Hornby 2021 - HST & Mk3 range

[MGR Hooper!]

On 21/01/2021 at 21:42, David12 said:

It isn't only the top headlight that's different from the HST "standard". Note the driver's side window - it has been partially blocked out to give a clean line around the livery. I cannot imagine for one second that Hornby will correct that detail, either. And don't even ask about the Kitchen and Buffet car modifications. I was totally committed to buying a set - no more. This is an example of Hornby modelling expertise at its worst: minimum effort, maximum profit. Thank goodness for the likes of Accurascale and other manufacturers that care about those of us who are prepared to pay for models and not accept second rate efforts like this is already turning out to be.

The funny thing is that Hornby have in the past printed over windows to depict different variations and window sizes. So I cannot understand how you are so sure about something like this??? The only thing you're going by is a hastily edited image that we all know has errors in it.

[Ouroborus]

10 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:

But Hornby's target market and Accurascale's target market are two different things. 

 

I'm not sure they are.   The class 800 is a fine model, well detailed.  The 87, similarly so.  But where they differ is Hornby apparent mindset of 'that'll do'.   Taking care with design to allow fitting of speakers seems to be something they  just did not consider, yet they repeat the mistake.  Still with 8 pin decoders when most others are now on 21 and 22. 

 

And they get away with it when built down to a price.   Few are critical of the 66's when they're £60.  But start charging top dollar for less than stellar items and the grumbles start.  With Pullman HST, not only is it a high price, but there is an additional premium because.....  well, because of what?    

People aren't stupid and a perception that they are being ripped off will cost Hornby.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Ouroborus

[letterspider]

Nobody has to buy the model

[Rhydgaled]

  

On 10/01/2021 at 16:49, Mackenzie546 said:

 

i thought the same, but i have just looked at the image after pre ordering, and (yes i know its a photoshopped image so may or may not mean anything) it does have the correct vents to not be a repainted RFM

 

I wouldn't hold out much hope if I were you. The photoshops for the LNER and BR/LNER farewell tour, 407xx buffets both show the standard TF/TS roof (both Pullman buffets (here and here) are shown with the plain roof too). Since they presumably have a correct 407xx image they could photoshop into the desired livery, this suggests they are expecting/intending to use the wrong roof on the 407xx buffets. Only the dynamic lines one (probably a Limby RFM) and the Network Rail buffet seem to be shown with vents in the middle of the roof.

 

On 05/01/2021 at 15:13, BR Blue said:

I would prefer to wait for them to retool the earlier mk3s to the standard of the later ones - matching TGS, variety of restaurant cars with correct vents applied etc. Was not expecting them this year but hopefully in future.

I would say that the mark 3s (livery errors and use of wrong rooves/interiors excepted) are of an equal level of detail, the problem is the inconsistency and lack of tooling variants. There is a huge range of different mark 3 vehicles; you have the basic types 3a, 3b, sliding door and plug door (is there any visible different between the IC125 trailers and the mark 3b?), with/without central door locking and various buffets with different window layouts plus of course the TGS and BFO. I'm quite happy with the level of detail, and wouldn't want to pay more for fine seperately fitted details which could easily be snapped off, but Hornby do need to at least get the rooves right, tool up a proper 4-window IC125 buffet and ideally make tooling slides (or something) that allows them to include/exclude central door locking lights from all the different vehicle types at will (no more being stuck with CDL lights).

 

1 hour ago, Ouroborus said:

And they get away with it when built down to a price.   Few are critical of the 66's when they're £60.  But start charging top dollar for less than stellar items and the grumbles start.  With Pullman HST, not only is it a high price, but there is an additional premium because.....  well, because of what? 

I agree; I thought the Blue Pullman power cars were more expensive because a tooling change had been necessary, now it doesn't appear there is any reason for the price increase. Even without the price increase, the super detail HST power cars are firmly in the 'finescale super detail model that I'll probably just ruin by heavy handling snapping off fine details' bracket for me. At that price, I can sympathise with those who expect the details to be spot on, down to the exact number of 'rivets' on the 'washer' around the headlight. I'm not in the market for the Blue Pullman livery one anyway, but even if they produced one in accurate Swallow livery I think I'll stick with Lima; the super detail model is just too expensive.

