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Hornby 2021 - 4 & 6 wheel period coaches


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On 24/02/2021 at 19:47, sb67 said:

Would an odd LNER teak version 4 or 6 wheel be suitable to represent trains that ran on branch lines around Essex/Suffolk around the 50's60/s? 

I was thinking of photo's I've seen of the Maldon or Thaxted branch with trains made up of older stock

I was thinking of using 2 BR Crimson and 1 LNER teak 

 

Thanks guys

 

No , but you may not be able to do any better.

 

The stock used on the Braintree and Dunmow line to early 1940 , on the Thaxted branch until Feb 1948, and on the Mid Suffolk until 1951 were GE 6 wheelers with rounded top corners to the windows ("arched windows" if you like) .  The brake thirds had square side duckets, quite unlike Hornby's end duckets and windows,  and all vehicles were 34'6" long, not 32' like the Hornby and Hattons 6 wheelers

 

In the case of Braintree and Thaxted , these were converted to opens for conductor-guard operations ("Paytrains" as BR would have said in the 1970s) under dias 440, 552, 246, and 248. It's not clear if the Mid Suffolk stock was the same, or not - though I would have expected it to be , on a light railway

 

The Mid Suffolk closed in July 1952, Thaxted closed that September. Photographs on the Thaxted branch post-war are invariably after bogie coaches took over, and photos of all these lines pre-war are like hen's teeth. Braintree is a similar situation... The Tollesbury light railway used ex Wisbech & Upwell tram coaches

 

I can't seem to find my Maldon and Saffron Waldon monographs, but I'd be very surprised if Maldon was operated by 6 wheelers later than Braintree (ie to Spring 1940 only)

 

I'm not sure there are even kits for these 34'6"  GE vehicles, though the Hattons brake thirds will be a better approximation. It's wildly unlikely any of them ever received BR Crimson. Times were hard, all materials were in chronic shortage, and the LNER had resolved as early as 1934 to get rid of 6 wheelers  (Added to which, it was GE Section policy to keep painting pre-Grouping carriages in LNER brown after Nationalisation. There were brown vintage carriages on GE branches as late as 1956-7)

 

If you are modelling the survivors of these lines in the late 50s/early 60s you need a W&M diesel railbus, not 6 wheelers.

 

 

Edited by Ravenser
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2 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

No , but you may not be able to do any better.

 

The stock used on the Braintree and Dunmow line to early 1940 , on the Thaxted branch until Feb 1948, and on the Mid Suffolk until 1951 were GE 6 wheelers with rounded top corners to the windows ("arched windows" if you like) .  The brake thirds had square side duckets, quite unlike Hornby's end duckets and windows,  and all vehicles were 34'6" long, not 32' like the Hornby and Hattons 6 wheelers

 

In the case of Braintree and Thaxted , these were converted to opens for conductor-guard operations ("Paytrains" as BR would have said in the 1970s) under dias 440, 552, 246, and 248. It's not clear if the Mid Suffolk stock was the same, or not - though I would have expected it to be , on a light railway

 

The Mid Suffolk closed in July 1952, Thaxted closed that September. Photographs on the Thaxted branch post-war are invariably after bogie coaches took over, and photos of all these lines pre-war are like hen's teeth. Braintree is a similar situation... The Tollesbury light railway used ex Wisbech & Upwell tram coaches

 

I can't seem to find my Maldon and Saffron Waldon monographs, but I'd be very surprised if Maldon was operated by 6 wheelers later than Braintree (ie to Spring 1940 only)

 

I'm not sure there are even kits for these 34'6"  GE vehicles, though the Hattons brake thirds will be a better approximation. It's wildly unlikely any of them ever received BR Crimson. Times were hard, all materials were in chronic shortage, and the LNER had resolved as early as 1934 to get rid of 6 wheelers  (Added to which, it was GE Section policy to keep painting pre-Grouping carriages in LNER brown after Nationalisation. There were brown vintage carriages on GE branches as late as 1956-7)

 

If you are modelling the survivors of these lines in the late 50s/early 60s you need a W&M diesel railbus, not 6 wheelers.

