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Hornby 2021 - 4 & 6 wheel period coaches


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7 minutes ago, Skinnylinny said:


My concern is that the Hornby ones appear to have inside bearings which I would worry about increasing drag far more than the Hattons pinpoints in metal cups!

Certainly true of the Hornby Maunsells. The bogie coaches will run freely forever, while the Van C/BY is quite unwilling by comparison. 

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2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Thus your modelling bill could legitimately be increased by £200 if the local constabulary happen to find out what you are doing and take exception to it.  

Small fry compared to the risk the Mrs finds out.

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43 minutes ago, JohnR said:

I wonder how easy it will be to fit Hornby's coach lighting (that they are offering as a separate item) to a Hattons unlit coach....

 

40 minutes ago, AVS1998 said:

Surely if you're wanting illuminated stock though, you'd just plump for the lighting option from either company rather than paying roughly the same price for the lighting kit after the fact? It costs the same price (£35.99 for Hornby's lit carriages compared £36 for Hattons'). 

 

39 minutes ago, JohnR said:

Yes, but the point is that the Hornby lighting will not cause a drag on the coaches, whereas the Hattons one will. 

Then there's the question of where to put the battery. Not a problem on brake vehicles but could be on other stock.

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1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

And quite a few more if you don't omit Cambrian kits.....

 

Apologies for continuing with an OT digression.

 

Cambrian's pre-grouping wagons are mostly of post-Great War prototypes and from companies whose total wagon fleets combined accounted for only 5% of railway company owned wagons - not much more than half the number of wagons represented by one single Slaters kit alone! To some extent, it's a question of what one thinks is the optimum portion of the pre-grouping period for the trade to be supporting - with a very few exceptions the RTR locomotives that are available are appropriate to the decade up to the grouping, whereas I think much of the attraction of the pre-grouping period lies in the quarter-century up to the Great War, which was the Golden Age of British railways. (Though the seeds of decline took root very early in the 20th century.)

 

But Cambrian do do some very useful PO wagon kits, as do Slaters, though currently the route of supply for the latter is somewhat obscure.

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2 hours ago, Jenny Emily said:

I have been given permission to share one of the images Hornby were working from with regard to the buffers: 

 

Whilst those are self-evidently the right buffers for that carriage, they are untypical of late 19th century carriage buffers. 

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1 hour ago, JohnR said:

Yes, but the point is that the Hornby lighting will not cause a drag on the coaches, whereas the Hattons one will. 

 

What is your evidence for this statement? My understanding (from the CAD) is that the Hattons carriages will have split axles with current collection through the bearings. 

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2 hours ago, JohnR said:

Yes, but the point is that the Hornby lighting will not cause a drag on the coaches, whereas the Hattons one will. 

If, as seems to be the case, the Hatton's ones have pinpoints in metal cups, there isn't any unwanted drag.

I have some Bachmann coaches with that arrangement and they are as free rolling as pinpoints running in plastic frames

Edited by melmerby
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I wonder whether the "switch" for the lighting on the coaches could be mounted low down.

In which case you could have a under track magnet (maybe an switchable electro magnet?) located at the entrance/exit of storage roads.

As the rake of coaches leaves each one is switched on in turn.

As it returns each one is switched back off.

 

An alternative could be something above the track that they pass under if you use magnets for uncoupling purposes.

(maybe on the underside of an overbridge?)

Edited by melmerby
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22 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

What is your evidence for this statement? My understanding (from the CAD) is that the Hattons carriages will have split axles with current collection through the bearings. 

 

I have no evidence - I am merely repeating what has been stated elsewhere. I was merely suggesting that some people, who would prefer the magnetic battery operated lights to those from pickups.

 

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2 hours ago, JohnR said:

I wonder how easy it will be to fit Hornby's coach lighting (that they are offering as a separate item) to a Hattons unlit coach....

More to the point, will Hattons' unlit coaches have the raised floor to accommodate the tbattery that won't be needed. Another point in favour of Hattons...

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3 minutes ago, JohnR said:

I was merely suggesting that some people, who would prefer the magnetic battery operated lights to those from pickups.

 

I'm afraid that's not what you said. You stated that the Hattons carriages (at least the lit ones) will have greater rolling resistance.

 

 

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19 minutes ago, melmerby said:

I wonder whether the "switch" for the lighting on the coaches could be mounted low down.

In which case you could have a under track magnet (maybe an switchable electro magnet?) located at the entrance/exit of storage roads.

As the rake of coaches leaves each one is switched on in turn.

As it returns each one is switched back off.

 

An alternative could be something above the track that they pass under if you use magnets for uncoupling purposes.

(maybe on the underside of an overbridge?)

