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Hornby 2021 - SR Bogie Luggage van


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I knew there had to be some evidence of it happening! Nothing like posting on here to flush it out!

 

Clearly, though, if (as posted by Combe Martin earlier) only half a dozen BGs were painted green, they wouldn't have been a common sight on any service. 

 

John

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On 02/05/2021 at 20:40, Jack P said:

 

I actually meant were any painted Southern Malachite, from what I understand the droplight converted ones were returned to the Southern in 1945 - some of them might have been given a lick of paint, post war?

 

There was quite a bit of discussion here earlier about the ambulance converted ones returning to the Southern after the war and re-painting.  As far as I remember there was no definite consensus as to whether they were repainted or not, but if they were it would have been back to Southern Olive like the Hornby model, provided the works could find some paint (things were tight then, post war austerity !).  No mention of Malachite.  Many thought a lot would have stayed covered in grime like most parcels vans (NPCCS), but I'm not so sure. Mike King in his book makes the comment that these were often kept cleaner because they often ran in passenger trains, eg Boat trains to Southampton or Weymouth, and the Golden Arrow.  

 

Re-painting into Crimson under BR started in 1949. 

Edited by Combe Martin
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29 minutes ago, Combe Martin said:

 

There was quite a bit of discussion here earlier about the ambulance converted ones returning to the Southern after the war and re-painting.  As far as I remember there was no definite consensus as to whether they were repainted or not, but if they were it would have been back to Southern Olive like the Hornby model, provided the works could find some paint (things were tight then, post war austerity !).  Definitely no mention of Malachite.  Many thought a lot would have stayed covered in grime like most parcels vans (NPCCS), but I'm not so sure. Mike King in his book makes the comment that these were often kept cleaner because they often ran in passenger trains, eg Boat trains to Southampton or Weymouth, and the Golden Arrow.  

 

Re-painting into Crimson under BR started in 1949. 

I wasn't aware that anything was painted olive after the war. The works had no problem painting Bulleid's new coaches in Bulleid malachite - why would these vans be different?

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25 minutes ago, Combe Martin said:

........ these were often kept cleaner because they often ran in passenger trains, eg ............the Golden Arrow.  

The 'Arrer' normally ran with a pair of four-wheel vans in the early post-war period ..... then one was replaced with a 'Conflat D'* for the registered luggage containers early in BR days. I don't think I've seen pictures of GBLs in use until the Brits ( and 'U' type Pullmans ) arrived in 1951.

 

* This would have been a six-wheel Baggage Box Truck before the war.

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59 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

The 'Arrer' normally ran with a pair of four-wheel vans in the early post-war period ..... then one was replaced with a 'Conflat D'* for the registered luggage containers early in BR days. I don't think I've seen pictures of GBLs in use until the Brits ( and 'U' type Pullmans ) arrived in 1951.

 

* This would have been a six-wheel Baggage Box Truck before the war.

 

I wasn't suggesting that the Golden Arrow used a GBL just after the war, just that it's said that they were likely kept clean generally because of use on that type service.  I have seen a colour picture of it about to leave Victoria behind an un-rebuilt Merchant Navy (in the very early fifties) with a crimson GBL at the front, but that book's locked away in storage at the moment, so I don't have the exact details to hand.

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1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

I wasn't aware that anything was painted olive after the war. The works had no problem painting Bulleid's new coaches in Bulleid malachite - why would these vans be different?

 

I'm not expert at all about this period, I was just quoting the impression I'd got from the earlier discussion about the return of the GBLs from Ambulance duty.  I got the impression from the discussion that paint then was in short supply and these weren't a priority, but it was suggested that there may have been some left over olive around that could have been used to clean them up.   

 

As I said earlier there was no consensus about what happened.

Edited by Combe Martin
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The olive / sage / any-other-botanical-you-can-think-of Maunsell green was mixed by the paint shop so could not have been left over in any significant quantity ....................... there MIGHT have been ingredients left over for mixing batches after the war - for touching up - but I have yet to be convinced that anything was fully painted this colour after 1941.

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42 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

The olive / sage / any-other-botanical-you-can-think-of Maunsell green was mixed by the paint shop so could not have been left over in any significant quantity ....................... there MIGHT have been ingredients left over for mixing batches after the war - for touching up - but I have yet to be convinced that anything was fully painted this colour after 1941.

Probably not, but any vehicles from the lower reaches of the food chain that had been repainted olive after 1938 (when malachite was introduced) would be expected to survive on touching up in that shade, along with regular re-varnishing, for at least ten years; so stocks of ingredients would have been maintained.  

 

Everything was in short supply immediately after WW2 and, apart from a relatively small number used in prestige formations, most GBLs were employed on mundane newspaper and parcels work.

