Hornby 2021 - 4 & 6 wheel period coaches

[Londontram]

1 hour ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

 

I've read people say elsewhere that the LNWR livery offered in the first run is very close to Caledonian livery, how true that is I don't know. 

 

Nothing has been announced other than the current liveries so might be worth an email to them to make them aware of it.

No not the same at all, 

 As you say maybe an email might be worth while 

[Londontram]

1 hour ago, Chris116 said:

Hattons say that Caledonian livery is due in batch 3 of their Genesis stock.

Thank you Chris I was aware of the Hattons plans but was on this thread to see if Hornby had the same intentions 

[Legend]

9 hours ago, Londontram said:

Hello all sorry if this has been asked or discussed before but to save me trawling through 50 plus pages on this thread can anyone tell me if Hornby intend introducing a set in Caledonian livery in any future phases.

  Looking at both this and the upcoming range from the alternative supplier it would appear that most of the Hornby ones even though a generic besign bare a closer resemblance to some Caley prototypes than the operations range will. The 6 wheel brake third is certainly one example.

 But dare I say the alternative suppliers 6 wheel full brake better represents a Caley type than does the Hornby full brake.

 So is anyone awear as to if the Caley livery is planed for the future?

 

There's been no mention of Caley liveries on Hornby coaches so far .  Maybe next year or year after

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Legend said:

There's been no mention of Caley liveries on Hornby coaches so far .  Maybe next year or year after

 

Not so! It has been observed that Hornby's attempt at applying LNWR livery has come out looking distinctly Caledonianish!

 

[Legend]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Not so! It has been observed that Hornby's attempt at applying LNWR livery has come out looking distinctly Caledonianish!

 

 

Very True , but its supposed to be LNWR 

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, Legend said:

Very True , but its supposed to be LNWR 

 

Yes but I find a very great deal of supposition is required! Certainly more than that they're Caledonian.

 

 

[tender]

On 14/02/2021 at 20:42, Butler Henderson said:

And according to the catalogue they are 135mm which presumably includes the couplings; the six wheelers are given as 160mm so presumably c 141mm over buffers

Thanks, i've just topped up my order.

[turbos]

15 hours ago, Londontram said:

Thank you Chris I was aware of the Hattons plans but was on this thread to see if Hornby had the same intentions 

Hornby have a long history of producing Caledonian liveried coaches, I would be surprised if they don’t produce their new 4 and 6 wheel coaches in a Caledonian livery in the next couple of years releases. The next question is will Hornby  get the livery right if they do? Caledonian 4 and 6 wheel coaches of this period had different liveries.

I too looked at the LNWR coaches to see if I could ‘Caledonianise’ them, but concluded that it defeats the purpose of generic coaches in correct liveries if you have to modify a coach into a compromise livery.

I do think Hornby have made an admirable attempt at LNWR livery that looks better on the model than the official pictures show.

Just my thoughts on this subject.

 

Brian.

[Londontram]

34 minutes ago, turbos said:

Hornby have a long history of producing Caledonian liveried coaches, I would be surprised if they don’t produce their new 4 and 6 wheel coaches in a Caledonian livery in the next couple of years releases. The next question is will Hornby  get the livery right if they do? Caledonian 4 and 6 wheel coaches of this period had different liveries.

I too looked at the LNWR coaches to see if I could ‘Caledonianise’ them, but concluded that it defeats the purpose of generic coaches in correct liveries if you have to modify a coach into a compromise livery.

I do think Hornby have made an admirable attempt at LNWR livery that looks better on the model than the official pictures show.

Just my thoughts on this subject.

 

Brian.

Oh with out a doubt turbos they've done an excellent job with the LNWR livery but it does look a "tad" to red for a LNWR livery it should have slightly more of a purple lake to it and as such looks like it could pass for a Caledonian red lake. 

 So on saying that the only major change I suggested was to change the LNWR crests for transfers of Caledonian ones.

 

  I've emailed Hornby to ask if there are any plans for the future liveries to see if a Caledonian one is amongst them and am waiting for them to get back to me. I've had an automatic response thanking me for my inquiries and stating they will get back to me as soon as they can.

