Jump to content
 

Hornby 2021 - 4 & 6 wheel period coaches


AY Mod
 Share

Recommended Posts

  • RMweb Gold
34 minutes ago, JeremyKarl said:

It always seems a pity to me that one can't easily return the unspoilt cardboard boxes back to the retailers rather than take them to the tip (en masse) for "recycling".

That’s the problem at present, people aren’t getting to the tip to recycle it. 

  • Agree 6
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
57 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

You may have as it one of the larger ones, first problem I’ve had with it from them and I’ve used them a fair bit, there is a National shortage of card boxes at present though so it may be because of that they are struggling for packaging ;) I’ve told them and no doubt will get a reply as their customer service has always been excellent. 

 

Yes I was surprised to receive a model fairly recently from a Well Known Name that was just packed in a jiffy bag.

The box inside was OK, but I was somewhat surprised to say the least. The only other time I've seen that was from Argos.

 

I won't name the company, largely because I can't now actually remember which it was - just that I was surprised that they would do such a thing. (In defence of my memory, I am ordering a lot of things on-line at the moment for some reason).

 

I would have thought that if forced into it due to a lack of cardboard packaging (and bubble wrap?) they would put in a note explaining why they did it, to forestall complaints.

 

Coincidentally, though, I got a spam email to my work address today with the title "Cardboard Box stock levels are recovering" so that's probably good news. They blamed Christmas and "lockdown 2.0".

 

I wish there was an easy scheme for passing once used jiffy bags on to someone who can make use of them. I hate chucking them away. I have managed to get rid of some via gumtree but that sort of thing is always a pain.

 

I like ordering from the Hereford Model Centre and getting custom made boxes constructed from whatever they received their supplies in. I'm sure it's not practical for the large companies but it is much better to re-use cardboard than recycle it.

 

(I appreciate that none of this is particularly on topic, but I'm still waiting for my pre-ordered 4 wheel coach to turn up).

 

  • Like 1
  • Agree 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
12 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

With my journalist hat on, I've found out that these are 75% sold out already. The trade have a new price list confirming this.

Does that mean the price has gone up, rarity value? :lol:

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for that Gary, most useful. 

 

I look forward to your video.

 

I got one of the Luggage Breaks yesterday, so a chance to study the details.

 

You have replaced the grab handles with Roxey ones, so I assume that those fitted come off fairly easily.

Have you tried to remove the buffers ? I wonder who does suitable replacements. A lot of the metal ones do not have the collar for the shank.

 

Roes anyone do 9 spoke wheels ?

 

With regard to the running boards, I assume that you could stick the Hornby ones directly to the bottom of the solebar or just under. Perhaps one of the 3D printers might make the small ones for the Break vans with the brackets attached, which might be a little bit stronger.

 

All the best

Ray

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

Thanks Ray

 

3 minutes ago, wainwright1 said:

You have replaced the grab handles with Roxey ones, so I assume that those fitted come off fairly easily.

 

yes, the Hornby ones are separately fitted, and pulled off with a small amount of pressure, a a couple of them broke in half, but the others all came off in one piece.

 

4 minutes ago, wainwright1 said:

Have you tried to remove the buffers ? I wonder who does suitable replacements. A lot of the metal ones do not have the collar for the shank.

 

I haven't found a suitable replacement yet as I use screw link couplings so am wanting sprung buffers, I will not try removing the existing ones until I have something I can replace them with, but I don't expect it to be hard to remove them.

 

6 minutes ago, wainwright1 said:

Roes anyone do 9 spoke wheels ?

 

Unfortunately not in 4mm

 

6 minutes ago, wainwright1 said:

With regard to the running boards, I assume that you could stick the Hornby ones directly to the bottom of the solebar or just under.

 

This is a possibility, but not something I have played with yet, it would need the supports removing and sticking to the outside of the solebar edge, hopefully the position will make more sense once I can show the drawings

 

8 minutes ago, wainwright1 said:

Perhaps one of the 3D printers might make the small ones for the Break vans with the brackets attached, which might be a little bit stronger.

 

I should have thought of that myself, I have a 3D printer sat about 3 feet from the workbench!

 

Gary

  • Like 3
  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Very interesting. BlueLightening's review confirms that these are decent models of actual Stroudley stock.

