Hornby 2021 - SR Bogie Luggage van

[KeithMacdonald]

11 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

My Triang model was in Rail Blue ! - 'orrible it was.

 

Was that the one with doors that could be opened? To an eight-year old that was quite an exciting feature. Running your own parcels service with the green platform trolleys trundling up & down the platform.

[Tony Cane]

55 minutes ago, KDG said:

Tony, do you know what the preferred traction was for these ambulance trains? They consisted of 2 brake coaches, 9 bogie luggage vans, plus dining car.

I have no details of the motive power used to pull any of the CET's. Apart from needing steam heat there were no special requirements, and the trains were stabled in various sidings, so allocation of a specific locomotive to a train would not be good use of available motive power.

[The Johnster]

6 hours ago, Combe Martin said:

 

I have even seen a photo of one on the Somerset & Dorset leaving Evercreech Junction at the head of what's probably a 'branch' train being hauled by a 3F.

Probably heading for Clarks' shoes at Street, often dispatched by rail in bogie parcels vehicles.

[phil_sutters]

36 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Probably heading for Clarks' shoes at Street, often dispatched by rail in bogie parcels vehicles.

That may well account for the frequency of one or more parcels vans forming half the vehicles in latter day passenger services, as can be seen in Dad's photos. Some of Bason Bridge's dairy products may also have travelled that way, although some went out with the milk tankers in their trains.

[Combe Martin]

15 hours ago, Combe Martin said:

These were sometimes referred to as a 'Corridor PMV'.  I've seen colour pictures of both crimson and green ones at the head of the Golden Arrow.  I think they always used the same one.  The green one had the droplight windows on the centre doors.  I havn't got access to my Gould book at the moment, but recall that he felt very few were repainted BR green, and a quoted few numbers (no more than 6) and said there were no repainting records kept so couldn't be sure (something like that).

 

I have even seen a photo of one on the Somerset & Dorset leaving Evercreech Junction at the head of what's probably a 'branch' train being hauled by a 3F.

.   

 

Further to my post above, the photo is dated 1956 and is on page  65 of  'Celebration of the Somerset & Dorset Railway' by Alan Hammond.

Edited January 8, 2021 by Combe Martin

[BMacdermott]

Hello Peter

 

Hope you are well.

 

Presumably, the CorrPMV is not the only vehicle (as it did not have Guard facilities).

 

Brian

[Dunsignalling]

14 hours ago, KDG said:

Tony, do you know what the preferred traction was for these ambulance trains? They consisted of 2 brake coaches, 9 bogie luggage vans, plus dining car.

 

14 hours ago, Tony Cane said:

While the Casualty evacuation trains, that used these vans, remained in the owners livery, there were at least 35 of these vans that were part of military ambulance trains. These would have been painted in the green specified for these trains. A check against the register in Gould's Southern Railway Passenger Vans shows that, where the SR van number is known, they returned to normal use in the UK and were withdrawn from 1959 onwards.  What is not known is when these were converted from ambulance ward cars back to luggage vans.

This may not have been done immediately, so may not have been repainted in malachite, but went straight into BR livery. However these must be the most likely candidates for late Southern livery.

I'd interpret these two posts as implying that "at least 35", probably means 36.

 

Question 1: Were these vans used concurrently in both categories of train, or was one formed from the other as the war progressed?

 

Question 2: Did both the specifications issued require the addition of the droplights, and to all vans?

 

Another post (way back; I really miss them being numbered))  stated there were 17 of one diagram so fitted and 16 of the other. That doesn't even come to 36 and (if correct) would imply that some  without droplights were used in these trains.

 

Can either (or both) of you guys shed any light?

 

John

[KDG]

15 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

I'd interpret these two posts as implying that "at least 35", probably means 36.

 

Question 1: Were these vans used concurrently in both categories of train, or was one formed from the other as the war progressed?

 

Question 2: Did both the specifications issued require the addition of the droplights, and to all vans?

 

Another post (way back; I really miss them being numbered))  stated there were 17 of one diagram so fitted and 16 of the other. That doesn't even come to 36 and (if correct) would imply that some  without droplights were used in these trains.

 

Can either (or both) of you guys shed any light?

 

John

Hi John

 

I've only this week started researching WW2 ambulance trains so I'm no expert, but the following sites are where I gleaned the above:-

www.qaranc.co.uk

www.roll-of-honour.com

 

Seems there were 34 ambulance trains put together in 1938, to deal with victims of terror bombing of Britain's cities. They were altered in 1939 just before war started and were never really needed en masse as first thought. The SR trains had initially 10 bogie luggage vans as ward cars, but later one was swapped for more staff accommodation. The doctors, nurses and orderlies lived on the train when in use and required more comforts than first thought of due to the arduous nature of the work.  The GWR trains used converted Syphon wagons as the ward cars.