 

Post-war and pre-nationalization, I'd think full paint jobs would have mainly been confined to new and overhauled front-line passenger vehicles, with any complete repainting of NPCS occurring only in case of exceptional need. By 1945, these vans were 15 years old and, by the usual schedules, all should have had one previous overhaul and repaint, with the next coming due c1950, around the time crimson began to be applied.

 

My guesstimate is therefore that no more than a handful are likely to have received malachite, and probably during the first year of BR rather than under the Southern Railway. 

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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Posted (edited)

 

On 15/01/2021 at 12:37, bude_branch said:

It's a great shame that, like the SR 58’ Maunsell Rebuilt (ex-LSWR 48’) Coaches, Hornby have decided not to release a green version with BR lettering and numbering. 

 

On 15/01/2021 at 14:06, Black 5 Bear said:

Maybe a future release for 2022 as I think most agree this would be a good seller.

 

This is probably because there is very little information on which ones were repainted into BR(S) green.

The Gould book lists the numbers of only 3 and a contributor on here has quoted the number of one more from another book (not one that I know).   All 4 of these are the short length vans without droplight windows whereas the Hornby model is of the longer van.  There is also the one used on the Golden Arrow, which had droplights, so isn't one of these 4.  (I'm still hoping that someone here will find the picture that I've previously quoted as showing its number).  So, unless someone (or Hornby) has more info, they cant do a BR(S) green one because it'll likely be wrong.  

 

So what Hornby have done is sensible as there's no info on which (if any) were repainted Southern Malachite post war and before BR Crimson started, and in BR days there's no green info for the long length van.

Edited by Combe Martin
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On 02/05/2021 at 10:03, MikeParkin65 said:

I wonder what the great man himself would have made of the idea of a model of his hearse circling the model railways of the nation at infinitum? :)

 

KBO

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If anyone comes across any solid evidence of any of the GBL's being repainted into malachite, Either before or after the war, pre or post conversion - let us know!

 

The only information I could find was on the SREMG  https://sremg.org.uk/model/4mm_lugg_vans_01.html 

Mr Graham Muz has repainted and detailed one of the Old Triang vans and painted 2356 in malachite.

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Mike King supplied many of the reference pictures to me when researching the GBLs during my time at Hornby @Jack P and from those, 2481 at Lancing on 5/9/51 and 2465 at Waterloo in 1950 were identified as being Malachite (of the 53' 3" stock). However, as Mike pointed out, just how many received Malachite is not known.

 

For those interested in such details, the GA used for overall reference was E19095, with end views featured on E18732

 

  • Brake pipe runs along one side on the preserved van, was on both sides in service.
  • Handbrake wheels are positioned opposite each other.
  • Mansell wheels noted as being used on a number of photographs.
  • Droplights were fitted to centre doors from 1945 onwards, no drawing was located showing the amendment.
  • Note the prominent roof board mountings, even into 1951 and beyond.
  • Planking is evenly spaced
  • There were two different buffer types used, round and modified. The modified version looks similar to that used on the 58’ ex-LSWR coaches done previously, featured on Drg. E24015.
  • For those vans in service during the 1960s (the Departmental stock and S2464), the top step was removed, but the three steps on the left-hand side remained.
  • Departmental versions obviously differ, and get bodged about, but the most ‘common’ modification is the removal of the gangway, the doorway planked (with a frame added) and the addition of an oblong box, above the electrical connection and lamp bracket. 
  • External fittings are referred to in E4195, E13689, E17045 and E23541. 

Further information on Casualty Evacuation Trains can be found at Kew, referring to AN 2/19 Casualty Evacuation Trains (Described at item level) and AN 2/174 Ambulance trains, Equipping and Conversion: 
www.qaranc.co.uk: The unofficial website of The Queen Alexandra's Royal Army Nursing Corps (QARANC) also has some interesting information...

Screenshot 2021-05-04 at 09.35.12.png

 

Screenshot 2021-05-04 at 10.04.57.png

 

As you can see, there does seem to be some discrepancy between ambulance conversions, and notations of vehicles being used in CETs. The CETs were for civilian use, early in the war, while Ambulance trains were for repatriation at the end of the war. They are not the same thing...

 

Edited by Islesy
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The Vacuum pipe run was only on one side of the chassis - but the other side had a steam pipe ( conspicuous in some photos for its insulation ). From a QUICK squint at a few photos, the round buffers seem to be on the 53' vans and the 'clipped' ones on the 51' ........ I think Hornby have made their round ones a little smaller than they should be.

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Mine arrived today from Derails who have become my retailer of choice , excellent service and free postage =) (those £4 postage charges for everything soon add up) . As with everything lately I'll get it on the layout when Covid restrictions allow,  really impressed with it, RTR just gets better and better! 

 

Now to hunt down a Van B I missed out on...

