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Hornby 2021 - HST & Mk3 range


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5 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:


Adding that headlight would need quite a bit of new tooling:-
- Hornby will need to create a brand new tool entirely for front of the HST
- They will need to create a whole new tool for the lighting guide and lens
- The will have to modify the cab interior tooling just to accommodate the new lens and light guide unit

That is by no means a cheap undertaking just for one small headlight.

The different exhaust cowlings and so on were all factored into the tooling when the Hornby HST was first released. I am not aware of any retooling done to the HST in recent times to model various exhaust cowlings, windows and roof grilles.

It will be far cheaper for a smaller company such as Express Models, Illuminated Models etc. to produce a lighting kit.

So why is it premium priced over RRP of others then ?

Theyve done the the right thing for the DVT front (Buffer beams) the Network Rail front (cameras), both without a premium.

 

i’m suddenly looking down on this model, tbh its a bit taking the mick.

I dont mind paying more to have a good job, even if its a specialist thing, but a premium just because of seeing £ signs, whilst deliberately omitting a focal point of the prototype is a bit off the mark.

 

they’d never make a Bulleid pacific without a chimney.

 

its a trainset now... might as well use the railroad tooling and make even more wonga.

 

considering plan B.  dump the power cars, buy a second hand pair, add the light myself and get a respray made.


If this was the same rrp as the standard release I could understand it as an excuse, not that i’d be happy, but I would understand.

 

ive £538 (discount ) of Pullman pre-order i’m considering here, tbh if its pup I may as well wait for the fire sale if enough are dissapointed by it, I think at £314 RRP for power cars a lot will find it an easy decision to put it off a while... without power cars the coaches are useless too, and if the train is minimally used in 2021.. then its an easy decision to walk on past and leave on the shelf to twist in the wind.

 

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4 hours ago, LMS_LNER_SR_GWR_fan2004 said:

I forgot to add the lens, my apologies. But still, it’s less expensive than designing and retooling an entire new cab. They don’t have an EMT light cluster tooling so they could and probably will use the LNER/GWR/SR bodyshell. Even then iirc the lighting would have to be changed. Still though, why the extra £15?? I understand that it’s part of the 1:1 collection but that doesn’t justify the price rise. Especially when the dummy can be sold on its own for £70

 

Regarding the cab light issue, I can't see what's wrong with Hornby using a clear piece of plastic rod, and connecting that into the pre-existing cab light - all you'd need to do is drill 1 small hole for it, 1 piece of plastic rod (similar techniques are used for the HST lighting, 153 etc) and possibly one small clip to hold it in. The light tube won't bleed light all over the cab desk, and you get an accurate, simple solution. 

 

The biggest issue I can see will be the headlights - as others have mentioned, Hornby hasn't produced the 3 Cluster MML version yet (the EMT version coming with the original cluster design), These being ex MML power cars have this arrangement but modified down to two by losing the innermost tail lights. Will the slightly different MTU style tooling be used I wonder - the GNER / XC PC has the same radiator arrangement (Brush twin fans). 

 

Considering the "prestigiousness" of the LSL operations, and the fact that they have clearly been working together on this years range, I'd be surprised if some modifications aren't made! Not least for charging the extra ££ on it all.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

On which release? I cannot see a top level headlight on the R3769 Network Rail HST, making that wrong for the "improving your railway" era with those nameplates (the second of which dates from 2018)

 

It hasn't been produced on either R3769 or R3366! 

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2 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

You’ll certainly see the missing headlamp

 

Umm, the whole point is that you won't see the missing headlamp. Because...it's missing, y'know.

 

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

i’m suddenly looking down on this model, tbh its a bit taking the mick.

I dont mind paying more to have a good job, even if its a specialist thing, but a premium just because of seeing £ signs, whilst deliberately omitting a focal point of the prototype is a bit off the mark.

 

Yep, I've decided against this one now. Not that I was considering a full rake, but I've saved myself more than 400 of your Great British drinking tokens.

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11 minutes ago, truffy said:

 

Umm, the whole point is that you won't see the missing headlamp. Because...it's missing, y'know.