 

 

 

Thanks Ravenser, I have found it difficult to find suitable ex GE coaches and am never sure which are the right ones. I do have that railbus but for a change I'd run a couple of Hornby six wheelers although they're not correct. 

I could always run them as a workers train on my dock layout too. 

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21 minutes ago, sb67 said:

 

Thanks Ravenser, I have found it difficult to find suitable ex GE coaches and am never sure which are the right ones. I do have that railbus but for a change I'd run a couple of Hornby six wheelers although they're not correct. 

I could always run them as a workers train on my dock layout too. 

 

I've really no need of a 1930s LNER branch set at all but couldn't help myself... So I've bought the Hornby all third 6 wheeler, and I'll go for a Hattons LNER luggage composite and brake third when they come out.  I can't tolerate the LBSCR ducket arrangement of the Hornby brake third in an LNER context, and a mixed bag of 6 wheelers seems more appropriate to inter-war photos of GN Section branch trains  

 

In a GE context, it would probably be a case of all the stock being from the same company and same design period - a "mixed bag" isn't appropriate

 

My reaction to the Hornby all third when it arrived the other day was that it's a bit gaudy, and I think a weathering job with Pullman umber will be in order, presumably cleaned back with a cotton wool bud , leaving dark staining around the edges of the panelling. Not an urgent job.

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Changed the handrails on my "preserved LCDR" compartment 3rd - thankfully H&A Models had a pack of short handrails knobs at a sensible price compared to what they are going for on ebay. I used a slow setting cyanoacrylate  (Loctite 60 sec) but it was still tedious getting both wire threaded handrail knobs in their holes due to their closeness.  Also had to re-teak parts, whereas the lining was unremovable on mine and I ended up painting over it, the teak sides were easily damaged; seems to be a very greasy plastic that has been used with the advantage of any repaired panel that looked too bad could easily be returned to the plastic base by nail scratching the oil and base acrylic layer away. I settled on Vallejo Beige Brown with a blend of Raw Sienna and Vandyke Brown oil paints. 

 

 

IMG_20210226_165323147~2[1].jpg

Edited by Butler Henderson
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On 25/02/2021 at 08:21, Robin Brasher said:

Thank you for the information about Hornby 6 wheel coach axles and mixed trains of BR and LNER stock. During my daily exercise I came across a wooden body coach near the Square and Compass at Worth Matravers.  A hedge obstructs the view of most of the coach but it looks like it is well looked after.  We had plans forty years ago to restore and run our three LSWR six wheel coaches on the Swanage Railway but the plans never materialised and I sometimes wonder if the coaches are better off remaining in people's gardens if the owners look after them.  This one looks like it is in British Railways southern region green livery.

P1000566.JPG

 

Looks rather GE to me, which would be interesting, given the location!

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On 25/02/2021 at 08:21, Robin Brasher said:

British Railways southern region green livery.

P1000566.JPG

 

Garden gate green, I think. Undoubtedly re-painted on site - note the board replacing the door ventilator hood. The Railway Heritage Register says it's ex-Taff Vale and was withdrawn in 1926. 

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NO PLACE has now tripled its coaching stock with a GNR four wheeler and an LNER 6 wheel brake.

 

As they pass onto the layout under a bridge and run behind the engine shed, behind a grounded van body and behind the station fence before reaching the platform nobody is going to see any shortcomings below the solebars.

 

20210226_131358.jpg.7a14f9ca0af064873fe9b478bb63956b.jpg

 

To test the track sensitivity I shunted the six wheeler over the most difficult part of the track into the colliery screens.  It ran perfectly- not exactly where a coach should be shunted but I'm impressed that a 6 wheeler ran where coal wagons fall off....

 

Les

 

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16 hours ago, sb67 said:

 

Thanks Ravenser, I have found it difficult to find suitable ex GE coaches and am never sure which are the right ones. I do have that railbus but for a change I'd run a couple of Hornby six wheelers although they're not correct. 

