Hornby 2021 - SR Bogie Luggage van

[JohnR]

1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

Until 1961.......Set 381 I think it was?

P

Thats a pull-push set converted from Ironclads. I was talking about the ex-LSWR rebuilt coaches as modelled by Hornby. 

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, JohnR said:

Thats a pull-push set converted from Ironclads. I was talking about the ex-LSWR rebuilt coaches as modelled by Hornby. 

There's a published photo of a Sidmouth branch set formed of a lavatory brake third (though not the one modelled by Hornby) and a crimson/cream Maunsell BCK. As I can't tell the difference between Diagrams 97 and 98 without looking it up, I haven't hesitated to add one to my roster. IIRC it's only the position and/or number of toilets, so I'm OK with it. You might not be!

 

The photo is dated 1957 and the train is hauled by a Standard 3MT tank. I think the BCK had replaced a 56' LSWR lavatory brake composite, a type that was being withdrawn in the mid-1950s.

 

John

 

 

[JohnR]

3 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

There's a published photo of a Sidmouth branch set formed of a lavatory brake third (though not the one modelled by Hornby) and a crimson/cream Maunsell BCK. As I can't tell the difference between Diagrams 97 and 98 without looking it up, I haven't hesitated to add one to my roster. IIRC it's only the position and/or number of toilets, so I'm OK with it. You might not be!

 

The photo is dated 1957 and the train is hauled by a Standard 3MT tank. I think the BCK had replaced a 56' LSWR lavatory brake composite, a type that was being withdrawn in the mid-1950s.

 

John

 

 

 

From about 0:43 we see a 3MT hauling a pair of coaches in green, who look like the ex-LSWR rebuilds, but I cant be certain of what diagram. 

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

5 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

There's a published photo of a Sidmouth branch set formed of a lavatory brake third (though not the one modelled by Hornby) and a crimson/cream Maunsell BCK. As I can't tell the difference between Diagrams 97 and 98 without looking it up, I haven't hesitated to add one to my roster. IIRC it's only the position and/or number of toilets, so I'm OK with it. You might not be! 

 

The photo is dated 1957 and the train is hauled by a Standard 3MT tank. I think the BCK had replaced a 56' LSWR lavatory brake composite, a type that was being withdrawn in the mid-1950s.

 

John

 

Edit: the photo is B&W so I can't say for certain whether the coach is crimson or green, but my guess is crimson as the amount of varnish on a green one by then should have darkened it substantially.

 

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

13 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

From about 0:43 we see a 3MT hauling a pair of coaches in green, who look like the ex-LSWR rebuilds, but I cant be certain of what diagram. 

 

 

That looks like the BT + BCL pairing as included in the Lyme Regis pack (but green). These stayed together until withdrawal AFAIK, unlike the mixed 2-sets described in my earlier post, which incidentally seems to have been duplicated when I edited it!

 

Bear in mind though, that withdrawal of these coaches commenced in 1955 and they were largely extinct by the end of 1958 except for a few loose vehicles running in the London area, so much will depend on the year you wish to portray.

 

John

Edited April 25, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[JohnR]

39 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

That looks like the BT + BCL pairing as included in the Lyme Regis pack (but green). These stayed together until withdrawal AFAIK, unlike the mixed 2-sets described in my earlier post, which incidentally seems to have been duplicated when I edited it!

 

Bear in mind though, that withdrawal of these coaches commenced in 1955 and they were largely extinct by the end of 1958 except for a few loose vehicles running in the London area, so much will depend on the year you wish to portray.

 

John

 

I can live with that - just want Hornby to produce one!

[Wickham Green too]

On 11/04/2021 at 10:59, bude_branch said:

Although only a few were actually painted in BR(S) green, if I recall correctly, a number of SR green vans were re-varnished and received BR lettering, which resulted in a similar shade of green to that used by both BR and Hornby.

Yes - BUT the "SR green" vans that were re-varnished and received BR lettering weren't the same green as the "SR green" that Hornby are producing .............. anything still in Maunsell ( olive / sage / etc.etc. ) green that received post-war attention would have got a malachite repaint rather than yet another revarnishing ( which would have made it look FAR darker than BR green ................... under the dirt ). 