OK then, you will be looking for the headlamp.......and it’ll be missing....better? ;)

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49 minutes ago, surfsup said:

 

It hasn't been produced on either R3769 or R3366! 

Yes but a premium wasnt charged for it either.

 

I should add, they even went to expense of re-making the bodies of the NR example because the print was at an angle.. so why the distinct lack of interest in getting, arguably this years “Rocket of the year” highlight right ?

 

I dont even see this as that hard... a 1mm clear plastic rod (example above the body) from the roof to the existing back cab light (red line)  LED board (green) would get you where you need, then just add a terminal and an extra wire that joins the main light cluster to give the extra led power... they are only using 5 pins of the existing 9 pin led socket as it is.

 

7D42FBD8-4906-4901-8D16-460D15233EEC.jpeg.8503a914f0596728e8f0f675c919c858.jpeg

 

I can see a lot of disappointment forming if its true, though admittedly its hard to see how the response posted above wasnt official... I should add.. weve yet to see how they do with the paint shade too.. GBRF 50’s didnt inspire.

 

I think it would be wise to see if we can get an official answer on this, this isnt about canceling a £314 power car.. its a £650 train, get it wrong.. its a lot of warehouse space that could end up consumed for what looks a simple effort.

 

 

 

Edited by adb968008
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8 hours ago, Ouroborus said:

 

They've already done this for the network rail HST


No they have not. The only addition to the NMT power cars is the camera mounted below the cab window. That IIRC is a resin/plastic casting that is glued on. It is not part of the moulding and therefore Hornby haven't created a new tool for it.

If Hornby actually did go through the trouble of re-tooling the NMT power cars then why would they leave out the headlight on the cab roof?

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That takes the biscuit really. 

 

In a similar vein with pricing, the only reason I'm buying the LNER farewell set is because I want to do the set myself but painting up the power cars plus a full 7 car rake is just too labour intensive and besides, Hornby's finish will in most respects be better than mine anyway so I'm happy to pay the premium for that. Saying this though, if they don't paint the stainless steel surrounds to the light clusters I won't be very happy as that is the most annoying thing to do if I was painting them myself.

 

Cheers,

  60800 

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8 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:


No they have not. The only addition to the NMT power cars is the camera mounted below the cab window. That IIRC is a resin/plastic casting that is glued on. It is not part of the moulding and therefore Hornby haven't created a new tool for it.

If Hornby actually did go through the trouble of re-tooling the NMT power cars then why would they leave out the headlight on the cab roof?

No.

Its actually a drilled hole the plastic camera is push fitted into.

(and to your second part, when new the NMT didnt have a headlight).

I respect your loyalty to Hornby, but on this occasion, I think they are wrong,


2F87F31A-CC12-4414-B124-9D2F38793CA3.jpeg.208dce5ed332c21d02033dae216ae0e4.jpeg


 

if they can drill two 1mm holes below the drivers window, why can they not drill one hole above it ?

 

After that 3cm of clear plastic  rod direct unhindered straight line to the existing LED board, add 1 LED and put 2 wires into the 9 pin connector (has currently has 4 unused pins already).

I cant imagine factory cost being much more than pennies.

This is an easy mod, but on a £600 train many will be very apprehensive. The mod itself is easier than Hattons 66 LEDs, but does Hornby really have to copy Hattons even down to simple errors and possible bargain discounting ?

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

No.

Its actually a drilled hold the plastic camera is push fitted into.


2F87F31A-CC12-4414-B124-9D2F38793CA3.jpeg.208dce5ed332c21d02033dae216ae0e4.jpeg


 

if they can drill two holes below the drivers window, why can they not drill one above it ?

 

That really puts the nail on the coffin. The Hornby hst is a decent model, but as the price becomes higher, you’d expect more features or it to be accurate. But, these hsts are a long way off, given Hornbys recent release schedule (often not their fault) it will probably be delayed. I wonder if Hornby would reconsider,but I doubt it. As someone put earlier, compared to the likes of the new accurascale models packed to the gills with features and modifications, these do look outdated. 

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Ultimately this is all i’m asking for..

 

a simple washer, with a 1mm hole behind to an LED.