 

Which opens up an interesting debate. In the Hattons Genesis thread many people were saying that Hattons should have made accurate models of actual coaches then offered them in all the colours of the pre-Grouping rainbow. Hornby have done exactly that with these 4 wheelers- and folk are grumbling about it

 

Since the LBSC and SECR are probably two of the three pre-Grouping companies best supported in RTR at present, there is a market amongst the purists as well as the generic market . An LBSC train in SECR territory and vice versa are not implausible

 

It will be interesting to see if the 6 wheelers have actual prototypes, too

  • Like 5
  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

10/10 review Gary the LBSCR Oracle, helped me to make up my mind changing my SR pre order from a full brake to one with seating for department use on my layout, It's clearly far more accurate, and even I should be able to manage a grab handle change :p contemplating a repaint to department grey to match the breakdown crane, or just a heavy weathering job  hmmmm 

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • AY Mod unpinned this topic
  • RMweb Premium

Now that @BlueLightning has shown how close these really are to Stroudleys, it seems a shame not to go just that little bit further and replace the grab handles on my LB&SCR-liveried set.  Cue an order to Roxey Mouldings! 

 

I've had the "All First" and the "Baggage Brake" delivered from my box-shifter of choice, but am still waiting for them to get stock of the others.   Hope said box-shifter isn't too miffed at losing a sale of a rake of their own LB&SCR coaches, but I've stuck with theirs for my SE&CR set...

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, BlueLightning said:

So after a day of looking in books, comparing to drawings, and making many pages of notes. I can finally write up my thoughts on Hornby's 4 wheelers. I will also be doing a video on these on my YouTube channel, which will have more detail as I have permission to display some of the drawings from the LB&SCR Carriage books in video, but not on the web generally, I am just waiting for permission on a couple of the drawings before I can make and upload the video. (I already have permission to show the drawings of the buffers in the video, so you can look forward to that!)

 

I will start by saying that the models run very well, they are extremely free running, and at circa 50g per vehicle are an ideal weight. So in that Hornby have done very well. Now on to the design.

 

A picture of them in formation with my other makes of LBSC carriage, from the back we have Bachmann, the Laser cut kits by @Skinnylinny, then K's and finally the Hornby's at the front, they don't look very generic do they?

 

482533296_2021-02-0111_52_59.jpg.0c9228fd0be8bcebf8c1ef9cf9ffa381.jpg

 

and as we cover the carriages in detail they will continue to look just as generic. So firstly some general points that apply across the whole range.

 

The carriages in general are very nicely modelled, and details look very good, and the livery is very nicely applied, albeit with a lightly plastic-y finish, with the company name on the garter being visible, although not legible, which for a carriage of this price I think is quite acceptable, although I'm sure others wont.

 

822447060_2021-02-0111_07_14.jpg.25f867101f4781fb6844d293378120c7.jpg

 

As can be seen above the moulding for the doors is a groove above the waist panel, and a ridge below it. This is correct for Stroudley carriages.

 

Overall excepting the baggage brake, the major dimensions of the carriages match their Stroudley equivalent. This includes the panelling, windows, and doors, as well as the size of the carriages.

 

On the ends of the carriages the pipework matches that of LBSC type, having smooth brake hoses matching the Westinghouse air brakes that are fitted to the model. All the carriages have lamp irons both ends, and steps at one end, this does not match LBSC prototype, and if these were suburban sets as their numbering indicates only the brake ends would have these, photos of mainline stock shows steps on one end of the carriages, but only lamp irons on the brake carriages, although the preserved ones do have lamp irons.

 

The grab handles on all of the carriages are incorrect for LBSC pattern, however we will get back to that later

 

The underframes are very sparse as has been noted many times, on this thread, however they are realistically sparse from an LBSC perspective, the prototypes only had a footboard along the bottom of the solebar, except the brakes, which had a small lower footboard, only under the guards compartment doors. other than that the underframes were completely bare when built, only later having brake equipment added, this being the Westinghouse system, which Hornby have modelled reasonably accurately. There are sections of the brake rigging missing from around the wheels, however I again feel this is reasonable to leave off in this price bracket for the complication it would cause, and how hidden it would be. The missing rigging would have to be a separate part added after the wheels were fitted as it crosses under the axles.

