Hornby 2021 - SR Bogie Luggage van

[dibber25]

49 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

People do like a train to look all-of-a-piece. And the real railway was not above doing this, too. Do I not recall a story about a WR van being purloined to match the pullmans in the latter days of the Bournemouth Belle?

Certainly was! ....and at a time when a chocolate and cream one on the Western Region was already becoming a rare sight! I have a feeling that S2464 was particularly selected for Churchill's funeral as being a gangway vehicle to allow the Guard of Honour to be changed during the journey. Otherwise, presumably, the Edith Cavell van could have been used. Handborough, the day after, with the 'staging' that enabled the coffin to be easily withdrawn from the van, still in place. A crossover was installed to give the train direct access to the up platform from the down line, and a white post marked where the cab of the loco had to be when it stopped. The white post is almost certainly hidden by the chap standing on the down platform. (CJL)

Edited May 2, 2021 by dibber25
to correct spelling

[SRman]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

People do like a train to look all-of-a-piece. And the real railway was not above doing this, too. Do I not recall a story about a WR van being purloined to match the pullmans in the latter days of the Bournemouth Belle?

Not just one van: two WR chocolate and cream BGs mysteriously found themselves on Bournemouth Belle duties for a while, until the WR realised what had happened and wanted them back.

[Wickham Green too]

13 hours ago, cctransuk said:

The wheel type is MANSELL - nothing to do with Maunsell.

Well ................... not exactly nothing : Richard Maunsell of the SECR & SR was a direct successor to Richard Mansell of the SER ................ with only a couple of Wainwrights in between !

[Wickham Green too]

19 hours ago, Graham_Muz said:

 

As I stated in my review above, 16 of the D.3099 became D.3097 with the drop light fitted centre doors.

...... and that includes No.2362 so Hornby's R60020 is only suitable for the pre-war period. ( I don't think this has been mentioned before.)

[Steamport Southport]

9 hours ago, autocoach said:

I remember seeing the Churchill funeral van on exhibit at Universal Studio in LA in the 1980's.

 

I think that was some of the coaches from the 1969 Flying Scotsman Tour. ISTR two of the Pullmans used in the funeral train were definitely there.

 

Pullman Cars Lydia and Isle Of Thanet.

 

 

The rest of FS's train was

 

1 BR Mark One BCK E21117

1 LNER steel sided BG E104E

4 LNER wooden BGs 

E70636E – Exhibition Car A
E70632E – Exhibition Car B
E70497E – Exhibition Car C
E70758E – Exhibition Car D

And obviously the Observation Car

 

Jason

Edited May 2, 2021 by Steamport Southport

[Combe Martin]

31 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

...... and that includes No.2362 so Hornby's R60020 is only suitable for the pre-war period. ( I don't think this has been mentioned before.)

 

Well that depends upon what your going to do with it.  Surely it only became a D 3097 in the wartime period, so until the droplights were fitted it was a D 3099 (which is the condition its sold as) .  So if you wanted a D3099 in Br Crimson you could buy it and re-spray and renumber it.

 

[Wickham Green too]

27 minutes ago, Combe Martin said:

 

Well that depends upon what your going to do with it.  Surely it only became a D 3097 in the wartime period, so until the droplights were fitted it was a D 3099 (which is the condition its sold as) .  So if you wanted a D3099 in Br Crimson you could buy it and re-spray and renumber it.

 

Equally you could buy an R60020A to respray ............... but this one you could use as it came out of the box for post-war ( pre-crimson ) condition. 

 

( Actually there seem to be different schools of thought concerning the date of droplight fitting : Logic would dictate that it would be for ambulance / evacuation train service - though the vehicle numbers don't tally - while Gould specifically says "in 1945" without giving ant reason.)

[The Johnster]

I reckon he'd have been quite pleased; he was something of an 'honour junkie', not that his war leadership didn't fully deserve it.  In his closing years he was something of a dillitante, and frequent visitor to Monte Carlo for the gambling, but fully capable of manipulating his image to his own ends.  Waterloo is not the only station his train could have departed from, there are others close to the river, but he was involved in the planning of his own state funeral, though the original idea for it was the Queen's, and wanted de Gaulle to be at Waterloo just to p him off.  Victoria, Canon Street, or London Bridge could just as easily have served.