76876259-ACC7-49AE-8F15-452AF55C1ED9.jpeg.31107363dff1a0700ebc6949e81b9de2.jpeg

 

I can buy 2000 of these washer for £2... I wonder what they cost in China.

no new toolings required. (I will concede on the NR HST the light is not flush and may require tooling.. ).. but on the MP HST.. the LED is almost flush to the roof.

 

(not my image/flickr url)

Midland Pullman

The centre roof light is literally centre to this model..

The off white banding even arrow points up to it !

 

now youve seen it.. try pretending to un-see it, when spending £600.

 

 

Edited by adb968008
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13 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Ultimately this is all i’m asking for..

 

a simple washer, with a 1mm hole behind to an LED.

76876259-ACC7-49AE-8F15-452AF55C1ED9.jpeg.31107363dff1a0700ebc6949e81b9de2.jpeg

 

Beautiful work! As you say, It's not exactly hard. And before anyone throws the "well if it's so simple, do it yourself" card, no - if we can do it, Hornby can do it.

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2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Ultimately this is all i’m asking for..

 

a simple washer, with a 1mm hole behind to an LED.

76876259-ACC7-49AE-8F15-452AF55C1ED9.jpeg.31107363dff1a0700ebc6949e81b9de2.jpeg

 

I can buy 2000 of these washer for £2... I wonder what they cost in China.

no new toolings required. (I will concede on the NR HST the light is not flush and may require tooling.. ).. but on the MP HST.. the LED is almost flush to the roof.

 

 

 

 

Although they now carry camera housings that are much narrower - on a prominent backplate.

They were fitted before "Improving your Railway" was emblazoned on the side....

 

43013

 

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13 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:


No they have not. The only addition to the NMT power cars is the camera mounted below the cab window. That IIRC is a resin/plastic casting that is glued on. It is not part of the moulding and therefore Hornby haven't created a new tool for it.

If Hornby actually did go through the trouble of re-tooling the NMT power cars then why would they leave out the headlight on the cab roof?



Nobody is expecting a whole new tooling, but drilling a hole and push fitting a piece of plastic to represent something, as i said previously and now ADB968008 has shown you, something they've done before.

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3 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

Although they now carry camera housings that are much narrower - on a prominent backplate.

They were fitted before "Improving your Railway" was emblazoned on the side....

 

43013

 

Agreed, I just used that body for illustration on the Midland Pullman, as it was there to use, though I will be moving to making it look as above.

 

However, lets not get distracted, the focus is the Midland Pullman.

 

I think one aspect overlooked here is relationship..

The Midland Pullman is a passenger train, which looks set to become the only way average joe will enjoy a HST in future. The NR model is compromised, but, arguably on layouts will see less use and less impact than the Midland Pullman should.

 

As the Midland Pullman is both premium priced, and likely to be popular (and generate more future sales at this stage than the NR HST will going forwards), I think they should make a few minutes / pence effort to get it right.

 

 

 

 

 

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17 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

The Midland Pullman is a passenger train, which looks set to become the only way average joe will enjoy a HST in future. The NR model is compromised, but, arguably on layouts will see less use and less impact than the Midland Pullman should.

 

We will have to agree to disagree on that- most "average Joes" won't spend £380 for two people for a trip on an HST. The type will continue with XC, GWR and ScotRail for the foreseeable and in preservation. If anyone has both an NMT and a Midland Pullman stood in the fiddle yard I'd suggest they should run the NMT every fortnight or so, and the Midland Pullman once or twice a year if they are replicating reality at their chosen location!!

 

However, if they are modelling the mid 1990's at many mainline locations they might want an IC Swallow set or three, and exercise them 15-20 times a day...

 

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6 hours ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

We will have to agree to disagree on that- most "average Joes" won't spend £380 for two people for a trip on an HST. The type will continue with XC, GWR and ScotRail for the foreseeable and in preservation. If anyone has both an NMT and a Midland Pullman stood in the fiddle yard I'd suggest they should run the NMT every fortnight or so, and the Midland Pullman once or twice a year if they are replicating reality at their chosen location!!