 

The buffers, which Hornby have decided to make concave because they were fooled by light. The buffer housing seems to match reasonably well to the housing of the buffers that the carriages were built with in the 1870s, these buffers were quite long, protruding 1'11" from the buffer beam, however Hornby have fitted them with shorter buffer shanks than that style, so they only protrude a scale 1'6" which is how far the later buffers extended from the buffer beams, but these also had a different style of housing, these shorter buffers were fitted from 1880, and slowly the longer buffers were replaced with sorter on the older stock.

 

and onto the individual carriages. starting with the 4 wheel Brake Third which is numbered as per a Stroudley D34 Brake Third, so I have used this as my basis for comparison, along with it's mainline equivalent. For those that have the LBSC Carriage books, this one can be found in Volume 1 on page 152

 

1994966279_2021-02-0222_01_58.jpg.fdf72bf34bdd9da548cca7bf51f1a0b6.jpg

 

Firstly the overall length, width, height, panelling, compartment profile, ducket position and profile all match exactly on the model and the prototype, as do the positions of the lamps on the roof, and the steps, lamp irons, and handrail on the brake end. The handrail on the roof however is far too far back, and should be hanging over the end end of the roof to allow it's usage by whoever was climbing the vehicle, something which the position on the model rather precludes.

 

The combination of a single lamp and quaterlights is odd as these carriages were built with halflights and no partitions meaning one lamp could be seen in all 3 compartments (I don't want to say it could light them!) and later received a lamp above each compartment when rebuilt with partitions and quarterlights, however there is a photo of number 1077 on page 152 of LBSC Carriages Vol. 1 showing the combination of 1 lamp, quarterlights, and no partitions above the seats, as per Hornby's model, so it happened at least once.

 

The last notes on this vehicle are related to the underframe, where it should have the short lower footboard under the guards compartment door, as mentioned above. Stroudleys brake vehicles also had 9 spoked wheels rather than Mansell wheels, and most photos show them like this, however once again the photo of 1077 shows it fitted with Mansell wheels, so there is at least one example of a carriage being how Hornby have modelled it, it just seems a shame they didn't use 1077 as the number for this model!

 

4 Wheel 4 Compartment All First this is numbered as a Stroudley D30 4 Compartment All First, so again that is what I have used for my comparison along with it's mainline counterpart. For those that have the LBSC Carriage books, this one can be found in Volume 1 on page 147.

 

361983110_2021-02-0222_02_55.jpg.6ab9f2ee25e16d7d86e61269de427ea6.jpg

 

Much like the Brake Third above, the overall length, width, height, panelling, and compartment profile all match on the model and the prototype. The lamp positions on this carriage are also good, but the position of the handrail on the roof suffers once again by being too far back, and in fact on the suburban carriage should not exist at all! Photos from the LBSC carriage books seem to show the mainline versions of these with no lamp irons, so that is incorrect on this model.

 

The underframe is good and matches with my previous comments above.

 

If we are being very pedantic, the compartment interiors only seat 6, whereas the prototype seated 8!

 

4 Wheel 5 Compartment All Third this is numbered as per a Stroudley D33 5 Compartment All Third so his is where my comparisons come from, along with it's mainline equivalent. For those that have the LBSC Carriage books, this one can be found in Volume 1 on page 151.

 

394007961_2021-02-0222_02_30.jpg.0ec52f999e0a6b4f76ec452dc13db4a1.jpg

 

Much like the above carriages, the overall length, width, height, panelling, and compartment profile all match on the model and the prototype. The lamp positions on this carriage match the mainline version rather than the suburban version, for the suburban version there should only be 2 lamps, at the same positions as the outer lamps on the model. The position of the handrail on the roof suffers once again by being too far back, and in fact on the suburban carriage should not exist at all. Photos from the LBSC carriage books seem to show the mainline versions of these with no lamp irons, so that is incorrect on this model.

 

The carriage also matches the D32 5 Compartment Second which did have 3 lamps, so Hornby could theoretically re release this as a second class carriage with no issues, the LBSC ended second class on suburban services in 1909, (it continued on mainline serves until the 1st June 1912) so this could represent a D32 after this date.

 

The underframe is good and matches with my previous comments above.

 

As Hornby released this model with 2 different numbers, it has been the first that I have "played with" having removed the grab handles, and added replacement Stroudley style ones from Roxey Mouldings, this was a very easy job, and could be done by anyone, ad makes the carriages feel that much more like LBSC prototypes. I ordered the grab handles after the carriages arrived yesterday, and they arrived today, so great service from Roxey there!

