...

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