 

However, if they are modelling the mid 1990's at many mainline locations they might want an IC Swallow set or three, and exercise them 15-20 times a day...

 

 

To be fair, if your modelling between Eastleigh and Crewe you could bring it out every few weeks... :lol:

 

Though i'm still with you on the lack of Merlin, FGW Fag Packet or Barbie... 

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5 hours ago, surfsup said:

 

 

 

Though i'm still with you on the lack of Merlin, FGW Fag Packet or Barbie... 

I’ll also add Intercity Executive. IC Exec, Merlin, FGW Fag Packet and Barbie ran for years and years. 
But they happily churn out a full set that ran for what.., a couple of days on the ECML farewell? I don’t get it how Hornby and Bachmann sometimes ignore huge periods in time and choose to go with stuff that had a limited or very limited period of running. Or they ignore mundane liveries that were plentiful across the board and instead go with real oddities. One offs. Quirky liveries. It Baffles me!
66738

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12 hours ago, 66738 said:

I’ll also add Intercity Executive. IC Exec, Merlin, FGW Fag Packet and Barbie ran for years and years. 
But they happily churn out a full set that ran for what.., a couple of days on the ECML farewell? I don’t get it how Hornby and Bachmann sometimes ignore huge periods in time and choose to go with stuff that had a limited or very limited period of running. Or they ignore mundane liveries that were plentiful across the board and instead go with real oddities. One offs. Quirky liveries. It Baffles me!
66738

As has been said before, there is a huge market for people who buy stuff as a "collection" and would be horrified at the suggestion they actually take it out of the box and run it on a layout, and would consider it total sacrilege to modify or detail the model in any way. Their hobby is no less valid than us trying to actually model railways but does explain why these "novelty" releases are such surefire sellers. Three HSTs this year, two of which are "look at me" show ponies - unrepresentative of a type into its 45th year in service.

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1 hour ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

As has been said before, there is a huge market for people who buy stuff as a "collection" and would be horrified at the suggestion they actually take it out of the box and run it on a layout, and would consider it total sacrilege to modify or detail the model in any way. Their hobby is no less valid than us trying to actually model railways but does explain why these "novelty" releases are such surefire sellers. Three HSTs this year, two of which are "look at me" show ponies - unrepresentative of a type into its 45th year in service.

 

Hornby have always had a reputation for "show ponies" as part of their range

 

Large steam locos, named diesels etc.

 

Have they yet done an un-named DB red 60 for example?

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1 hour ago, newbryford said:

 

Hornby have always had a reputation for "show ponies" as part of their range

 

Large steam locos, named diesels etc.

 

Have they yet done an un-named DB red 60 for example?

 

Hornby be like "Ahahahahaha. Sorry, what?"

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 21/01/2021 at 16:12, David12 said:

It isn't only the top headlight that's different from the HST "standard". Note the driver's side window - it has been partially blocked out to give a clean line around the livery. I cannot imagine for one second that Hornby will correct that detail, either. And don't even ask about the Kitchen and Buffet car modifications. I was totally committed to buying a set - no more. This is an example of Hornby modelling expertise at its worst: minimum effort, maximum profit. Thank goodness for the likes of Accurascale and other manufacturers that care about those of us who are prepared to pay for models and not accept second rate efforts like this is already turning out to be.

IMG_2408.JPG

........and i wont be buying this set for that very same reason and of course the top headlight issue as well. Hornby would do well to look at what Accurascale are bringing to the market and UP their game.

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3 hours ago, Krieghoff said:

........and i wont be buying this set for that very same reason and of course the top headlight issue as well. Hornby would do well to look at what Accurascale are bringing to the market and UP their game.


But Hornby's target market and Accurascale's target market are two different things. Whether Hornby makes those modifications or not, they will still sell out (GBRf Class 50???). If Accurascale doesn't go to such lengths to get accurate models, they will feel the pinch to a point where it can affect their sales/profits. Funnily enough if Accurascale had to come out and say oh well making these modifications was too costly and therefore we had to compromise, they'll get a lot of vocal support rather than criticism.

When two companies have a different target market, especially if they are serving different ends or different areas of the spectrum, the same business logic cannot be applied.

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