 

2085612229_2021-02-0222_04_17.jpg.fd28223ae4523c4d957811eca03ac95f.jpg

 

4 Wheel Baggage Brake this is numbered as a Stroudley D47/222 baggage brake so that is what I used for my comparison. For those that have the LBSC Carriage books, this one can be found in Volume 2 on page 115.

 

274182981_2021-02-0222_04_34.jpg.4635c79815250d8e3ac37ee7949eaa45.jpg

 

This is the outsider of the bunch, being 7' longer than it's prototype, the doors are the right size, and so are the panels themselves, so this could be corrected by cutting the model down from it's current 5+3 panelling to the prototypes 3+1, however if someone does this the underframe will prove more problematic, as the wheels are too far from the end, the springs almost reaching right to the buffer beam on the prototype vehicle.

 

The lamp over the baggage compartment would also need removing, as there should only be a lamp over the brake compartment.

 

Much like the Brake Third this vehicle would usually be seen with 9 spoked wheels not Mansells, and I have not seen a photo of one with Mansells, so in this case I cannot see a prototype for it.

 

The baggage compartment door should have a grab handle, which the model does not, the only case over the whole range where one is omitted.

 

and finally once again the lower footboard under the guards compartment is missing, I am wondering if these could be bashed out of the full length footboards Hornby supply, but it is probably easier to make one from scratch!

 

So in conclusion, Hornby have not made a bad job of making some LBSC Stroudley carriages, they are not prefect, and I expect that is by design, but they most certainly have not made generic carriages, and for anything but LBSC I would strongly recommend Hattons over Hornby.

 

So I will wrap up for now, once permission for the last few drawings has come through I will make my video showing these with the drawings, and link it here. As of writing I have permission from 2 of 3 required parties, so hopefully it won't be long.

 

If you've made it to the end of this post I thank you very much for reading, and I really hope you enjoyed, or at least found it informative.

 

Gary

Many thanks for going to the trouble of posting that extremely useful review. It has convinced me to take the plunge and get a rake.  I’ll give the baggage brake a miss in view of its inaccuracies and I shan’t bother with lighting either. People have found it unreliable and inclined to shine through the bodies (good grief!). As Ravenser says, these coaches are a fair representation of something which actually existed rather than models which represent nothing in particular.

 

I don’t know much about pre-grouping stock but that doesn’t stop me wanting reasonably accurate representations. Generic? What’s the point?

  • Like 3
  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
1 hour ago, wainwright1 said:

With regard to the running boards, I assume that you could stick the Hornby ones directly to the bottom of the solebar or just under.

You would be better off using strips of 20thou plastic card cut 3mm wide glued to the edge at the bottom of the solebar. The Hornby ones are a bit short, they should project beyond the ends of the coach.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Nile said:

You would be better off using strips of 20thou plastic card cut 3mm wide glued to the edge at the bottom of the solebar. The Hornby ones are a bit short, they should project beyond the ends of the coach.

Thanks for that info.

Ray

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
12 hours ago, BlueLightning said:

If you've made it to the end of this post I thank you very much for reading, and I really hope you enjoyed, or at least found it informative.

 

Excellent review! As @Ravenser indicates, what this highlights is that if the Hattons carriages weren't in the offing, we'd all be applauding Hornby for producing some nice basic cheap carriages that with a bit of work can be made into decent representations of Stroudley 4-wheelers; a great boon for those who are interested in such things and a rather simpler route than any of the other four options (Gary didn't illustrate the Roxey etched brass kits). That's five different routes to the same pre-grouping coaches (and 1870s vintage at that)! Pure luxury! Just as well Hattons moved away from their Stroudleyesque starting point to something more generally useful, otherwise Brighton modellers would be expiring from a surfeit of choice.

 

41 minutes ago, Nile said:

You would be better off using strips of 20thou plastic card cut 3mm wide glued to the edge at the bottom of the solebar. The Hornby ones are a bit short, they should project beyond the ends of the coach.

 

I'd be tempted to use Evergreen strip; a bit more expensive but guaranteed straighter and perhaps more robust.

  • Like 1
  • Agree 4
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

I missed the word black from my last post. I don't think Evergreen do black strip, but it would make life easier if they did. The Hornby footboards with these Brighton coaches are black, is that correct?

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
1 minute ago, Nile said:

I missed the word black from my last post. I don't think Evergreen do black strip, but it would make life easier if they did. 