[Combe Martin]

See above ... surely after the war the vast majority were repainted BR crimson, then late on a few were repainted BR green, that's what the Gould book suggests, and he lists the numbers of about 3.  I havn't got it with me at the moment but I don't recall him saying any stayed in re-varnished SR green (though as I havn't got it with me I'll stand to be corrected).  Didn't the re-varnishing of SR green vans apply to the long wheel base 4 wheel vans ?  

Mike King in his book says the GBLs (or Corridor PMVs) were often kept cleaner than other vans because they often ran in in passenger trains.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Combe Martin

[Combe Martin]

In addition to all the above, anyone contemplating re-painting/re-numbering one of these should remember that there were 5 different diagrams, covering 2 body lengths and for the short ones there were 2 different bogie positions, then within that both lengths had some fitted with droplight windows in the centre doors. 

 

Both the Gould and King books have details of the number ranges for each diagram. 

[Nick C]

2 hours ago, Combe Martin said:

Didn't the re-varnishing of SR green vans apply to the long wheel base 4 wheel vans ? 

I think it applied to almost everything, except front-line passenger stock. We're talking about an era of rationing and shortages, so the longer the could keep stock gonig between repaints, the better. 

 

There's a clear photo in Michael Welch's "Southern Coaches in Colour" of a pair of the rebuilds (a D98 and D285) at Evercreech Junction, in BR green in 1958 - except when you look closely, it isn't, it's revarnished Malachite. Two things give it away - first the tatty nature of the paintwork, which would be in much better condition if they'd been freshly painted less than two years previously, and secondly the "Load 1 Ton" under the brake door, still in the curly SR lettering.

[Wickham Green too]

11 minutes ago, Nick C said:

I think it applied to almost everything, except front-line passenger stock. ...........

I think it applied to everything including front-line passenger stock ........... malachite was said to be a particularly resilient paint - though that's not down to the pigments, of course !

[Dunsignalling]

19 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

I think it applied to everything including front-line passenger stock ........... malachite was said to be a particularly resilient paint - though that's not down to the pigments, of course !

Also, of course, any BR-built Bulleid stock outshopped prior to the adoption of crimson and cream would have been malachite, plus any vehicles required to complete malachite sets for a short while afterwards.

 

AIUI, quite a lot of Bulleid stock went straight from SR green to BR green post-1956, having never received the early BR colours. 

 

John

[Wickham Green too]

24 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

........ plus any vehicles required to complete malachite sets for a short while afterwards. .......

..... though they weren't as tidy with their sets as you'd expect  -  so mixed malachite + Maunsell green or malachite + red & cream sets weren't unknown.

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

..... though they weren't as tidy with their sets as you'd expect  -  so mixed malachite + Maunsell green or malachite + red & cream sets weren't unknown.

In the case of Bulleid stock, these were quite often the "seasonal" 5-sets that ran with only 3 coaches in winter.

 

Although the same pair of loose seconds was generally allocated each summer, their paint dates were not necessarily synchronised with the rest. 

 

Later on, once the designated Seasonal sets had been made permanent, more seemed to spring up, formed of Bulleid 3-sets with Mk1 seconds or vice versa, again in alternating liveries. 

 

The through portion from Waterloo to Lyme Regis often seemed to be one of these. Quite flashy! 

 

John

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

4 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

 

Also, of course, any BR-built Bulleid stock outshopped prior to the adoption of crimson and cream would have been malachite, plus any vehicles required to complete malachite sets for a short while afterwards.

Stock outshopped between 1/1/48 and 31/5/48, both new build and overhauled repainted, would have in theory been in Bullied malachite green livery, and with ‘Sunshine’ lettering with S prefixed numbers but no indication of ownership if outshopped in the first two weeks of January, after which the BR standard Gill Sans lettering was used.  From 1/6/48, the standard liveries having been decided on, gangwayed passenger stock was painted in crimson/cream, and non-gangwayed & NPCCS in plain crimson.  Some BGs were painted in crimson/cream on the other regions, but not TTBOM(inexpert)K on the Southern, which didn’t have any such vehicles. 
 