[MarkSG]

20 hours ago, Chris116 said:

Hattons say that Caledonian livery is due in batch 3 of their Genesis stock.

 

In which case, Hornby will probably do Caledonian in their batch 2  

[phil-b259]

On 15/02/2021 at 18:15, The Johnster said:

The 'pointless' axles are a throwback to the design clever era, when they featured on the Southern BY and LNER long CCT models (and probably others but I have these two). 

 

The  Southern BY was done alongside the first run of Maunsell stock and pre-dated Hornbys flirtation with 'design clever' era by quite a few years!

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, MarkSG said:

 

In which case, Hornby will probably do Caledonian in their batch 2  

Such cynicism, and in one so young...

[PatB]

Blimey. Three days this thread's taken me to finish, although I could probably have halved that by avoiding the repetitive bits.

 

And, speaking of repetitive, I agree with those posters, early in the thread, who suggested that some sub-50' bogie coaches would probably have been more useful than an overlapping range of 4 and 6-wheelers. I suppose, in a way, generic bogie coaches are harder to do, as companies had their own favoured bogie designs and these are often more obvious to the semi-historically literate, such as myself, than the subleties of panel shape etc. OTOH, this could maybe be regarded as a virtue, as a single body tooling could be made more suitable for individual railways by fitting appropriate bogies; eg. the GWR flavour could have Deans, making it more obviously GWR.

 

With a bit of thought, it may even be possible to utilise a single body moulding with differing roof mouldings for both clerestory and non-clerestory stock, thus getting some more bang for the tooling buck.

 

Regardless of the details, though, with careful selection of prototype inspiration, the possibility of getting a train of 5 bogie coaches and a tank engine into a 3'6" platform is a hugely attractive one, but not currently available r-t-r (apart from maybe with ex-Triang clerestories, whose dimensions I don't have to hand).

[Compound2632]

28 minutes ago, PatB said:

I suppose, in a way, generic bogie coaches are harder to do, as companies had their own favoured bogie designs

 

I don't think any harder; there's every bit as much variation between companies in 4 and 6-wheeled carriages as there is in bogie carriages, if not more.

[Oldddudders]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I don't think any harder; there's every bit as much variation between companies in 4 and 6-wheeled carriages as there is in bogie carriages, if not more.

But most of us know that, for example, Tri-ang GWR clerestories on Mk 1 bogies are just plain wrong. Knowing the subtleties of 4-wheel chassis design among Pre-Grouping companies requires a good deal more anoraking, so one chassis fits all in this context, no questions asked except by those who wouldn't buy them anyway. How many different companies' bogie designs would a Hornby or Hattons range of the declared size require?

[jcm@gwr]

I would suggest starting with Fox bogies, as they are as close to generic as

you could get, lots of early bogie coaches had them.

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

But most of us know that, for example, Tri-ang GWR clerestories on Mk 1 bogies are just plain wrong. Knowing the subtleties of 4-wheel chassis design among Pre-Grouping companies requires a good deal more anoraking, so one chassis fits all in this context, no questions asked except by those who wouldn't buy them anyway. How many different companies' bogie designs would a Hornby or Hattons range of the declared size require?

 

Apologies. Re-reading the post, I see the reference was to bogies specifically, rather than bogie carriages in general. I'm not sure I'd get too hung up on specifics of bogie design for a 19th-century bogie carriage: just as for a 4 or 6-wheel carriage, most of the detail is hidden by the lower stepboards. 

 

It's what's above platform level that is really distinctive, as preservationists know well. I like the comment made by a rustic inhabitant of Lustleigh on first seeing a motor car: "It was like a railway carriage on wheels".

[PatB]

58 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

It's what's above platform level that is really distinctive, as preservationists know well. I like the comment made by a rustic inhabitant of Lustleigh on first seeing a motor car: "It was like a railway carriage on wheels".

