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Hornby 2021 - 4 & 6 wheel period coaches


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Jenny's video review of the Hattons coaches was an eye opener, and I'm looking forward to her offering on the Hornby front tomoz. 

 

My purpose is to have another crack at the Cwmmer Corrwg-Glyncorrwg-North Rhondda miner's train as running in the early 50s for Cwmdimbath; a bit Rule 1 as of couse this was a different part of the Tondu valleys and Cwmdimbath never had a railway, colliery, or village.  My previous rake of Ratio coaches fell foul of my decision to revert to tension lock couplers in 2016, as my eyesight had deteriorated to the extent that scale screw couplings were no longer useable for me, and I took advantage of this to increase the capacity of the fy with setrack curves and turnouts; the Ratios objected. 

 

The rake, as photographed in John Hodges book about the Tondu valleys, was (in up valley direction) BT/T/BT/T (this last coach being shorter and with a lower roof).  Livery was mostly filth (not suprising for coaches that worked in such an environemnt and whose passengers brought large amounts of geology home with them and bathed in tin baths in front of the living room fire until the pithead baths were complete), under which seems to have been either GW plain brown, not the WW2 austerity livery but the NPCCS brown they'd been using for workmen's stock since the 20s, or BR plain crimson.  The BTs are the Ratio type with the duckets inboard of the end doors and not at the  end like the Stroudley type.

 

They were withdrawn in 1954, last of their type in revenue service, and replaced with gas lit non-gangwayed clerestories, also the last of their type in revenue, and finally by Hammersmith and City stock, also the last of their type in service.  The coaches were propelled between Glyncorrwg into the mountain fastnesses at North Rhondda, and the clerestory rake had no standard brake compartment.  Instead the leading compartment of one coach was converted to a sort of ersatz auto driving cab in which the guard rode, with windows cut in the end, a handbrake, setter, and treadle bell; the previous 4 wheelers lead with a brake compartment and had a porthole cut in the end for a guard's lookout, but AFAIK no bell.  The H & C set had end windows and a bell as well.  The Stroudley style brake thirds would have been very suitable in this role!

 

Now, I have to accept compromise here, no range of generic coaches is going to answer all my needs exactly even if it does describe itself as 'period coaches'.  I had thought from a brief perusal of the Hattons artwork that the windows and panels on their coaches were square cornered and not radiused, an important consdieration for appearance and I need radiused corners for the GW look, but from Jenny's video it is clear that some of the Hattons coaches are suitable for my needs.  I might be able to make a passable 'layout' representation of the train from a mix of Hattons and Hornby coaches, and the Hatton's have the advantage of a 4 wheel BC with has the right look.  I am very impressed with the detail and construction of the Hattons Genesis coaches, and would probably go for a 4 wheel all third to match the profile, which leaves the last coach.  But I may rethink this when I see Jenny's vid tomoz!  Hornby take the honours with much better lighting; the Hattons is flickery, draggy, and far too bright for my taste , but unless Hornby have luggage racks Hattons take the prize for interior detail.  But lighting is not a deal breaker and luggage racks (I think these are a 1st for RTR, aren't they) are not really visibly from most viewing angles, so they aren't either.  TTBOMK the Glyncorrwg set was gas lit, as electric lighting could not be reliably powered from rechargeable batteries and dynamos at the low speeds the trains ran at, in much the same way as the Culmstock branch train was.. 

 

We'll see; there's no urgency as I must reserve money for the Baccy 94xx and have spent far too much recently; the railway reserve fund needs replenishing before these are considered.  And I'd prefer to buy teak liveried coachss as overpainting the superbly applied liveries on the others would be a pity, but again, not a deal breaker!  But this is the reason I have been bothered by te Stroudly type end duckets and windows.  Thanks to Jenny for her input!

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3 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

 

I don't think they're that difficult, I just make the middle axle 'float' and don't have any issues with them.

But I bet you do not have to make them negotiate train set curves; few kits are designed to be capable of this.  As far as skill and challenge is concerned, I appreciate both views, and take pride in stuff I've made from scratch or kits if it's any good, and tbh it isn't always, at the same time as 'working up' stuff taken from boxes; nothing on my layout is as an RTR producer made it, even if it is only a light weathering wash to take the new off.  My approach is that it is a railway, not a model but a real railway that happens to be small, imaginary, and from the 1950s.  As such there are items of stock which it needs to realistically appear to fulfil it's purpose, and in order to obtain those items I will cut'n'shut RTR, build kits, or even scratch if that is the only means available to me.  I want, for instance, a twin set of Taff Vale Railway auto trailers, and will have to scratch build them despite not being by any means sure that I am capable of such a project!  I am more confident about a Clifton Downs driving trailer from a Blacksmith kit, and will cut'n'shat an Airfix trailer into an A27 with Airfix B set bogies, these running with RTR and Comet kit vehicles.  Skinning cats for results, but it's fun as well...