I could always run them as a workers train on my dock layout too. 

D&S Models produced etched kits for GE six wheelers (no longer available but do appear on Ebay from time to time). Eveleigh Creations are now also producing etched kits for GE six wheel carriages (see the Smaller Suppliers section of RMweb).

 

It is very much the case that the kit manufacturers have been producing a wide range of kits for pre-grouping stock going back decades. The RTR producers have apparently only recently woke up to the demand and are trying to satisfy it with these generic models.

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15 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

It is very much the case that the kit manufacturers have been producing a wide range of kits for pre-grouping stock going back decades. The RTR producers have apparently only recently woke up to the demand and are trying to satisfy it with these generic models.

 

It will remain the case that those who want accurate models of particular prototypes will work to acquire the skills to build the available kits or to scratchbuild, if they can. For those who are disinclined to make that effort or for various understandable reasons are unable to do so, a RTR model provides some sort of approximation that is better than nothing. As you're aware, @Jol Wilkinson, there's a whole topic on here that demonstrates that despite the plethora of RTR LNER / BR(E) pacifics available RTR in 00, one can still do better either with a kit or by what used to be called "super-detailing".

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10 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

D&S Models produced etched kits for GE six wheelers (no longer available but do appear on Ebay from time to time). Eveleigh Creations are now also producing etched kits for GE six wheel carriages (see the Smaller Suppliers section of RMweb).

 

It is very much the case that the kit manufacturers have been producing a wide range of kits for pre-grouping stock going back decades. The RTR producers have apparently only recently woke up to the demand and are trying to satisfy it with these generic models.

 

It is perhaps worth remarking that applying a couple of coats of Precision LNER brown to an etched kit is going to be an awful lot easier than doing full LNWR lined plum and spilt milk

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9 hours ago, Fredo said:

Hi, does anyone know if any coaches that would fit the base Hornby models R40080 (4 wheel) and R40123 (LNER 6 wheel) were later modified to department use. Thanks Fred

 

Given how far under the radar some departmental stock was, even if nobody has a pic that doesn't guarantee that nothing departmental looked like either of these coaches...

 

Les

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On 16/12/2020 at 12:24, AY Mod said:

his SR coach is modelled as having step boards to enable access at stations with low platforms and electric lighting.

 

Slide134.JPG

 

 

 

40 minutes ago, LucasK said:

Read through most of the topic but may have missed a comment, anyone think it odd that they didn't release the 4wheel brake variant in SR olive green?

They are doing some liveries as 6 wheel sets and some as 4 wheel sets so I guess they might switch to the other variants for new releases in a year or two? The baggage van is the only one without a 6 wheel option. 

Edited by PaulRhB
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14 hours ago, LucasK said:

Read through most of the topic but may have missed a comment, anyone think it odd that they didn't release the 4wheel brake variant in SR olive green?

The 4 wheel baggage brake is in SR green - it is the only one to be produced in all nine different liveries currently offered. Of the rest of the 4 wheelers are in GW/LBSC/GN/LSWR while the 6 wheelers come in BR/NBR/LNER/SR/LNWR. 

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On 09/02/2021 at 19:01, BlueLightning said:

My video review complete with drawings is finally out, make yourself a cuppa and settle in! it's 42 minutes long!

 

Gary

 

 

 

Great Video. Thanks to it, I have now brought all 3 volumes of LBSCR coaches books quoted there-in PLUS all 5 Hornby LBSCR generic coaches! 

 

I was initially going to wait to see if either Generic maker did the Bluebell numbers but there closeness to actual LBSCR types and the need for LBSCR items to go behind my 2 LBSCR locos that did not make it into preservation, lead me to buying them. The coach numbers are so small that I probably won't renumber to Bluebell running numbers and run them on preservation trains as is. 

At £22 each, they are a really good bargain and a lot cheaper and less effort than buying coach kits of these types leaving me to focus any actual modelling on my key interest, the SECR.

 

Some pictures.