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

2 hours ago, Ouroborus said:

 

I'm not sure they are.   The class 800 is a fine model, well detailed.  The 87, similarly so.  But where they differ is Hornby apparent mindset of 'that'll do'.   Taking care with design to allow fitting of speakers seems to be something they  just did not consider, yet they repeat the mistake.  Still with 8 pin decoders when most others are now on 21 and 22. 

 

And they get away with it when built down to a price.   Few are critical of the 66's when they're £60.  But start charging top dollar for less than stellar items and the grumbles start.  With Pullman HST, not only is it a high price, but there is an additional premium because.....  well, because of what?    

People aren't stupid and a perception that they are being ripped off will cost Hornby.

Hornby seem to want the best of both worlds, cut corners on the model and compromises but still charge £314 for a loco and an empty loco shell. If we are to now accept that the RRP of a dummy HST power car on its own is now £70 that places the Midland Pullman power car at an RRP of £244- anyone spending £244 on a power car should expect a pretty impressive model.

[surfsup]

4 hours ago, Ouroborus said:

 

I'm not sure they are.   The class 800 is a fine model, well detailed.  The 87, similarly so.  But where they differ is Hornby apparent mindset of 'that'll do'.   Taking care with design to allow fitting of speakers seems to be something they  just did not consider, yet they repeat the mistake.  Still with 8 pin decoders when most others are now on 21 and 22. 

 

And they get away with it when built down to a price.   Few are critical of the 66's when they're £60.  But start charging top dollar for less than stellar items and the grumbles start.  With Pullman HST, not only is it a high price, but there is an additional premium because.....  well, because of what?    

People aren't stupid and a perception that they are being ripped off will cost Hornby.

 

I wouldn't say Hornby's markets are different to Accurascale's either. As time will tell very shortly, both do Class 92s. Where they both differ is as you point out, Hornby's "That'll do" approach - They had the far nicer and more detailed ex Lima tooling in their bank, yet chose to trot out the old Hornby tooling. Accurascale are doing a 92, and unlike the 87, will have the correct lighting / pantograph & better DCC provision etc. 

[newbryford]

16 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:

But Hornby's target market and Accurascale's target market are two different things. Whether Hornby makes those modifications or not, they will still sell out (GBRf Class 50???). If Accurascale doesn't go to such lengths to get accurate models, they will feel the pinch to a point where it can affect their sales/profits. Funnily enough if Accurascale had to come out and say oh well making these modifications was too costly and therefore we had to compromise, they'll get a lot of vocal support rather than criticism.

When two companies have a different target market, especially if they are serving different ends or different areas of the spectrum, the same business logic cannot be applied.

 

What/who is Hornby's target market ? Collectors and those dewy-eyed that have bought into the whole Hornby nostalgia thing?

The Hornby HST is a cash cow and they know it.

[JohnC]

Have to say, love the Hornby HST. Just re-numbered 43005 to 43098 and affixed Walton Castle etched plates from Rainbow Railways. 43041 Meningitus trust has had name removed and will become St Catherine’s Castle and the pair will make up my GWR Castle set with sliding door stock.

 

[adb968008]

Thanks ive been waiting for someone to do these nameplates for ages !

[Class 158 productions]

Saw the recent video of the blue Pullman early sample. No headlight (top) we knew this. Wrong exhaust cowlings for ex EMT VP185 powercars and a few livery discrepancies. Although nice to see Hornby providing samples 

[MGR Hooper!]

Just spoke to a well known Hornby rep, I was told that the sample was made rather hastily around the time that the real set hit the rails. So they do have a few differences. But all the errors have been noted down. Feedback happily accepted and they'll show us a future sample when it reaches Hornby HQ.