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Pre-ordered the LB&SCR liveried brake coach, luggage coach, and the two 3rd class coached from tmc, will try to get the 1st class coach & a terrier to pull them at some point, & possibly the L&NWR 6-wheelers at some point too as I'm excited to compare these to the Hattons variants.

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47 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The challenge.

 

Which is equally, if not more so, human nature.

 

19 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

 

I don't think they're that difficult, I just make the middle axle 'float' and don't have any issues with them.

 

I'm confident that you are both capable, like many others on here, but you are missing the point!

I agree we should encourage newbies, or those who are late developers (modelling wise!), but

not by telling them they're doing it wrong, and they have to build a kit!

Once they've had success with doing a cut-n-shut, they'll have the confidence to do more, on the

other hand, if they feel they are being criticised before they've even started, they are more likely

to give up and try wargaming, or anything without rivet counters.

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10 minutes ago, [email protected] said:

I'm confident that you are both capable, like many others on here, but you are missing the point!

I agree we should encourage newbies, or those who are late developers (modelling wise!), but

not by telling them they're doing it wrong, and they have to build a kit!

Once they've had success with doing a cut-n-shut, they'll have the confidence to do more, on the

other hand, if they feel they are being criticised before they've even started, they are more likely

to give up and try wargaming, or anything without rivet counters.

 

What I see happening is that people will find pre-grouping model railways more accessible as a result of the Hattons and Hornby carriages; as their interest in the period grows, so does their discernment and knowledge of the prototype, to the point at which they become dissatisfied with the RTR offerings and start looking for something better. Meanwhile, they've dabbled in a bit of injection-moulded plastic wagon kit building, printed resin kit building, then maybe even into trying their hand at brass and whitemetal, building up the skills to give them the confidence to tackle a carriage kit, which is inevitably more complex than a wagon kit.

 

No doubt there will be foul-ups, botched jobs, and frustration along the way but that's all part of life. One always needs to remember that the person who never made a mistake never made anything.

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7 hours ago, Budgie said:

 

So I think they should issue unpainted versions or purchasers to dress up in their own liveries.

 

A lot of the minor railways used varnished teak I believe, So a "debranded" teak one should do the job

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47 minutes ago, [email protected] said:

 

 

I'm confident that you are both capable, like many others on here, but you are missing the point!

I agree we should encourage newbies, or those who are late developers (modelling wise!), but

not by telling them they're doing it wrong, and they have to build a kit!

Once they've had success with doing a cut-n-shut, they'll have the confidence to do more, on the

other hand, if they feel they are being criticised before they've even started, they are more likely

to give up and try wargaming, or anything without rivet counters.

 

Eeeeerr I never said 'build a kit' I just said I didn't think the middle wheelset of a 6 wheeler was that hard.  

 

I've also not criticised anyone for wanting to purchase these for use or for cut n shut. I've only said that as they are nothing like the GN Howldens they're not really for me, I did say though that I'd pick one up to see whether I could turn it into an early Met Camm built coach. 

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Of the 6 wheel coaches I listed earlier as photoed on departmental use the only one the Hornby range could possibly represent with a reasonable degree of similarity is 7500, the former MR arc roofed all 3rd with a lot of windows infilled. The NBR version offered by Hornby (R40090) being the nearest in terms of roof vent types. Visually aside from the windows, or rather lack of them other than the doors and the LH compartment, the foot step would need relocating to run immediately below the axleboxes and wheels replaced by split spoked ones.

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

One always needs to remember that the person who never made a mistake never made anything.

If true, this should mean I’ve made nearly everything...

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But it's not tomorrow yet.  OTOH it's been later than this before now, and before you know where you are, where are you?  Will check out vid dreckly, Jens...