 

IMG_20210504_181136_edit_52477015727929.jpg.5d2ef34a6beea66b56451be75b643954.jpg

 

IMG_20210504_181119_edit_52437407976373.jpg.51b2e710ae24cbe18efd7eefa732f522.jpg

 

IMG_20210504_181126_edit_52460360140432.jpg.86efb46a5e3518e94e858268e7569cca.jpg

 

 

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1 hour ago, GreenGiraffe22 said:

Mine arrived today from Derails who have become my retailer of choice , excellent service and free postage =)

 

So did mine, I opted for both numbers (R60020 & R60020A)

The only complaint is the droopy couplings.

Unfortunately this is quite common with vehicles with close coupling units and it makes coupling a pair of Roco or Hornby close couplers more difficult.

Once actually coupled together they are much better

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Can anybody explain why these vehicles were fitted with BS gangways?

The stock they were coupled to would almost invariably be Buckeyes & Pullman type gangways.

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According to "the book" the BS gangways were fitted with Pullman adaptors from the get-go, so maybe the gangways themselves were recycled just like the underframes.

 

However, what SR corridor stock of pre-group origin would have been in line for withdrawal as early as 1929/30? 

 

John  

Edited by Dunsignalling
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13 hours ago, Islesy said:

Mike King supplied many of the reference pictures to me when researching the GBLs during my time at Hornby @Jack P and from those, 2481 at Lancing on 5/9/51 and 2465 at Waterloo in 1950 were identified as being Malachite (of the 53' 3" stock). However, as Mike pointed out, just how many received Malachite is not known.

 

Thank you so much Islesy, that is a real wealth of information and much appreciated.

 

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

However, what SR corridor stock of pre-group origin would have been in line for withdrawal as early as 1929/30? 

 

Some Ex-LBSC stock didn't make it far into grouping (AFAIK), most of the stuff that had been retained by nationalization was in Departmental use, or on the IOW.

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28 minutes ago, Jack P said:

 

 

 

 

Some Ex-LBSC stock didn't make it far into grouping (AFAIK), most of the stuff that had been retained by nationalization was in Departmental use, or on the IOW.

 

That boils down to 2 main reasons

 

  • The LBSCR had a larger loading gauge (thus allowing wider / taller coaching stock) than either the LSWR or SECR sections of the newly formed Southern Railway
  • The LBSCR had standardised on the Westinghouse air brake as opposed to the vacuum brake of the other two entities.

 

As such LBSCR assets were thus far less useful to the combined group without expensive rebuilding that simply wasn't worth it (rolling stock wise - many locos did get modifications to lower fittings or cabs in later years were necessary). The final nail in the coffin however was the electrification of all principal ex LSBCR main lines before WW2 (Brighton & worthing 1932, Eastbourne & Hastings 1935 and Arun Valley / coastway west to Portsmouth 1938) displacing lots of LBSCR stock that was of no use on the other two divisions.

 

Consequently by the time WW2 ended, other than those vehicles which were sent over to the IOW, there wasn't much ex LSBCR stock to be nationalised.

 

 

Edited by phil-b259
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13 hours ago, melmerby said:

Can anybody explain why these vehicles were fitted with BS gangways?

The stock they were coupled to would almost invariably be Buckeyes & Pullman type gangways.

The  Pullman gangway acts as the buffer between the two adjacent vehicles so needs strength for springing at both headstock and cantrail level. Though the chassis were lengthened for the GBLs  and could probably have had gangway springing incorporated, the bodies would not have been up to it without a major redesign from what is no more than a stretched 'Edith Cavell' van.

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TTBOMK, Pullman gangways never appeared on flat ended coaches, which makes sense as steel framed bow-ending provides structural support for gangway faceplates that perform the buffering role on buckeye fitted vehicles.  The GLV bodies were wooden framed. 
 

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My three turned up from Kernow this morning - just stunning, and each for less than Bachmann's latest price for a 14T tank wagon....

 

One has already received a trial fit of Kadee couplers;  a pair of #18s that are spot on for both length and height in the factory CCUs.

 

The thought occurs that, as a possible future bonus, Hornby have added what is effectively a Fox Pattern 8' wheelbase bogie to their repertoire....

 

John

 

 

Edited by Dunsignalling
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26 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

........ Hornby have added what is effectively a Fox Pattern 8' wheelbase bogie to their repertoire....

No !  -  Hornby have added what is EXACTLY a Fox's pressed steel bogie ........ which they could do with different axleboxes ( and springs ? ) for any number of other railways without too much tweaking ( should they wish to ).

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2 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

No !  -  Hornby have added what is EXACTLY a Fox's pressed steel bogie ........ which they could do with different axleboxes ( and springs ? ) for any number of other railways without too much tweaking ( should they wish to ).

Not to mention more LSWR coaches than you could shake a stick at!

 

John

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