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Hornby 2021 - Rocket packs


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7 hours ago, RyanN91 said:

 I think it would be good if Hornby released the following of more locomotives/rolling stock passenger packs,

 

A First class carriage 3 pack of the 3 first class coaches on their own.

 

Rocket locomotive on it's own.

 

Or for this new train pack a Rocket coach pack of the remaining two First Class carriages. 

 

Royal Mail coach available separately on its own as a standalone release.  

 

This way all of my suggestions along with the current announced Rocket packs rolling stock, that are available people could therefore have all of the Rocket rolling stock in which ever combination of packs along with the Rocket. But who knows? My suggestions are purely speculation.

No chance of that lot.

 

Hornbys jobbing out Rockets and coaches to maximise the dime they get out of you.

If you bought Rocket last year, and want the mail coach, you now own two Rockets, 6 coaches and they extract another triple digit sale out of you.

 

They missed a trick releasing the 3rd class coach as a single, under priced, but now they've done a 3 pack at the higher price, but that horse has already bolted.

With a 3rd Rocket and 9 coaches, and 4 different 3rd and 3 wagons... thats a lot for a theme which only has 1 experimental engine in the range to pull it, x3 if you bought the lot.

 

Down the road, i’ll expect you’ll get the coaches extracted from sets in the second hand market quite cheaply, accompanied with damaged Rockets that become disposables due to their highly fragile nature, except the mail coach which will carry a premium.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by adb968008
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Hi Folks,

 

Lots of talk about mail coaches on here, and I have done some more reading which is always a problem when you find or work things out.

 

I have discovered that, of the carriages converted to mail coaches, Wellington was a three compartment carriage, seating four to a compartment, with wheels that had inside bearings as the picture on page 2, Lord Derby may have looked something like the blue mail coach I have built, also on page 2, and the third was named fly which looked similar to what I have built an approximation of from various pictures. A plate on page 51 of RHG Thomas' book shews what appears to be either a first class road type coach or mail coach from the converted Fly.

 

I have found two pictures of Wellington and both shew the wheels to have inside bearings and that the coach body does not overhang the frames, which are set between the wheels. This would, given that the back to back of a modern wheel set of 4' 5 5/8", make the body of the coach approximate 4' 3" maximum hence four to a compartment. It also suggests that the red mail coach with yellow internal frames in the Akerman print may be the converted Wellington.

 

The only picture of a blue mail coach I have found shews the frames external to the wheels and the body of similar width to the frames as the Hornby coach which suits me just fine !!!

 

Three coach bodies were supplied to the L&MR, one each by John Gorst and Richard Jones of Liverpool and one from Lacy & Allen of Manchester. The one supplied by Lacy and Allen had its carriage frame returned to the builders which suggest that it is likely to be of the type below, as possibly were the ones built in Liverpool. It is my guess that the carriage frame returned was a road type frame and only used to deliver the coach body to the L&MR, the body was then fitted it to a railway type frame set.

 

It may be that these were the first three first class carriages of L&MR which then adapted the designs and technologies of the coach bodies into the Wellington type coaches with seating for twelve in three compartments, with internal frames and wheel bearings. These may have then developed into the later type that seated eighteen in three compartments, with external frames and wheel bearings.

 

The carriages were to a general specification with differences to details and finish, "according to the taste of the builders", perhaps not a subject for the dedicated rivet counter !

 

DSCF1346.JPG.6a018620639af148ccd70439f67128df.JPG

An early first class carriage, I have painted it green as of all the pictures I have found all shew a green body, I might do a yellow one another day. The horse box is based upon the Akerman paintings.

 

My next build is a set of central access second class blue carriges.

 

Gibbo.

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I see that the flatbed wagons are showing as being in stock on the Hornby website. I guess that they will be in the shops in the next few days. 

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28 minutes ago, Kris said:

I see that the flatbed wagons are showing as being in stock on the Hornby website. I guess that they will be in the shops in the next few days. 

I received mine a few days ago from Model Railways Direct, who sadly seem to have sold out. But they are out there! 