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Jenny's video was very informative and has provided me with a lot more basic information to make decisions with.  I'd say the Hattons coaches are a better quality product; the Hornby lets itself down a bit with it's design clever style axles, crude underframe detail, and moulded end detail, despite the separate door handles and detailed wheel faces.  The lighting is clever and innovative, but at the cost of a floor raised to seat level in one compartment, made more obvious by the, um, lighting...  And I can't be doing with those odd concave buffers, or, on new stock in this day and age, brake blocks not in line with the wheels!

 

The Hattons are already earmarked for the brake thirds as their brake composites will pass muster and have duckets in the right place, and it will make sense to have a matching all third in between the brakes (this is for a Glyncorrwg miner's train as stated earlier), which leaves open the question of the other all third coach, which was lower and shorter.  The Hattons are better detailed at the underframe and have better buffers, as well as  separate end details; steps, lamp irons, and so on. 

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9 hours ago, Pmorgancym said:

Surely.just make the centre set blind.  Works on the Emily coaches that take impossibly tight curves on my garden line.

Exactly that, if it’s that difficult (which it’s not) to design a decent 6 wheeler, just make the centres flangeless, it’ll be impossible to notice and it’s already done on quite a few 4-6-2 Locos with the rear pair fixed......no one seems to mind that.

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9 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Jenny's video review of the Hattons coaches was an eye opener, and I'm looking forward to her offering on the Hornby front tomoz. 

Yes....I know they were EP or later but what was all that flickering lighting going on?

 

Bit worried I may have “backed the wrong horse”.

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10 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Jenny's video was very informative and has provided me with a lot more basic information to make decisions with..  And I can't be doing with those odd concave buffers, or, on new stock in this day and age, brake blocks not in line with the wheels!

 

 

On the 6 wheelers all 3 axles slide sideways so the brake blocks can not line up all the time

Edited by mozzer models
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5 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

Bit worried I may have “backed the wrong horse”.

 

Only if it is the steadiness of the lighting that is your overriding consideration, at the expense of probability and finesse in many other departments. Anyway, I bet there was plenty of flicker in the lighting of these carriages, certainly by oil, probably electricity, maybe not gas, depending on the system used.

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Hornby are getting into a habit of "it will do" for some of its products. Terrier for example, first batch was a bit umm....second batch much better with more refinement (really only the glazing is abit naf now).

 

but then we have to think what other manufacture has such a large range year on year, Bachmann maybe but even they are sliming down on the new ranges.

 

Hattons, accurascale etc are doing small amounts of new product so can invest the time make all their products more detailed, more refined, Hornby have to pick and choose theirs, Hornby are also selling to the masses. They are are a different beast.

 

Back to the coaches, they look ok and i think that sums them up, the lighting is a good idea, just enough refinement for the untrained eye, enough to please most people and will sell to the masses which i suspect is their aim leaving super duper stuff like the hush hush to the "modeller".

 

 

 

Edited by jonnyuk
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57 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Only if it is the steadiness of the lighting that is your overriding consideration, at the expense of probability and finesse in many other departments. Anyway, I bet there was plenty of flicker in the lighting of these carriages, certainly by oil, probably electricity, maybe not gas, depending on the system used.

The only lit ones that might interest me are a couple of SR green ones to use as Camping Coaches, which will be easy enough to wire direct to the baseboard if necessary. The Hornby ones would save a little work, but those 'orrible buffers would definitely have to go! Overall, I prefer the look of the Hatton's models, though.  

 

John

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Only if it is the steadiness of the lighting that is your overriding consideration, at the expense of probability and finesse in many other departments. Anyway, I bet there was plenty of flicker in the lighting of these carriages, certainly by oil, probably electricity, maybe not gas, depending on the system used.

No I understand that, the lighting is a very small consideration, it just knocks my faith a little to see flickering lights I haven’t seen since I tried to light my Triang carriages when I was a kid.

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1 hour ago, mozzer models said:

On the 6 wheelers all 3 axles slide sideways so the brake blocks can not line up 

 

I took a look at the relevant bit of @Jenny Emily's video, around 11 min. As far as I can make out, only the centre axle slides - having all three sliding would be a disaster! The centre axle does not have brake blocks, as is correct for the majority of 6-wheelers; the blocks on the outer axles are set with ease of conversion to EM or P4 in mind.

 

The footboard is in a much better place on this 6 wheeler than on the GN 4-wheeler we were shown earlier.

 

I do feel sorry for the lamp man, though. Quite apart from the shallowness of the end-steps, the handrails are in useless positions. Compare:

 

image.png.3401d641a63c146268323b955be79ab2.png

 

... a curved handrail following the line of the steps.

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