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by KDG
Smelling pistake

[GreenGiraffe22]

I was really hoping for some ambulance liveried carriages when the RTR market had a bit of WW2 fever a year or so ago with warwells etc 

[KDG]

2 minutes ago, GreenGiraffe22 said:

I was really hoping for some ambulance liveried carriages when the RTR market had a bit of WW2 fever a year or so ago with warwells etc 

My understanding is that these ambulance trains, fixed formations, intended for service in Britain, were left in company colours, with addition of Red Cross markings on every vehicle. Military hospital trains, different beasts, were painted army green. Evacuation trains e.g. fetching troops from UK channel ports post Dunkirk, were cobbled together from available service stock.

 

It should be reasonably simple to put together a realistic sort of train from existing RTR stock without too much repainting.

 

Hope this helps

[Wickham Green too]

Having re-read Gould and King, I can confirm that there were three Evacuation Trains originally containing ten GBLs each - one van in each was later replaced with a Saloon. Seven GBLs were used as Ambulance Coaches later in the war and - comparing lists in Gould and King - two of those had already been in Evacuation Trains ( presumably two of the three removed ). King discusses both Evacuation and Ambulance uses in the same paragraph before saying "When returned, many of these had received droplights in the centre pair of doors" - implying that applied to both conversions ............ that may be the case BUT, while ALL the Ambulance conversions received droplights only six of the other Evacuation Cars did - together with twenty that had been neither Evacuation NOR Ambulance Cars ! ..................... yes, I'm as confused as you are - especially as King says the vans ( presumably he actually ONLY means the Ambulance ones ) "had received droplights" "when returned" whereas Gould says that "in 1945, droplights were fitted" : I surmise that the Ambulance Cars WERE fitted with droplights for that purpose ( from 1943 ) and that the Southern considered that to be a good idea - which they spread to other vans at random in 1945.

Neither author mentions livery between the original 1930/1 ( Maunsell ) green and first application of  'crimson lake' in 1949 - actually King's text rather follows Gould's of ten years earlier - but the absence of any mention of malachite doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[Tony Cane]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

I'd interpret these two posts as implying that "at least 35", probably means 36.

 

Question 1: Were these vans used concurrently in both categories of train, or was one formed from the other as the war progressed?

 

Question 2: Did both the specifications issued require the addition of the droplights, and to all vans?

 

Another post (way back; I really miss them being numbered))  stated there were 17 of one diagram so fitted and 16 of the other. That doesn't even come to 36 and (if correct) would imply that some  without droplights were used in these trains.

 

Can either (or both) of you guys shed any light?

 

John

Here is what I know from the sources I have, as listed below

 

Gould, Southern Railway Passenger Vans

King, An Illustrated history of Southern Coaches

Diagram sheets of ambulance trains 36 and 37 from the NRM

Various notes and information from the late Hugh Foster (who was researching American ambulance trains) much of this directly from the Ambulance Train Committee minutes held at the PRO Kew

 

 

Gould lists the numbers of 27 vans used in Casualty evacuation Trains (CET) No’s 32 to 34. There is also a list of 7 other vans known to be part of military ambulance trains.  Cross checking the two lists shows there is only one vehicle in both lists. The second list shows that the vans were use in five different ambulance trains and the diagram for train 37 confirms that this also used these vans.

 

King list the van numbers that were to diagrams 3096 and 3097 which had the widows in the doors.

Cross checking shows that 6 of those used in ambulance trains had this modification. The exception was the van previously used in a CET and later use in train 47.

 

The diagram sheets of the ambulance trains 36 and 37 are quite detailed, the different length of vans (51ft 3in or 53ft 3in) is noted and shows the location of any windows present. None of the three diagrams for the ward cars, which use these vans, shows any windows in the centre doors.

However from the data above two of the vans in train 36 did have the windows added. Trains 36 and 37 were used by the American forces.

 

Gould say that the windows were fitted in 1945, which is after the date that trains 38 and 37 were built, and some were not returned to the southern until 1947. King says that they were part of the conversion to ambulance trains.

 

Speculation and asides

 

It is possible the Gould gives a date of 1945 for the additions of the windows as that is when the diagrams would have been created.