52594DD4-0FDC-496E-980E-E2C436F5985F.jpeg

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16 hours ago, Watto1990 said:

I received mine a few days ago from Model Railways Direct, who sadly seem to have sold out. But they are out there! 

52594DD4-0FDC-496E-980E-E2C436F5985F.jpeg

Are you going to remove the footsteps which are erroneous on these wagons ?

Maybe refit one at one end on each side for staff access.

Ray

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On 24/01/2021 at 12:34, wainwright1 said:

Are you going to remove the footsteps which are erroneous on these wagons ?

Maybe refit one at one end on each side for staff access.

Ray

Hi Ray

 

It is worse than that, research into the goods wagons shews that they were smaller than the passenger carriages some coal wagons were only 9'6" long and 3'9" wide. I have so far built three 9'6" flat wagons and have planned some others that will be 12'6" long. Better yet most wagons were not fitted with buffers until after 1833.

 

DSCF1374.JPG.8605152895f33d2bf93928ef90dab94b.JPG

 

Gibbo.

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9 minutes ago, Dan Hamblin said:

Is it conceivable that the Hornby wagons were more likely to exist later than 1830, when older passenger carriages were being replaced and possibly re-purposed?

 

Regards,

 

Dan

Hi Dan,

 

It is likely from around 1840 onwards that such flat wagons may have been made from old carriages. I am busy building stock up for a layout of the early 1830's and my builds, should you be interested, are on my thread.

 

Rocket itself was rebuilt in 1830 with lowered cylinders and a new tender it was later sold on to a colliery in Brampton in 1836 as too small and underpowered for requirements of the L&MR.

 

Gibbo.

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11 hours ago, Dan Hamblin said:

Is it conceivable that the Hornby wagons were more likely to exist later than 1830, when older passenger carriages were being replaced and possibly re-purposed?

 

Regards,

 

Dan

The wagon chassis is based on the 1929 reproduction Rocket 100 coaches, so in that sense its as real as the generic coaches, as afaik only 1st and 3rds were made in 1929, as only rudimentary drawings exist of 1829 its a guess of an artist who may or may not been accurate in his paintings, that without photography or long poses, may have been made from fleeting recollections of a passing train... considering trains may not have even been his forte of knowledge.

 

I question all these tall hats and umbrellas... any loco crew will tell you even on a preserved railway at 20mph, flat caps are lost on a footplate... how did those blokes keep their suite clean and top hats straight without any protection from Lancashire winds, even at 20mph.

 

I wonder if we will see a faux chaldron at somepoint, I dont see them in the drawings, but chaldrons would surely be the one of the first things the LMR tacked onto.

 

i think the Ackerman prints are a glimpse of the past, but treat them like a Dutch master rather than a blueprint, corporate propaganda and social influencers  still existed in victorian times.

consider these for example, 1831 and the race between one of Americas first locomotives, Tom Thumb, and the horse... spot the difference in rolling stock.. for what is two depictions of the same event..

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704479404575087364040934540
https://www.wired.com/2008/09/sept-18-1830-horse-beats-iron-horse-for-the-time-being/

(at least in one of them passengers are holding onto their hats).
 

Hornbys wagons are a generic, based on a guess, based on an artist impression... if you want to see how that go go awry.. take a look at the victorian sculptures of dinosaurs at Crystal palace and convincing victorian illustrated sailors stories of sea creatures and mermaids.

The phrase ‘ a camera never lies’ was only born from the prior technology of Artists impressions.. which can bend the truth, especially if bending it earns money and no one can really question it as its already a few years old when drawn / published...

 

for example take a look of these 1838 London and Birmingham railway coaches, 10 years newer... they look much closer to Rockets 1930’s replicas than Ackermans 1820’s... for the LMR... was the LMS using the “right” 1830’s drawings ?

http://www.railalbum.co.uk/early-railways/london-birmingham-railway-1.htm

 

 

in absence of any thing else, my impression of the first “luxury” railway carriages, would be a stagecoach on railway wheels, and 3rd class a Chaldron.. after all a coach and a chaldron were well versed and understood skills, for hundreds of years, just transfered to a rail wheel instead of a road.. and just evolved from there.