 

The 'hearse van' was, AFAIK, chosen because of it's widened centre doors, a legacy of ambulance train use, and have been set aside for some time and painted in the 'Pullman' livery after withdrawal as the old man had been circling the drain for some time before going down it; there was plenty of time for such arrangements.  It was, I assume, the best condition suitable GLV of those available at the time,  There was some very fast running to make up time between Reading and Oxford, and the van gave no problems.  I was 12 when the state funeral took place, watched it live on tv, and was very moved by the crane salute in the Pool.  I had a Triang Winston Churchil, 'Ruth' Pullman, and a green GLV so ran my own tribute up in the attic.  I was even then aware that there was no guard's accommodation and the train was implausible, but hey...

 

The WR chcolate/cream BG 'borrowed' for the Bournemouth Belle was after the choc/cream named train sets had been dissolved and the van was not required on the WR for that work, but the Southern were very quick to purloin it when it happened to stray onto their territory and it was, I believe, some time before the WR realised it's van was 'missing'.  The Southern were reluctant to give it back!  There was of course nothing to prevent them painting one of their own BGs in a faux Pullman livery.

[Graham_Muz]

3 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Equally you could buy an R60020A to respray ............... but this one you could use as it came out of the box for post-war ( pre-crimson ) condition. 

 

( Actually there seem to be different schools of thought concerning the date of droplight fitting : Logic would dictate that it would be for ambulance / evacuation train service - though the vehicle numbers don't tally - while Gould specifically says "in 1945" without giving ant reason.)

The 1945 date is the date the SR allocated the alternative diagram numbers for those that had been modified during the war. 

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

.... The 'hearse van' was, AFAIK, chosen because of it's widened centre doors, ....

'fraid not ! ..... as was pointed out a few posts back the droplights were fitted into the existing doors ............. the only wider doors were those fitted to some of the Departmental conversions.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Wickham Green too

[Wickham Green too]

21 minutes ago, Graham_Muz said:

The 1945 date is the date the SR allocated the alternative diagram numbers for those that had been modified during the war. 

There still remains the question of WHY they were modified : by my reckoning of seventeen dia.3096 vans only four had been in Ambulance Trains while the sixteen dia.3097 included just three that had been in Ambulance Trains and eight that had been in Evacuation Trains ( Nos.2468 & 2474 had been in both types ! ) ................................ there's something else going on here, too !

[Dunsignalling]

39 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

'fraid not ! ..... as was pointed out a few posts back the droplights were fitted into the existing doors ............. the only wider doors were those fitted to some of the Departmental conversions.

And, if you watch the film that was made on the day, the pallbearers took the coffin on board via the left hand pair on that side.

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

The WR chcolate/cream BG 'borrowed' for the Bournemouth Belle was after the choc/cream named train sets had been dissolved and the van was not required on the WR for that work, but the Southern were very quick to purloin it when it happened to stray onto their territory and it was, I believe, some time before the WR realised it's van was 'missing'.  The Southern were reluctant to give it back!  There was of course nothing to prevent them painting one of their own BGs in a faux Pullman livery.

The chocolate and cream BG was reputed to have been in a right state when it fell into Southern hands and the reluctance to return it partly stemmed from the amount of effort expended in making it presentable!

 

The Southern didn't actually get any BGs of its own until 1963, but they weren't new and had to be repainted into green. These are a real anachronism trap for modellers, I spotted a layout photo of a green one behind an air-smoothed MN a month or two back. The last of them having been rebuilt in 1959!

 

IIRC, the Bournemouth Belle BGs were intended to enable the elimination of Pullman brakes though photos indicate that they appeared together, at least for a while. After the WR van was returned, the Belle only ever got BGs in maroon and blue/grey, AFAIK. I've never seen a photograph with a green one included.