It is known that due to “customers” complaints the officers ward car in ambulance trains used by the Americans had extra windows added.

 

From the above it seems that the addition of the windows occurred while in ambulance train use, but not to all the vans used as this would result in more diagram 3096 and 3097 vans be present, presuming the list in King is complete.

 

One detail that I had forgotten about CETs is that in 1944 a repainted banana van was added for storage of linen and other supplies. The choice of vehicle being, probably, because it was passenger rated and had steam heating pipes.

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Having re-read Gould and King, I can confirm that there were three Evacuation Trains originally containing ten GBLs each - one van in each was later replaced with a Saloon. Seven GBLs were used as Ambulance Coaches later in the war and - comparing lists in Gould and King - two of those had already been in Evacuation Trains ( presumably two of the three removed ). King discusses both Evacuation and Ambulance uses in the same paragraph before saying "When returned, many of these had received droplights in the centre pair of doors" - implying that applied to both conversions ............ that may be the case BUT, while ALL the Ambulance conversions received droplights only six of the other Evacuation Cars did - together with twenty that had been neither Evacuation NOR Ambulance Cars ! ..................... yes, I'm as confused as you are - especially as King says the vans ( presumably he actually ONLY means the Ambulance ones ) "had received droplights" "when returned" whereas Gould says that "in 1945, droplights were fitted" : I surmise that the Ambulance Cars WERE fitted with droplights for that purpose ( from 1943 ) and that the Southern considered that to be a good idea - which they spread to other vans at random in 1945.

Neither author mentions livery between the original 1930/1 ( Maunsell ) green and first application of  'crimson lake' in 1949 - actually King's text rather follows Gould's of ten years earlier - but the absence of any mention of malachite doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I think that's open to interpretation. i.e. "The (cars) had received droplights when returned", vs. "The (cars) received droplights when returned".

 

I'd suggest it likely that, had the SR thought it a really good idea, they would have extended it to the entire fleet but, given that they didn't remove them, they didn't think it a bad one. 

 

A very small number of these vans almost certainly did carry SR malachite (Gould and King both imply as much, though without sufficient force to indicate it was widespread). As I have posted earlier, it seems much more likely to have been applied after the war than before.

 

The thought also occurs, though that, as the Ambulance Cars were painted green, when the SR got them back, might they have just mixed up some matching paint to obliterate the markings?

 

How similar was Ambulance Car green to anything used by the SR either side of the war?

 

John

Edited January 8, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Combe Martin]

4 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

Hello Peter

 

Hope you are well.

 

Presumably, the CorrPMV is not the only vehicle (as it did not have Guard facilities).

 

Brian

 

Hello Brian,

 

Yes fine here, even though I'm in Kent  (home of the  Uk version of Covid), and supposedly the worse place in the country at the moment.  I just make sure I keep out of the way of everyone else.

 

Now to this picture.  Its got 3F 43248 at the front , then the Corr PMV (No centre droplight windows), then a 2 coach Midland suburban set, then what looks like an ex LSWR compartment 3rd strengthener coach at the end.  This is the only picture I've ever found of a Corr PMV on the S&D, and I've got loads of books.

 

Peter.    

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by Combe Martin

[Dunsignalling]

17 minutes ago, Tony Cane said:

Here is what I know from the sources I have, as listed below

 

Gould, Southern Railway Passenger Vans

King, An Illustrated history of Southern Coaches

Diagram sheets of ambulance trains 36 and 37 from the NRM

Various notes and information from the late Hugh Foster (who was researching American ambulance trains) much of this directly from the Ambulance Train Committee minutes held at the PRO Kew

 

 

Gould lists the numbers of 27 vans used in Casualty evacuation Trains (CET) No’s 32 to 34. There is also a list of 7 other vans known to be part of military ambulance trains.  Cross checking the two lists shows there is only one vehicle in both lists. The second list shows that the vans were use in five different ambulance trains and the diagram for train 37 confirms that this also used these vans.

 

King list the van numbers that were to diagrams 3096 and 3097 which had the widows in the doors.

Cross checking shows that 6 of those used in ambulance trains had this modification. The exception was the van previously used in a CET and later use in train 47.

 

The diagram sheets of the ambulance trains 36 and 37 are quite detailed, the different length of vans (51ft 3in or 53ft 3in) is noted and shows the location of any windows present. None of the three diagrams for the ward cars, which use these vans, shows any windows in the centre doors.

However from the data above two of the vans in train 36 did have the windows added. Trains 36 and 37 were used by the American forces.