 

 

Edited by adb968008
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9 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

Hornbys wagons are a generic, based on a guess, based on an artist impression... if you want to see how that go go awry.. take a look at the victorian sculptures of dinosaurs at Crystal palace and convincing victorian illustrated sailors stories of sea creatures and mermaids.

The phrase ‘ a camera never lies’ was only born from the prior technology of Artists impressions.. which can bend the truth, especially if bending it earns money and no one can really question it as its already a few years old when drawn / published...

 

 

 

It is interesting that the majority of early railway art I've come across is extremely flat and unrealistic (at least that which was published for public consumptions in magazines etc). I wonder if that was just the art style at the time or more to do with the fact that people had never seen such things before and were very unfamiliar with drawing them...

 

Take the piece here for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rail_transport_in_Great_Britain_1830–1922

The carriages seem awfully small and crammed and the wheels are barely visible, looking like they aren't supported or connected by any structure at all. They also seem very close to the trackbed and there isn't a hook on the back of the carriage for coupling. 

 

I think you're right in assuming a lot of it was probably done by memory/imagination and it's very interesting to see how people thought these vehicles should be best represented on paper. It would be helpful if there were some accurate drawings from the period though, I feel like I'm trying to piece together a ruined castle at an archeological dig site when all I want is some L&M wagons! 

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35 minutes ago, Otis JB said:

 

 

It is interesting that the majority of early railway art I've come across is extremely flat and unrealistic (at least that which was published for public consumptions in magazines etc). I wonder if that was just the art style at the time or more to do with the fact that people had never seen such things before and were very unfamiliar with drawing them...

 

Take the piece here for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rail_transport_in_Great_Britain_1830–1922

The carriages seem awfully small and crammed and the wheels are barely visible, looking like they aren't supported or connected by any structure at all. They also seem very close to the trackbed and there isn't a hook on the back of the carriage for coupling. 

 

I think you're right in assuming a lot of it was probably done by memory/imagination and it's very interesting to see how people thought these vehicles should be best represented on paper. It would be helpful if there were some accurate drawings from the period though, I feel like I'm trying to piece together a ruined castle at an archeological dig site when all I want is some L&M wagons! 

Hi Otis,

 

Here is a link Stephenson's drawing of a second class carriage which is good for axle box and frame details;

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/community/blog-and-news/engine-shed/expanding-stephensons-rocket-train-pack-announcing-launch-lmr-third-class-carriage

 

There are some reasonable drawings of wagons in the following links, all of which are quite small:

 

This one shews a 9' coal container wagon in reasonable detail being hand shunted at Wapping Goods Station;

http://build2understand.10centuries.org/

 

This one shews various types of wagons on what I have estimated at 9'6" and 12'6" frames;

 

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-print-showing-two-views-of-freight-trains-of-the-liverpool-and-manchester-90828263.html?pv=1&stamp=2&imageid=B6516A39-BFA1-43AE-9617-C4A4835670E7&p=75935&n=0&orientation=0&pn=1&searchtype=0&IsFromSearch=1&srch=foo%3dbar%26st%3d0%26pn%3d1%26ps%3d100%26sortby%3d2%26resultview%3dsortbyPopular%26npgs%3d0%26qt%3dliverpool%20to%20manchester%20railway%26qt_raw%3dliverpool%20to%20manchester%20railway%26lic%3d3%26mr%3d0%26pr%3d0%26ot%3d0%26creative%3d%26ag%3d0%26hc%3d0%26pc%3d%26blackwhite%3d%26cutout%3d%26tbar%3d1%26et%3d0x000000000000000000000%26vp%3d0%26loc%3d0%26imgt%3d0%26dtfr%3d%26dtto%3d%26size%3d0xFF%26archive%3d1%26groupid%3d%26pseudoid%3d%26a%3d%26cdid%3d%26cdsrt%3d%26name%3d%26qn%3d%26apalib%3d%26apalic%3d%26lightbox%3d%26gname%3d%26gtype%3d%26xstx%3d0%26simid%3d%26saveQry%3d%26editorial%3d1%26nu%3d%26t%3d%26edoptin%3d%26customgeoip%3d%26cap%3d1%26cbstore%3d1%26vd%3d0%26lb%3d%26fi%3d2%26edrf%3d%26ispremium%3d1%26flip%3d0%26pl%3d

 

Gibbo.