 

John

[Combe Martin]

6 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

The Southern didn't actually get any BGs of its own until 1963, but they weren't new and had to be repainted into green. These are a real anachronism trap for modellers, I spotted a layout photo of a green one behind an air-smoothed MN a month or two back. The last of them having been rebuilt in 1959!

 

A few years back when we could still go to exhibitions, I was chatting to the nice gentleman on the Replica Railways stand (I think this was when Replica had beaten everyone else in producing a correct length BG, I think thats right) and he told me that his contact at Eastleigh works said that Eastleigh only ever painted 6 BGs in green. So they were rare.

 

[Steamport Southport]

18 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

IIRC, the Bournemouth Belle BGs were intended to enable the elimination of Pullman brakes though photos indicate that they appeared together, at least for a while. After the WR van was returned, the Belle only ever got BGs in maroon and blue/grey, AFAIK. I've never seen a photograph with a green one included.

 

John

 

Yes. It's the same with the Mark One Pullmans on the ER. They never built a brake as they expected them to use BGs. But they hung on to the old brakes for as long as they could, even though I believe they were all meant to be transferred elsewhere.

 

Bournemouth Belle with green BG here.

 

https://sremg.org.uk/misc/named_02.html

[Combe Martin]

On 01/05/2021 at 21:17, Jack P said:

Another question of behalf of a 'friend' (this time one of mine), is there any evidence of specific members of the D.3097 lot being painted malachite? 

 

If you mean 'were any painted BR (southern) green', the Gould book (mine is locked away and inaccessible at the moment), says he only knew the numbers of about 3 that were painted BR green, he lists the numbers but from memory they were 'short' ones. 

 

The only colour pictures I've seen with a green one are of the Golden Arrow which had a droplight one (D3096 or D3097, you can't tell without seeing the number) in the very late 50s.  There is also a colour picture taken at Stewarts Lane yard that shows this one in the background and its number is clearly visible but I didn't note it at the time.  I believe it was in one of the steam railway magazines that I was browsing but didn't buy. I've hunted through all of mine and I don't have it.   

Edited May 4, 2021 by Combe Martin
Further clarifications

[Dunsignalling]

Having dug out my copy of Gould, and turned to page 80, the text quotes the numbers of just three vans as definitely having received BR green livery.

 

2302 and 2318 of dia. 3100, and 2351 of dia. 3098, all of 51' 3" body length.

 

None are listed from the longer diagrams represented by the new Hornby models.

 

John

Edited May 2, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Combe Martin]

22 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Having dug out my copy of Gould, and turned to page 80, the text quotes the numbers of just three vans as definitely having received BR green livery.

 

2302 and 2318 of dia. 3100, and 2351 of dia. 3098, all of 51' 3" body length.

 

None are listed from the longer diagrams as represented by the new Hornby model.

 

John

 

Many thanks for this, I did say I was working from memory, I knew there was a 3 in there somewhere.

 

It does suggest there was at least one more though as the Golden Arrow one definitely had droplights so would have been a D 3096 or D 3097.

 

I am hoping that someone will find the Stewarts Lane picture.

 

Peter.

[Jack P]

1 hour ago, Combe Martin said:

If you mean 'were any painted BR (southern) green'

 

I actually meant were any painted Southern Malachite, from what I understand the droplight converted ones were returned to the Southern in 1945 - some of them might have been given a lick of paint, post war?

[Godfrey Glyn]

Back in April 2015 I was lucky enough to be able to visit the NRM whilst S2464S was being exhibited behind Sir Winston Churchill in the main hall and was able to take a few photos.It had been beautifully restored.

 

I picked up my three versions from Paul at Alton Model Centre on Friday; what a stunning model and many congratulations to Hornby for producing such a fantastic replica. Paul seemed to have all in stock together with plenty of Heljan 25s and 86s but seeing as I am trying to reduce my stock to the essential rather than the desirable I resisted then temptation!

I do have some more shots taken at the time so if anyone wants more just let me know.