 

Gould say that the windows were fitted in 1945, which is after the date that trains 38 and 37 were built, and some were not returned to the southern until 1947. King says that they were part of the conversion to ambulance trains.

 

Speculation and asides

 

It is possible the Gould gives a date of 1945 for the additions of the windows as that is when the diagrams would have been created.

It is known that due to “customers” complaints the officers ward car in ambulance trains used by the Americans had extra windows added.

 

From the above it seems that the addition of the windows occurred while in ambulance train use, but not to all the vans used as this would result in more diagram 3096 and 3097 vans be present, presuming the list in King is complete.

 

One detail that I had forgotten about CETs is that in 1944 a repainted banana van was added for storage of linen and other supplies. The choice of vehicle being, probably, because it was passenger rated and had steam heating pipes.

Thanks, that seems to settle my unease that none of the previous numbers I'd seen seemed to tally with one another. I was especially dubious because Gould, who I've always found very dependable, quoted so few vans compared to the total in military use. 

 

It being confined (at least mostly) to vehicles used by American officers makes everything fit much more neatly.  Perhaps it was intended to save them needing to take off their sunglasses. 

 

Sorry, I've been watching too many Hollywood war movies....  

 

John

Edited January 8, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Tony Cane]

54 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

How similar was Ambulance Car green to anything used by the SR either side of the war?

The only colour images I know of of WWII ambulance trains are these two.

They are just post WWII and the colour will be affected by weathering and the photographic process.

The inside edge of the open door on the close up picture perhaps gives a better indication of the original colour.

There is an example panel in the records of the ambulance train committee at PRO Kew that shows the colours  that were intended to be used.

[Tony Cane]

A small correction to my earlier post.

Southern Way issue 42 has an article on ambulance trains. This states that the ward cars of   CET train 33 were used in ambulance train 47. A more careful check of the information in Gould shows that van No 2468 was in CET 33 and is then listed as used in train 47, and had the centre door window modification. The other van from CET33 (No 2369) is not in the list of vans having this conversion.

Train 47 was used by the Americans, and this seems to confirm that only some of the vans in a given train were converted.

[Islesy]

Hello @Tony Cane good to see you on this thread! I came across your name as I compiled information on the Casualty Evacuation Trains, so it's a small world!

Mike King is a good friend of mine, and was, as ever, a massive help during the research on the GBLs. I had hoped that there would be scope for Hornby to produce versions of the GBLs used in the CETs, but whether that ever transpires is anyone's guess now.

I have copies of the PRO files on the trains, and there was some interesting information on the Queen Alexandra's Nursing Corps website, which I believe you also contributed to?

Here is my collection of notes on the subject, which you'll see you cropped up in, for the benefit of those interested in the subject.

 

CASUALTY EVACUATION TRAINS.
HC Deb 07 December 1939 vol 355 c796 796
§71. Sir A. Knox asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that 32 trains, each with eight officials of the St. John Ambulance Association, are at present standing idle; what is the weekly cost of these officials; and why the train and the personnel could not be assembled quickly in case of an emergency?
§Mr. Elliot The casualty evacuation trains, which, owing to the course the war has taken, have happily not been used to a great extent, have hitherto numbered 28, apart from two in Scotland. They are now being reduced to 18. The weekly cost of the orderlies averages about £26 per train. The mobility of the trains and the need for keeping them and their equipment in constant readiness for immediate service, if required, makes it necessary to keep trains and staff continually in commission.

Administrative Memorandum No. 93 relating to Hospital Trains operating in the United Kingdom, dated 17 June 1944 , was distributed by the Office of the Chief Surgeon, ETOUSA, APO 871.

The following Hospital Trains being used in the United Kingdom had following patient carrying capacities:

            BUNKS    LITTERS    AMBULATORY    PADDED
Hospital Train No. 31        252    64        1
Hospital Train No. 33        231    64        1

US litters were to be used, if possible, for the evacuation of litter patients on Hospital Trains No. 17 – 27 – 31 – 33 – and 36

 