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On 23/01/2021 at 20:01, Watto1990 said:

I received mine a few days ago from Model Railways Direct, who sadly seem to have sold out. But they are out there! 

 

I believe there are still some in the warehouse at Hornby, so I'd guess that shops can still get them.

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33 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Otis,

 

Here is a link Stephenson's drawing of a second class carriage which is good for axle box and frame details;

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/community/blog-and-news/engine-shed/expanding-stephensons-rocket-train-pack-announcing-launch-lmr-third-class-carriage

 

There are some reasonable drawings of wagons in the following links, all of which are quite small:

 

This one shews a 9' coal container wagon in reasonable detail being hand shunted at Wapping Goods Station;

http://build2understand.10centuries.org/

 

This one shews various types of wagons on what I have estimated at 9'6" and 12'6" frames;

 

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-print-showing-two-views-of-freight-trains-of-the-liverpool-and-manchester-90828263.html?pv=1&stamp=2&imageid=B6516A39-BFA1-43AE-9617-C4A4835670E7&p=75935&n=0&orientation=0&pn=1&searchtype=0&IsFromSearch=1&srch=foo%3dbar%26st%3d0%26pn%3d1%26ps%3d100%26sortby%3d2%26resultview%3dsortbyPopular%26npgs%3d0%26qt%3dliverpool%20to%20manchester%20railway%26qt_raw%3dliverpool%20to%20manchester%20railway%26lic%3d3%26mr%3d0%26pr%3d0%26ot%3d0%26creative%3d%26ag%3d0%26hc%3d0%26pc%3d%26blackwhite%3d%26cutout%3d%26tbar%3d1%26et%3d0x000000000000000000000%26vp%3d0%26loc%3d0%26imgt%3d0%26dtfr%3d%26dtto%3d%26size%3d0xFF%26archive%3d1%26groupid%3d%26pseudoid%3d%26a%3d%26cdid%3d%26cdsrt%3d%26name%3d%26qn%3d%26apalib%3d%26apalic%3d%26lightbox%3d%26gname%3d%26gtype%3d%26xstx%3d0%26simid%3d%26saveQry%3d%26editorial%3d1%26nu%3d%26t%3d%26edoptin%3d%26customgeoip%3d%26cap%3d1%26cbstore%3d1%26vd%3d0%26lb%3d%26fi%3d2%26edrf%3d%26ispremium%3d1%26flip%3d0%26pl%3d

 

Gibbo.

 

Thanks a lot, Gibbo, this will be very useful. 

 

I have been avidly following your excellent efforts at period stock with a close eye, very impressive stuff!

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Regarding the wheelbase, given that surviving coaches from the later 1830s and early 1840s all have the slightly longer wheelbase proportions like the 1930 replicas would suggest that lessons in vehicle stabilty were quickly learned. Sustained higher speeds (and in this case we're talking at 25-40mph range) were quite a new experience.

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On 24/01/2021 at 12:34, wainwright1 said:

Are you going to remove the footsteps which are erroneous on these wagons ?

Maybe refit one at one end on each side for staff access.

Ray

 

They are Open Carriage Trucks. NPCCS rather than wagons (or passenger carrying according to paintings and written evidence).

 

They had foot steps according to the paintings (later copied for the stamps)

 

https://www.collectgbstamps.co.uk/explore/issues/?issue=168#collectgbstamps-4

 

 

Jason

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Had little fun with my Flat Pack... possible industrial use...