[InterCity80s]

The description under the YouTube video emphasises that:

 

Please be aware the Midland Pullman is a mock up sample based on a previous HST. This is purely to give you an idea of what the livery will look like based on past HST's and is subject to livery and detail changes. As we receive development samples we will be sharing them with you so that you are able to see the development of this exciting model.

[Legend]

23 hours ago, cbrooks122000 said:

I bought the Intercity HST at a grand price of £260 (10% off ),  I bought it to replace my 1980's HST, but to be quit honest was a bit disappointed. I cannot see how Hornby justify such a high price, it is effectively a loco and a carriage with reduced detail (no seating etc). In engineering terms a Bachmann two carriage DMU is cheaper and probably costs more to make. Admittedly the doors open on my HST but I know if I do it too often they will probably fall off  There again if I compare a Bachmann class 66 with a Hornby class 50 again in engineering terms the Bachmann seems better made, has provision for a speaker and has taken the trouble to design in the DCC system properly and again is cheaper. On the Bachmann class 66 there are even small clips for the wiring, Hornby use tape.

Simple reason . It’s Hornbys cash cow . No competition . They can charge what they want , people still buy it . Just look at the Blue Pullman with no added headlight £330 but i bet it’ll still sell .  

Edited February 14, 2021 by Legend

[MGR Hooper!]

9 hours ago, cbrooks122000 said:

I bought the Intercity HST at a grand price of £260 (10% off ),  I bought it to replace my 1980's HST, but to be quit honest was a bit disappointed. I cannot see how Hornby justify such a high price, it is effectively a loco and a carriage with reduced detail (no seating etc). In engineering terms a Bachmann two carriage DMU is cheaper and probably costs more to make. Admittedly the doors open on my HST but I know if I do it too often they will probably fall off  There again if I compare a Bachmann class 66 with a Hornby class 50 again in engineering terms the Bachmann seems better made, has provision for a speaker and has taken the trouble to design in the DCC system properly and again is cheaper. On the Bachmann class 66 there are even small clips for the wiring, Hornby use tape.

 

TBH if Hattons didn't bring out their Class 66, the Bachmann one would've seen a steady increase in price like all their other models.

 

As for the Hornby HST, as @Legend said, it's their cash cow. I won't directly blame Hornby for it, because no matter what price they set it at, it will sell, because there's no competition. 

 

I missed the opportunity to buy Hornby HSTs when they were cheap. Totally regret that now. The worst part is now that the price of current releases is so high, even the second hand ones sell for more than their original RRPs. 

[adb968008]

5 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:

 

TBH if Hattons didn't bring out their Class 66, the Bachmann one would've seen a steady increase in price like all their other models.

 

As for the Hornby HST, as @Legend said, it's their cash cow. I won't directly blame Hornby for it, because no matter what price they set it at, it will sell, because there's no competition. 

 

I missed the opportunity to buy Hornby HSTs when they were cheap. Totally regret that now. The worst part is now that the price of current releases is so high, even the second hand ones sell for more than their original RRPs. 

 

at £299 for a pair, I couldnt help noticing the forthcoming HST DVT at £75.. as it puts the motorised power car at £224.

 

They have milked the HST but I cant see much more mileage in it, after this year there is EMR / EMT, which could be  popular, and Room for more EMT coaches, and maybe Colas and an Intercity original livery pair after that its pretty much done.

 

LSLs spare HST rake has just gone to Eastleigh , I am not sure they need two full rakes in MP blue livery.

Edited February 14, 2021 by adb968008

[Wolf27]

On 13/02/2021 at 03:26, MGR Hooper! said:

Just spoke to a well known Hornby rep, I was told that the sample was made rather hastily around the time that the real set hit the rails. So they do have a few differences. But all the errors have been noted down. Feedback happily accepted and they'll show us a future sample when it reaches Hornby HQ.

Anyone with any sense would have seen that it was a mock up, I don’t know why everyone got so bent out of shape about it. 