 

all the very best

 

Godfrey 

 

[Silver Sidelines]

Having unboxed my luggage vans I have given then a run around the layout.  The body shells may be fantastic reproductions but 'mind the gap'.  Three pictures below showing the spacing between vehicles, first out of the box with Hornby couplings, then with Bachmann short straight couplings and finally with Roco  40270.  I have added a video taken in the late 1950s perhaps near Bristol.  From what has been said above about painting Mk1 BGs my rake of parcels vans would have been highly unlikely.  I do wonder about the shade of Hornby maroon?

 

Hornby ex SR luggage vans with standard Hornby couplings

 

Hornby ex SR luggage vans with Bachmann short straight couplings

 

Hornby ex SR luggage vans with Roco 40270 couplings

 

 

 

 

[Ruffnut Thorston]

4 hours ago, Combe Martin said:

 

A few years back when we could still go to exhibitions, I was chatting to the nice gentleman on the Replica Railways stand (I think this was when Replica had beaten everyone else in producing a correct length BG, I think thats right) and he told me that his contact at Eastleigh works said that Eastleigh only ever painted 6 BGs in green. So they were rare.

 

Funnily enough, because Hornby Dublo made their 1961 Super Detail Mk1 coaches too short, their BG was in fact very close to scale length.

 

The accepted practice with models was to make all the Mk 1 coaches to the same length.

 

Tri-ang  Railways chose to make theirs to the scale length of the coaches, making the BG over length. Lima did the same...

 

So, yes, the Replica BG was the first modern plastic bodied model of the correct length.

 

Models presented as later versions also omitted the roof mounted periscopes from the Guards Office!

[Dunsignalling]

12 hours ago, Ruffnut Thorston said:

Funnily enough, because Hornby Dublo made their 1961 Super Detail Mk1 coaches too short, their BG was in fact very close to scale length.

 

The accepted practice with models was to make all the Mk 1 coaches to the same length.

 

Tri-ang  Railways chose to make theirs to the scale length of the coaches, making the BG over length. Lima did the same...

 

 

All done to save the effort and expense of making two different underframes.

 

Same reason Hornby's recent/current range of LMS corridor coaches has a 60' gap in which a composite would fit rather nicely, though they did go to the trouble of making a correct 50' BG.....

 

John

[cctransuk]

13 hours ago, Silver Sidelines said:

I do wonder about the shade of Hornby maroon?

 

That's not maroon - its carmine / crimson / blood, as in the early blood & custard livery.

 

NPCCS at that time were painted plain carmine / ................. .

 

John Isherwood.

[SRman]

19 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

The chocolate and cream BG was reputed to have been in a right state when it fell into Southern hands and the reluctance to return it partly stemmed from the amount of effort expended in making it presentable!

 

The Southern didn't actually get any BGs of its own until 1963, but they weren't new and had to be repainted into green. These are a real anachronism trap for modellers, I spotted a layout photo of a green one behind an air-smoothed MN a month or two back. The last of them having been rebuilt in 1959!

 

IIRC, the Bournemouth Belle BGs were intended to enable the elimination of Pullman brakes though photos indicate that they appeared together, at least for a while. After the WR van was returned, the Belle only ever got BGs in maroon and blue/grey, AFAIK. I've never seen a photograph with a green one included.

 

John

 

The odd green one did run in the Bournemouth Belle. One of the colour albums in my book collection has a photo of a class 47 hauled Bournemouth Belle with a green BG, and the SEMG pages have photo with Bulleid pacific 34087 hauling the train with a green BG at the front - here https://sremg.org.uk/misc/named_02.html : scroll down to aprroximately half way down the page.

For a photo with a chocolate and cream BG, there is one near the bottom of this page: https://www.kentrail.org.uk/bournemouth_belle.htm. Note the Pullman brake car there as well. Anotehr one here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Raynes_Park_Bournemouth_Belle_geograph-2966169-by-Ben-Brooksbank.jpg .

 

Somewhere in these RMweb forums, someone did post the two numbers of the two WR BGs the SR 'borrowed'. I have only been able to find one of them, W80713, but if I do find the other, I'll edit this post, rather than leading the topic off-topic again.

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by SRman