Simon mentioned something like this in his video so it's certainly something Hornby thought about in terms of expanding functionality. i thought about it on my layout but i can't see into my tunnels so not much point beyound, aint that cool because i know it's doing it.

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3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm afraid that's not what you said. You stated that the Hattons carriages (at least the lit ones) will have greater rolling resistance.

 

 

 

I dont want to have an argument about something as silly as this. People can see what I said, and make their own mind up. If you're not happy with my clarification, I'm afraid I cant do much about that.

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I would confirm the comments about rolling resistance on Hornby design clever items; I have a Southern BY and an LNER Long CCT of this type.  They do not run as well as my other stock, and I have had problems with the CCT to the extent that I have retired it from service and will eventually replace it with a Parkside.  The BY is ok, and it is sometimes an advantage to have a vehicle with a little bit of drag even if you think your layout is flat... 

 

Hornby's  point that lighting pickups cause drag is valid, but they have negated it a little by using design clever wheelsets on the 6 wheelers.  If Hattons are using split axle pickup, their lit coachs should run as freely as the unlit ones,  It is I think worth mentioning that many of these coaches, especially the 6 wheelers, would have been used on top link work when they were new, and pulled by the most powerful locos of their day.  We are talking Stirling singles and LNW Precedents as examples that are available or pending in RTR.  We think of them in their latter days, as they spent much of their lives on branch and secondary work being cascaded to it when bogie stock was introduced.  Bogie stock  was introduced pretty much across the board, finding it's way on to high density suburban work rapidly, cascading the earlier coaches to branches , where they were hauled by small locos in many cases. 

 

OTOH, some branches used cascaded locos as well (the GER 2-4-0s come to mind), so the situation is not just 4 and 6 wheelers hauled by Terriers, P, or GW Metros. 

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Whilst those are self-evidently the right buffers for that carriage, they are untypical of late 19th century carriage buffers. 

 

They also aren't concave, they are early Stroudley pattern buffers, with the drawings for them dating from 1873. they are well documented, and have flat heads, the edges are curved giving the lighting effect in the photo.

 

Available as a whitemetal part from 5&9 models, without the concave for anyone wanting Stroudley pattern buffers on their coaches.

 

It's a shame Hornby seem to have been extremely lazy with the research on these. Drawings for the buffers can be seen in print in LB&SCR Carriages Volume 3 page 200 (supplements to volumes 1 and 2) The drawing in the book is copied from from the 1873 GA for D34/147 carriages (Reproduced in The Engineer)

 

Gary

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15 minutes ago, BlueLightning said:

It's a shame Hornby seem to have been extremely lazy with the research on these.

 

I wonder if perhaps they have been in a cleft stick of their own making. Not having the in-house capacity to do the detailed research, their "late stage announcement" approach has precluded drawing on the pool of free advice from which Hattons has benefitted. They may also have felt that from the point of view of commercial confidentiality, they couldn't approach people already seen to be co-operating with Hattons.

 

But I should emphasise that that's just another example of the speculation which is the life and soul of this thread!

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5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I wonder if perhaps they have been in a cleft stick of their own making. Not having the in-house capacity to do the detailed research, their "late stage announcement" approach has precluded drawing on the pool of free advice from which Hattons has benefitted. They may also have felt that from the point of view of commercial confidentiality, they couldn't approach people already seen to be co-operating with Hattons.

 

But I should emphasise that that's just another example of the speculation which is the life and soul of this thread!

 

I agree, the "late stage announcement" seems to have hurt these offerings, and letting things that could have been corrected slip through, even more of a shame is based on the prototypes they seem to be based on, and the picture offered to justify the buffers, it looks very much like Hornby's research team have copies of LB&SCR Carriages Volumes 1 and 2 in the office.

 

This is also an example of the speculation that this thread seems to feed on.

 

Gary

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1 minute ago, Coach bogie said:

Some of them have been released as discussed a page or so ago. Think its LNER and BR so far

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2 minutes ago, Coach bogie said:

Some versions are in the shops now, one is on its way to me.

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1 hour ago, BlueLightning said:

 

They also aren't concave, they are early Stroudley pattern buffers, with the drawings for them dating from 1873. they are well documented, and have flat heads, the edges are curved giving the lighting effect in the photo.

 

Do concave buffers exist anywhere? I'm struggling to find a reason why they would.

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3 minutes ago, 30801 said:

Do concave buffers exist anywhere? I'm struggling to find a reason why they would.

 

In the mind of someone at Hornby. There was a vogue for having one convex and one flat buffer face - I think I read that the NBR went in for this at one time - there was a good reason (which I can't remember) but not good enough for the practice to become universal or to persist into the 20th century.

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