That’s the theory, but as has been rightly said, early 1948 and a few years following were austerity years, and among the most severe of them; worse than during the war as many products including paint and varnish, were prioritised for export to address the dire post-war balance of payments situation.  The UK was broke, and heavily in debt to the Americans, after the lease lend deal.  Unfitted wooden wagons were unpainted, as were replacement planks, the exact shade of colours mixed in individual paint shops was variable, as was it’s quality. Mistakes and anomalous liveries showed up now and then, and once in service remained in that condition until the next overhaul was due. 
 

As this applies to the livery of the gangwayed luggage vans, given the different diagrams and the alterations to those used for ambulance, clearly the answer is to work from photographs, which for this period are thin on the ground, especially colour photos.  Not what anyone who wants to model a specific livery or a specific vehicle wants to hear.  My policy is, in the absence of provenanced evidence, is to make a best guess and be prepared to correct it if better information comes to light later.  
 

RTR research is not always correct but is much better than it was; it is reasonable to assume that the Hornby GLVs, which at least now have the correct bogies(!), are accurate for the liveries they are presented in.  This is fine by me, as my period allows BR crimson or Southern Railway liveried versions, on an early BR South Wales layout. 

 

[Combe Martin]

On 26/04/2021 at 08:56, Combe Martin said:

In addition to all the above, anyone contemplating re-painting/re-numbering one of these should remember that there were 5 different diagrams, covering 2 body lengths and for the short ones there were 2 different bogie positions, then within that both lengths had some fitted with droplight windows in the centre doors. 

 

Both the Gould and King books have details of the number ranges for each diagram. 

 

Continuing my previous posts (as above) about livery details of the GBL van as produced by Hornby and possible repainting/renumbering .........

 

It very much depends upon your modelling period and how accurate you like to be.  The GBL as modelled by Hornby is the longer one (length 53ft 3 inches) ie Diagrams 3097 (with droplights) and 3099 (without).  I believe the Gould book suggests that in total he only new of 3 that were repainted in BR(S) green (a previous post by another contributor thought it might  be 6 .  Now again from memory back to when I was Roxleyfying my old Triang GBL and wanting a green one, I think I came to the conclusion that I only had a choice of 0 to renumber it as (ie none of the green ones were the long version, I stand to be corrected though).  As one of the BR green ones was used on the  Golden Arrow (though I dont know whether it was a long one or a short one) my conclusion was that with working on the western section and occasionally venturing up the Somerset & Dorset line,

mine needed to be crimson, have no droplights, and be one of the last to be withdrawn.      

 

Edited May 2, 2021 by Combe Martin

[chris45lsw]

381 is on the Seaton branch (not Sidmouth), at Seaton Junc to be precise.  Indeed I travelled in it to Seaton in 1961 as well as 384 to Lymington.

 

Chris KT

[chris45lsw]

The green 2-LAV set at the end of the video clip is indeed one of the 'Hornby' sets, 42-46 (Diagram 99 & 418).  It will be in re-varnished malachite but with BR numbering.  Diag. 98 BTLs (as per Hornby) had 6 compartments and 2 lavatory positions while Diag. 97 BTLs had 7 compts and 1 lavatory.

 

Chris KT

[Wickham Green too]

In case anyone's still interested in Hornby luggage vans - sorry Chris - my payment's just been taken ..........

[Jack P]

13 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

In case anyone's still interested in Hornby luggage vans - sorry Chris - my payment's just been taken ..........

 

From Hornby direct? I've got mine on order with Kernow, looking forward to these. 

[Wickham Green too]

3 hours ago, Jack P said:

 

From Hornby direct? I've got mine on order with Kernow, looking forward to these. 

Nope .......... from a little place I know in the Forest of Dean !

[SRyan]

All versions showing as in stock on the Kernow website now, looking forward to receiving one soon!

[wainwright1]

Got one of each livery yesterday. Not had a proper scrutiny  of them yet, but they good look in the boxes.

 

Ray

[Coach bogie]

Picked one up from Peter's Spares on my way home from work. Good to be able to go back into a model shop again!

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Butler Henderson]

Gaugemaster have the SR and BR crimson available at £33.50 with post free option and equally have listed them on ebay at the same post free price and where currently if you have a linked nectar card there are 4x points.