British-built Hospital Trains:
Hospital Trains furnished from British sources were of two distinct types: the bunk type and the litter type, and consisted of 14 cars, half of which were ward cards. Both were constructed of similar equipment. All cars were of the uniformed un-reinforced wooden material in normal use by all major British Railways. Ward cars were built from baggage cars, personnel cars were obtained from slightly modified first class sleepers, ambulatory patient cars came unchanged from passenger wagons, as did the kitchen-diner cars. Without exception, these trains proved to be the most unsatisfactory of any Hospital Trains in use, even though the five bunk-type car was considerably better than the litter-type car. The primary objection was the lack of protection afforded the patients and personnel in case of accident. Another major factor was the lack of heating or ventilating systems for the patients’ cars (only source of heat was a double two-inch steam line –ed), the bunk-type cars did have a small fin-type radiator affording only minimal heat. Furthermore, there was no heating in the lavatories, no heating of the water pipes, and the ward cars had no windows since they were based on baggage cars. Sanitary facilities were primitive and privacy only consisted of a curtain. A chemical toilet was the only fixture (bedpans and urinals had to be emptied into it by hand –ed). The only source of hot water was a gasoline burner with a small overhead cold water tank. Lighting was insufficient and based on a storage-battery which had to be kept charged by the train axle-operated generator. Hard unadjustable bucket seats were most uncomfortable for the ambulatory patients, and the litter patients had extremely rough journeys lying on stretchers without any cushioning or padding (only the bunk-type cars had beds with springs –ed). Although demoded and really unsuitable, they were the only available means of conveyance at the time.

 

Red Cross Ambulance Train No 32 

The photos of the Red Cross Ambulance Train below and at the top of this page are from the collection of Mary Vida Essberger, (nee Smith) who was a trained Red Cross nurse in 1939 and served on and trained on Red Cross Ambulance Train No 32, which was based in London, possibly South London and was due to be despatched to France but never went. Sister Smith was struck down with pneumonia and had to resign from the Red Cross and later worked as a PA to Sir William Rootes for most of the war, in central London. 

Her son still has more pictures of her and the rest of the nurses and civilians and doctors that made up the Train's detachment. The sister on the train was Sister Wallace, who had nursed King Edward VIII when he was ill and when he was Prince of Wales. 

 

The following has been received from Tony Cane of the World War Two Railway Study Group whose website is www.saxoncourtbooks.co.uk/ww2rsg/ 

Ambulance train 32 was one of 34 Casualty Evacuation Trains (CET) that were converted from existing coaches. The requirements for these were made in 1938 but they were not actually built until mid 1939. Each had originally two brake coaches, as shown in the picture on your site and 10 ward cars. The brake coaches were converted to provide accommodation for staff, and storage of medical equipment, and then stored for later use. The ward cars were standard luggage vans, and after being fitted with brackets for rapid conversion to part of an ambulance train, were put back into normal service. Later a restaurant car replaced one of the ward cars. 

The authorities assumed that any bombing of our cites would produce such large numbers of casualties that the local facilities would be overwhelmed. This thankfully did prove to be an overestimate of capabilities of aerial bombing, but they were still put to good use in other rolls. They were used to clear the hospitals in threatened areas, moving patients out of the cities to more rural areas. Those moved to the South Coast had to be moved again when France fell.

Train 32 was one of four built by the Southern Railway. There are pictures of its sister train No 33 in two articles published in the railway press soon after they were built. These also have drawings of how the conversion was made and a list of equipment supplied. For example I can tell you that this included 20 teaspoons!

 

There is also a good general history of the CET trains in the book Hospital Ships and Ambulance Trains by John Plumridge which also has pictures of train No 33. Train 32 was stored initially near Streatham Common. The only other information I have specifically about train No32 is that it moved 163 patients from Brighton to Macclesfield in September 1940. 

 

The war journal of Joyce's War - The Second World War Journal of a Queen Alexandra Nurse includes chapters about her time on ambulance trains in India. 

The Queen Alexandra's Royal Army Nursing Corps (QARANC)

 

Article from "Modern Transport" of November 4th 1939. 
Formations of the trains were as follows:-
CET 32 SECR BCK 6628, SR Maunsell unclassed saloon 7794 (later replaced by LSWR restaurant car 7835), vans 2358/70/66/59/60/63, 2466/80/61, SECR BCK 6630. Allocated Eardley Road (Streatham).
CET 33 SECR BCK 6626, SR Maunsell unclassed saloon 7910 (later replaced by LSWR restaurant car 7836), vans 2356, 2464/77//69//75, 2369/67, 2468/72, SECR BCK 6635. Allocated Sevenoaks.
CET 34 SECR BCK 6629, SR Maunsell unclassed saloon 7982 (later replaced by LSWR restaurant car 7839), vans 2473/62//63/71/65, 2361/68/64/57, SECR BCK 6633. Allocated Sevenoaks.

 

@Tony Cane If you pass your email address on to me by PM, I'll send over copies of the PRO files I photographed - it would be a shame to see that information go to waste.