 

An old Dapol generic terrier (55 Stepney) with generic coaches:

LBSCR1.jpg.da0b4133042b02db7374bbf3c6e0521b.jpg

 

A Bachmann E4 (though this I think is in a slightly later period):

LBSCR2.jpg.3e0cb4e77e795ab5e12398aac8e8b8a9.jpg

 

A Bachmann H1 Atlantic La France (again probably a later period and would probably not have been seen with them, but its better than nothing):

 

LBSCR3.jpg.040fbb119fecac02c13e0d36487a20ff.jpg

 

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8 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

Great Video. Thanks to it, I have now brought all 3 volumes of LBSCR coaches books quoted there-in PLUS all 5 Hornby LBSCR generic coaches! 

 

Glad you enjoyed! I'm sure the publishers will be very happy they let me use the books! I don't blame you for not changing the numbers, I doubt you'll ever see them, if you change your mind though, transfers are available from @ianmaccormac

 

There is a part 2 and 3 of the review coming in the near future, one to deal with ways to improve the carriages, and make them more Stroudley, and one covering the 6 wheelers (I have most of them to hand now, just waiting for the lavatory first to arrive, thanks to people lending them to me)

 

Love the pictures, but your right about the E4 and H1 being a bit late in their umber, though the E4 is possible I doubt an H1 would have ever gone near them

 

and just for you, to go with your main interest, my bashed SE&CR 4 wheelers, made from Ratio GWR carriages, based on the close coupled sets built 1894/5 (This will eventually be Set Train 303, but I still need a couple more carriages)

 

Gary

 

962479812_2021-03-0313_03_46.jpg.2b639e3c4b342e7db91725e32050b611.jpg

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8 minutes ago, BlueLightning said:

 

Glad you enjoyed! I'm sure the publishers will be very happy they let me use the books! I don't blame you for not changing the numbers, I doubt you'll ever see them, if you change your mind though, transfers are available from @ianmaccormac

 

There is a part 2 and 3 of the review coming in the near future, one to deal with ways to improve the carriages, and make them more Stroudley, and one covering the 6 wheelers (I have most of them to hand now, just waiting for the lavatory first to arrive, thanks to people lending them to me)

 

Love the pictures, but your right about the E4 and H1 being a bit late in their umber, though the E4 is possible I doubt an H1 would have ever gone near them

 

and just for you, to go with your main interest, my bashed SE&CR 4 wheelers, made from Ratio GWR carriages, based on the close coupled sets built 1894/5 (This will eventually be Set Train 303, but I still need a couple more carriages)

 

Gary

 

962479812_2021-03-0313_03_46.jpg.2b639e3c4b342e7db91725e32050b611.jpg

Love the kit bash. Look forwards to the review parts 2 & 3.

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4 minutes ago, mozzer models said:

I went for the full set of LNWR coaches to go with my coal tank

50999427428_f766f66f9b_b.jpgIMG_20210303_154152 by brian mosby, on Flickr

 

Very nice!

 

I decided I didn't want to encourage the nobs to use the Parly service, and if extra carrying was needed a couple of vans would do...   However, given the woeful braking of the Coal Tank,  perhaps I should get another Brake 3rd.

 

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17 minutes ago, Hroth said:

However, given the woeful braking of the Coal Tank,  perhaps I should get another Brake 3rd.

 

With continuous brakes, whether an additional vehicle is a brake (i.e. has a handbrake) or not is irrelevant to the total braking power available. A different matter if you're modelling Clarke & Webb chain brake days but then your Coal Tank needs to be modified to the early type of horizontally-hinged smokebox door...

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2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

With continuous brakes, whether an additional vehicle is a brake (i.e. has a handbrake) or not is irrelevant to the total braking power available. A different matter if you're modelling Clarke & Webb chain brake days but then your Coal Tank needs to be modified to the early type of horizontally-hinged smokebox door...

 

Generic is as generic does....  :rolleyes:

 

Ok, I'll pretend that its got continuous brakes, get another 3rd carriage and weather over the number. 

 

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