 

Well, I'd paint them first. What colour should the footboards be? They're hardwood planks; I assume they would be painted or varnished but they'd get quite a bit of wear, at least around the doors.

 

By the way, I hadn't realised just how dinky the Stroudley 4-wheel brakes were.

  • Like 3
  • Agree 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
1 hour ago, No Decorum said:

don’t know much about pre-grouping stock but that doesn’t stop me wanting reasonably accurate representations. Generic? What’s the point?

The point, not that I'm disagreeing with your wanting reasonable accuracy, is that many pre-grouping coaches were fairly similar to each other, and had Hornby produced their 4 and 6 wheelers as LBSCR stock, which I think was their original intention, many modellers would have bought them and worked them up as NBR, GNR etc.  One can understand the Hornby decision from a marketing pov even if one does not agree with it in principle, especially as an aggressive response to the Hattons Genesis.  Genesis are unashamedly generic and none the worse for that, but Hornby's marketing-led approach has resulted in a range which is generic but with a very Brighton feel to it. 

 

I am a bit miffed that both manufacturers have opted for the same pattern of Brake 3rd, as this is completely unsuitable for my purposes; I need something like a Ratio/Parkside BT that will run happily on 3rd radius curves on a curved turnout on my fy throat, but it is hardly reasonable for my needs to be a factor in the production of large companies, or even commissioners...  As things are, the 4 wheel Hattons and 4 wheel Hornby 5 compartment all thirds are both and each suituable for my project, but the BTs will probably be Ratio/Parkside on Hattons' underframes. 

 

Overall, I am grateful for both Hattons' and Hornbys' 4 wheel 5 compartment thirds, but wish a different style of BT had been produced by one of them, preferably Hattons for the underframe detail.  These will be 'layout models' that I won't be claiming to be accurate in any way, one of many compromises I make on my layout which may be eradicated as better stuff becomes available.  Come on Bachmann, come on Dapol, jump on the bandwagon and make the BTs I want...

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Excellent review!

 

Thank you Stephen!

 

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

As @Ravenser indicates, what this highlights is that if the Hattons carriages weren't in the offing, we'd all be applauding Hornby for producing some nice basic cheap carriages that with a bit of work can be made into decent representations of Stroudley 4-wheelers

 

I think you are right here, I had thought the Hattons ones disappointing for my use with the brakes being of a more LCDR profile, but certainly would have been very happy with a set in LBSC livery, however I think I will be even happier with them in SE&CR livery!

 

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Gary didn't illustrate the Roxey etched brass kits

 

A rather glaring omission from my collection, and now that I have 24 various LBSC 4 wheelers, they may stay that way, as I don't think either my early 20th century branch terminus, or my only just pre-ww1 through station call for any more!!

 

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

That's five different routes to the same pre-grouping coaches (and 1870s vintage at that)! Pure luxury!

 

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Brighton modellers would be expiring from a surfeit of choice

 

and to think, I started modelling the LBSC precisely because it's wasn't "easy"

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
8 minutes ago, BlueLightning said:

A rather glaring omission from my collection, and now that I have 24 various LBSC 4 wheelers, they may stay that way, as I don't think either my early 20th century branch terminus, or my only just pre-ww1 through station call for any more!!

 

But how could you possibly resist that so expressive 6-wheel brake? It's just looking at you saying "build me"!

 

By the way, who was on Stroudley's drawing office staff? I know Dugald D. was, until 1875, but was there someone of the carriage & wagon side from Wolverton? The style of panelling with the narrow panel along the door edge was also used in some early LNWR brakes.

Edited by Compound2632
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

Interesting that the 4-wheel coaches are extremely free-running. My three 6-wheel ones aren’t — in other words they generally stay where they've been left (something I find more useful a lot of the time) but without impeding the ability of the loco to pull a reasonable rake.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But how could you possibly resist that so expressive 6-wheel brake? It's just looking at you saying "build me"!

 

By the way, who was on Stroudley's drawing office staff? I know Dugald D. was, until 1875, but was there someone of the carriage & wagon side from Wolverton? The style of panelling with the narrow panel along the door edge was also used in some early LNWR brakes.

For anyone interested in how LNWR panelling was "designed", A Register of West Coast Joint Stock by Casserley and Millard , published by the HMRS and currently available at only £4, has a detailed explanation (the WCJS carriages being designed and built by the LNWR).

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...