 

Best wishes,

Paul.

Edited January 8, 2021 by Islesy

[Dunsignalling]

6 hours ago, Tony Cane said:

The only colour images I know of of WWII ambulance trains are these two.

They are just post WWII and the colour will be affected by weathering and the photographic process.

The inside edge of the open door on the close up picture perhaps gives a better indication of the original colour.

There is an example panel in the records of the ambulance train committee at PRO Kew that shows the colours  that were intended to be used.

Initial post deleted in light of subsequent info from others.

 

EDIT: the photo in the post from Islesy shows that the SR trains were not repainted into Army green (too shiny).

 

Therefore no question of post-war repaints from Military colours being necessary.

 

John

 

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Islesy]

Tony mentioned the paint files in the PRO records at Kew, which are illustrated below.

I've also included a summary of those vehicles in used in the CETs where I could cross-reference the information.

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by Islesy
Added Information

[Tony Cane]

23 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

EDIT: the photo in the next post from Islesy suggests that particular train was not repainted into Army green (too shiny) and, if that were the case with all the SR trains, the post-war story becomes much simpler

All of the Casualty evacuation trains remained in the livery of the owning company. the vans were identified by a yellow stripe on the body corners. The train number was applied to the brake coaches at each end as show in a previous post. Other markings varied according the owning company. The GWR put the letter code for each van on the outside of the vehicle. The SR and LNER seem to have put this on the inside of the doors.

 

finally an apology for further duff information, I must be going blind in my old age.

Van 2369 did have the windows fitted to the doors, as confirmed by a more careful read of the list in King and in the data in the post by Islesy.

[The Johnster]

I think that's the nearest we'll get to chapter and verse, and the safe option for me for a GLV at Cwmdimbath in the 50s is crimson livery.  It woud seem that the majority of the GLV fleet was used in ambulance service and would have been in the dark green military livery at the introduction of crimson in June 1948, and that some may well have retained the livery into the early 50s, but in general parcels service with the bunks and stretcher brackets removed, and presumably with the  hanging foldup shelves replaced (if they were ever removed).  In addition, there is a possibility that some that had not been converted for ambulance train use were still in pre-war Maunsell olive green, and it is probable that one or two of these were repainted during the pre-nationalisation Bullied sunshine period, in either olive to use up stocks of paint or malachite, but in any case with sunshile lettering.  There is also a possibilty that one or two were painted in either olive or malachite in  the first 6 months of 1948, with sunshine or possibly BR Gill Sans BR lettering.

 

That's too much of a minefield for me, and then you have to consider that not all of them would have had the centre door droplighit modification, only the ambulances, and that doors may have been swapped in workshops.  I'll go with crimson and trust Hornby's  reseearch that this is correct; the centre door droplights will make a further difference from my Roxeyfied Triang, which I am now in some doubt about;  the Roxey instructions do not specify the centre door droplight status of vans in BR crimson livery, so I  will renumber it as the Triang 'maroon' crimson version and hope that Margate got their research right back in the 50s... 

 

By and large they seem to have, which probably specifies their prototype as not having centre door windows.  If nothing else, this thread has been highly informative and I know a lot more  about GLVs than I did, and it is a reminder that few things are straightforward when it comes to railway vehicles that get modified over time!

Edited January 8, 2021 by The Johnster

[Butler Henderson]

On 07/01/2021 at 09:30, JohnR said:

 

Not got my copy of Gould's Southern Passenger Vans to hand, but I'm sure in there he states that literally only a handful of GBL vans managed to get a repaint into BR(S) Green, and that the vast majority ended their lives in BR Crimson. 

Yes, quotes 2351 so repainted  in Aug 56, 2302 (date of repaint unknown) and 2318 in Jan 59; none of which are listed later being stencilled for pigeon traffic use. 

[Butler Henderson]

Also S2286S is photoed in Cheona Pub. Rlys in Profile No.6 BR Non Passenger Rolling Stock stated as being green. Withdrawn in 1959 it survived until 1968 as DS70036. Gould notes those whic went into departmental use has their gangways removed and the former 2462 is shown s altered in Rlys in Profile No.8 BR Engineers Stock - 2 as ADS70141 in Olive Drab, a Staff and Tool Van that lasted to 1980 and was then sold to the Bluebell. Wonder if Hornby have allowed for this option.

[hmrspaul]

 

DS70141 https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/srdepartmentalstock/e1b8f39b   https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/srdepartmentalstock/e1cf24284