But, for many, it's not. I suspect that, for the majority of buyers of rtr, as long as an "old" coach has a representation of panelling, is rendered in an attractive livery and, maybe, has a clerestory it will be adequately representative. After all, the Triang clerestories have sold steadily for 60 years on pretty much that basis, and even the horrible 4-wheelers, which must be on the shortlist for The Worst Model of All Time, seem to remain popular. 

 

Even below the solebar I only mention bogies because, as a mechanically inclined bod, I can see fairly obvious differences between BR1s, Foxes and Dean's, for example, whereas, whilst I'm aware that there are differences in panelling styles, windows, duckets etc. I'd need to go and look in a reference book to know whose was what, so it doesn't bother me all that much. 

[Legend]

Actually back in the 70s Graham Farish made generic coaches in OO and N . There were Corridor and Suburban types . I have three  LMS Suburban ones  and a  corridor one I got by mistake . They all date from 1978 and are very nicely finished. I think something similar in a range of pre grouping colours might have gone down very well .

[friscopete]

Mulling whether or not to make generic passenger strips of basic period people with out a lot of detail but sort of  paint and modify for these carriages.Only a basic idea at present.

[Caledonian]

1 hour ago, PatB said:

But, for many, it's not. I suspect that, for the majority of buyers of rtr, as long as an "old" coach has a representation of panelling, is rendered in an attractive livery and, maybe, has a clerestory it will be adequately representative. After all, the Triang clerestories have sold steadily for 60 years on pretty much that basis, and even the horrible 4-wheelers, which must be on the shortlist for The Worst Model of All Time, seem to remain popular. 

 

 And that is exactly the point about these coaches. You might be inclined to complain that Hornby didn't take the opportunity to produce a super-detailed LBSCR range to hang behind a Terrier, but for the rest of us mere mortals wanting to  run something akin to the North British or the Caledonian they are an enormous improvement on those "horrible old 4-wheelers" and Triang clerestories which are all we've been offered in the past. 

Edited February 17, 2021 by Caledonian
spelling

[The Johnster]

The Triang clerestories nowadays have the benefit of proper retrofit Dean bogies fro Stafford Road Works/Shapeways.  I have used some of these, not Deans admittedly but fishbellies, Americans, and Colletts, and can unreservedly recommend; no connection satisfied customer.  They are easy to fit, have plenty detail, and printed NEM pockets. 
 

My inner pedant points out that the Triang bogie still used on these coaches is a B1, not a mk1.  It is a not bad representation of the B1, and was incorrectly used on other Triang/Triang Hornby/Hornby coaches for many years; the Caledonians and the initial types of Collett 57’, Thompsons, and Maunsells (actually re-liveried Colletts).  The clerestories appeared in Midland, LNER faux teak, and crimson/cream BR livery (for a trainset IIRC) as well as the 1920s GWR  that never matched the Dean single they were originally produced to run with; they are also a compartment under scale length for Dean coaches.  That makes them ‘generic based on Dean’ IMHO.  
 

They can be worked up into acceptable ‘layout’ coaches but something has to be done about the bogies.  An easy fix for GW is to convert the bogies into ersatz Dean 8’6” by cutting out the tie bar and fitting footboards, in my case wooden Sainsbury cafe coffee stirrers cut in half lengthways and then to length, with cutouts to clear the axle boxes; this happily passes the ‘two feet’ rule, and the price is right!

[RAYTHEROCK]

Playing around with my set of 3 6-wheelers - would like to close up the gap between coaches but cannot find

anything suitable. They are fitted with Hornby  R8219; I looked at Fleischmann 6574 and also the Hornby "Close coupling" that comes with the Gresley suburbans but no good. Anyone any ideas?

[Compound2632]

Bearing in mind the slidey axles, how does a rake of the 6-wheelers get along when propelled? Especially through a reverse-curve / crossover. Do they waggle all over the place?

[friscopete]

I thought I would post a gratuitous night shot og my rake pulled by Boxhill .A fantastic little set and who would believe they would be mass produced .Its actually on my US layout but looks British enough under fish tank lights .So thanks Hornby  and Rails.

Edited February 17, 2021 by friscopete