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

4 minutes ago, cbrooks122000 said:

Mind you they have still got to release the APT, I know Covid delayed everything, so I do wonder when any of these new models will get released. Perhaps we ought to get "Rails" or "Hattons" to say they are making one, that seems to get Hornby releasing it in double quick time. I assume the APT is much better detail than the Pendulino, but in real life the Pendulino was derived from the APT.

Only derived from the APT in that both are tilting electric trains, on the same basis Class 395 EMUs are derived from Class 302's.

 

With regard the HST- Hornby seem careful to restrict supply which causes prices to remain high on the resale market meaning there is scarcity forcing modellers to wait and buy new ones from Hornby. Look at IC "Executive"- one pair released early on and nil since. Then look at IC Swallow, the staple of the decade leading up to privatisation, only two pairs ever released and one of them a premium priced DCC/sound only run and both pairs depicting Eastern/Scottish ones.

 

[MGR Hooper!]

2 hours ago, Wolf27 said:

Anyone with any sense would have seen that it was a mock up, I don’t know why everyone got so bent out of shape about it. 

 

Yes it was quite obvious.... But people love a good moan about anything Hornby, so you can't stop them. 

[newbryford]

 

On 13/02/2021 at 03:26, MGR Hooper! said:

Just spoke to a well known Hornby rep, I was told that the sample was made rather hastily around the time that the real set hit the rails. So they do have a few differences. But all the errors have been noted down. Feedback happily accepted and they'll show us a future sample when it reaches Hornby HQ.

 

2 hours ago, Wolf27 said:

Anyone with any sense would have seen that it was a mock up, I don’t know why everyone got so bent out of shape about it. 

 

So if the BP HST does happen to appear with an upper headlight, then I hope they'll modify the coaches to suit - without just painting over windows. I half expect that it'll be a painted lamp

But I don't hold out much hope.

Edited February 14, 2021 by newbryford

[Wolf27]

18 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

 

 

So if the BP HST does happen to appear with an upper headlight, then I hope they'll modify the coaches to suit - without just painting over windows. I half expect that it'll be a painted lamp

But I don't hold out much hope.

Think Hornby have stated they won’t be adding a working upper headlight as it would be ‘too much work’ or words to that effect. Expect a printed impression. But as it’s Hornbys cash cow and they know they will sell out, they won’t be too fussed. Maybe because the market they are going for isn’t worried about such trivial details.....

[newbryford]

21 minutes ago, cbrooks122000 said:

Perhaps they shouldn't release the pictures of the "mock ups" to the press. I used to work in R & D at the Ford Motor Company and some of our "mock ups" were horrendous, but generally they were either disguised or never driven on open roads.  

 

That's not really a comparison as car makers are trying to create something unique - not copy something in a smaller form.

 

 

[boxbrownie]

38 minutes ago, MGR Hooper! said:

 

Yes it was quite obvious.... But people love a good moan about anything Hornby, so you can't stop them. 

Oh come on, people like to moan about any new model from any manufacturer, even some of the really niche stuff gets some stick occasionally, it’s not exclusive to Hornby...anyway they are big and dirty enough to take it 

[boxbrownie]

35 minutes ago, cbrooks122000 said:

Perhaps they shouldn't release the pictures of the "mock ups" to the press. I used to work in R & D at the Ford Motor Company and some of our "mock ups" were horrendous, but generally they were either disguised or never driven on open roads.

They looked horrendous (well some did) but they were roadworthy, until they met the chuck holes at 30 kph 

[boxbrownie]

1 minute ago, cbrooks122000 said:

Not always, quite often they modify existing designs. I worked on a "two stroke" Fiesta, I don't think the public ever knew about it, similarly there was a "rag top" Fiesta and a 4x4 Escort XR3.  Again we were never allowed to lift the bonnet in public. 

Don’t forget the “plastic engined” Fiesta.......

[Wolf27]

2 minutes ago, cbrooks122000 said:

I never saw that one.

It was on Tomorrows World long, long ago.