A short running session featuring the Hornby R3640 Peckett W4 0-4-0ST - "Niclausse", plus all new R60014 Liverpool & Manchester Railway Flat Wagons edited with real sound. 
Sounds are provided follow Peckett, R4 Class 0-4-0ST, No. 2129 based at the Pallot Steam, Motor & General Museum, Jersey.
Here we see "Niclausse" in her smart Peckett lined green, hauling a short of Liverpool & Manchester Railway Flat Wagons (which could of possible entered into industrial service in their later lives). 
Hope you enjoy!

 

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Hi Folks,

 

I have uncovered this news paper article from the Liverpool Mercury June 11th 1830. 

 

81f12a825810b7a559ff6bb4ec65ba86.png.575bc184f5faf29c47f8b88c7de22323.png

A post chaise as mentioned above is a half compartment that is placed forward of the main carriage body sometimes open, sometimes glazed.

 

Here is a link to a description of a French Dilligence Stage Coach:

 

https://www.britannica.com/technology/diligence

 

Gibbo.

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On 26/01/2021 at 14:53, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Otis,

 

Here is a link Stephenson's drawing of a second class carriage which is good for axle box and frame details;

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/community/blog-and-news/engine-shed/expanding-stephensons-rocket-train-pack-announcing-launch-lmr-third-class-carriage

 

There are some reasonable drawings of wagons in the following links, all of which are quite small:

 

This one shews a 9' coal container wagon in reasonable detail being hand shunted at Wapping Goods Station;

http://build2understand.10centuries.org/

 

This one shews various types of wagons on what I have estimated at 9'6" and 12'6" frames;

 

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-print-showing-two-views-of-freight-trains-of-the-liverpool-and-manchester-90828263.html?pv=1&stamp=2&imageid=B6516A39-BFA1-43AE-9617-C4A4835670E7&p=75935&n=0&orientation=0&pn=1&searchtype=0&IsFromSearch=1&srch=foo%3dbar%26st%3d0%26pn%3d1%26ps%3d100%26sortby%3d2%26resultview%3dsortbyPopular%26npgs%3d0%26qt%3dliverpool%20to%20manchester%20railway%26qt_raw%3dliverpool%20to%20manchester%20railway%26lic%3d3%26mr%3d0%26pr%3d0%26ot%3d0%26creative%3d%26ag%3d0%26hc%3d0%26pc%3d%26blackwhite%3d%26cutout%3d%26tbar%3d1%26et%3d0x000000000000000000000%26vp%3d0%26loc%3d0%26imgt%3d0%26dtfr%3d%26dtto%3d%26size%3d0xFF%26archive%3d1%26groupid%3d%26pseudoid%3d%26a%3d%26cdid%3d%26cdsrt%3d%26name%3d%26qn%3d%26apalib%3d%26apalic%3d%26lightbox%3d%26gname%3d%26gtype%3d%26xstx%3d0%26simid%3d%26saveQry%3d%26editorial%3d1%26nu%3d%26t%3d%26edoptin%3d%26customgeoip%3d%26cap%3d1%26cbstore%3d1%26vd%3d0%26lb%3d%26fi%3d2%26edrf%3d%26ispremium%3d1%26flip%3d0%26pl%3d

 

Gibbo.

 

The replica open seconds of 1929-30 look distinctly like a reinterpretation of the Stephenson drawing with "proper" wheels and axleboxes and a rather longer wheelbase - ie cleaned up with modern wagon running gear by an interwar professional carriage and wagon engineer who was designing a vehicle underframe he knew would run soundly rather than building an exact replica of the drawings. I wouldn't be surprised to discover that the replica coaches have standard LMS wagon springs and axleboxes - it would be the simplest way for Derby to do the job

 

The logical approach would then be to take the second class carriage underframe so produced and derive a first class carriage body to fit it, based on the prints

 

It would be interesting to compare the compartment widths with LMS Period 1 suburban stock...

 

How far EH Lemon was personally responsible for the design is an interesting question - given an interesting oddball high -profile job like this, he may well have taken a personal interest and given the draughtsmen the key parameters from which to produce detailed drawings

 

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