Hornby 2021 - SR Bogie Luggage van

[Tony Teague]

19 hours ago, Jack P said:

Did any of these end up in malachite? 

 

8 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

They never BUILT any bogie gangwayed ( full ) brakes - but they inherited a few from the LSWR, a handful of which ( 56' Great War Ambulance Car conversions ) just about made it into B.R. days.

 

Did the GBLs receive malachite green ? - well, "Most vans required extensive underframe repairs between 1945 and 1948" according to Mike King so they may well have got a repaint at that time before "British Railways crimson-lake livery began to appear in 1949". ( Any vans in Maunsell green that had survived the war particularly well might have ben 're-varnished' ......... did the Evacuation Train conversions need repainting from some 'special' colour, I wonder ? - I'd guess they retained Maunsell green on conversion ! ) 

 

I had some correspondence with Mike King on this subject about 8 years ago, when I was converting my Triang vans, and he said that "malachite vans were rare animals"; my question had been about whether on a malachite van the word "Railway" appeared, or if just "Southern", as on most malachite stock, then where was the word positioned. He could find very few images of vans that were definately malachite, but we agreed that on those that were, the word "Southern" stayed excatly where it had been when olive, whilst the word "Railway" was simply omitted.

Hope this helps!

 

Tony

[Wickham Green too]

1 minute ago, Tony Teague said:

I had some correspondence with Mike King on this subject about 8 years ago, when I was converting my Triang vans, and he said that "malachite vans were rare animals"; my question had been about whether on a malachite van the word "Railway" appeared, or if just "Southern", as on most malachite stock, then where was the word positioned. He could find very few images of vans that were definately malachite, but we agreed that on those that were, the word "Southern" stayed excatly where it had been when olive, whilst the word "Railway" was simply omitted.

Hope this helps!

 

Tony

Yes - but the word 'SOUTHERN' would have been in Bulleid style lettering even if the van - or any other coaching stock - had 'just' been re-varnished post-war.

( It's often been said that "malachite vans were rare animals" with the implication that they continued to receive Maunsell green paint when everything else was going malachite .............. I suspect the Southern didn't actually retain several tanker-loads of Maunsell green for this purpose  -  re-varnishing is far more likely ............ though brake-dust brown wold have been the standard livery for most NPCS. )

[Tony Teague]

2 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Yes - but the word 'SOUTHERN' would have been in Bulleid style lettering even if the van - or any other coaching stock - had 'just' been re-varnished post-war.

( It's often been said that "malachite vans were rare animals" with the implication that they continued to receive Maunsell green paint when everything else was going malachite .............. I suspect the Southern didn't actually retain several tanker-loads of Maunsell green for this purpose  -  re-varnishing is far more likely ............ though brake-dust brown wold have been the standard livery for most NPCS. )

 

Maybe, but I wasn't implying that they got repainted in olive, rather that they simply didn't get repainted.

[Wickham Green too]

Sorry, the implication - elsewhere - has been that the Southern were still churning out new vans in Maunsell green during and after the war : They built somewhere in the region of 500 Luggage Vans and Covcars during that period and a swift back-of-a-fag-packet calculation ( modern paint at 10 sqm / litre ) shows they'd have needed somewhere in the region of 10,000 gallons of paint to give them just two coats : that's an awful lot of paint to have had lying around spare - and, arguably, less likely if it had to be made up from base ingredients.

[Dunsignalling]

9 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Sorry, the implication - elsewhere - has been that the Southern were still churning out new vans in Maunsell green during and after the war : They built somewhere in the region of 500 Luggage Vans and Covcars during that period and a swift back-of-a-fag-packet calculation ( modern paint at 10 sqm / litre ) shows they'd have needed somewhere in the region of 10,000 gallons of paint to give them just two coats : that's an awful lot of paint to have had lying around spare - and, arguably, less likely if it had to be made up from base ingredients.

It's the GLVs that are under discussion. The were constructed on second-hand underframes, IIRC,  between 1928-31 (give or take a year either way). As timber-bodied vans, they are unlikely to have been been scheduled for repainting prior to the outbreak of war, so those that did receive malachite almost certainly did so after peace returned. Full repaints during WW2 would only have been done when absolutely unavoidable, as with vehicles extensively repaired/rebuilt after bomb damage.

 

Most coaching stock received a "going over" at yearly or two-yearly intervals to preserve them, so the colours they were painted in, or more especially the pigments to mix them, would have remained "current" for many years after they ceased to be used on new-build vehicles. The quantities per vehicle would have been relatively small as only "touching up" and revarnishing was taking place.  

 

The colour used on the myriad new-build non-gangwayed vans, and when it changed, are altogether separate matters.

 

John

 

[Robin Brasher]

In Eric Bottomley's painting 'Golden Days, Beckenham Junction' the SR Bogie Luggage Van is in BR green and the Bulleid Pacific has a cycling lion emblem with the two leading coaches being crimson and cream which suggests that the luggage van had been painted shortly after the new livery had been announced.  Tri-ang's original bogie luggage van was available either in crimson or green which also suggests that the utility vans were painted BR green.  Not sure how accurate either source is but I expect the luggage van on the Golden Arrow would have been immaculate.  On the photographs I have seen the SR Bogie Luggage Van on the Golden Arrow is crimson.  The original Tri-ang Bogie Luggage Van had opening doors, which added to the play value, subsequent versions had the weight omitted which made it unstable at the head of a train.  I wonder if the new models have opening doors and a weight in the chassis.

[Wickham Green too]

My Triang model was in Rail Blue ! - 'orrible it was.

 

Eric Bottomley's painting was probably take from a black and white photo so can't be considered 100% reliable for colours - with the loco and coaches in earlier liveries it's unlikely that the van is in 1956 British Railways green : it might have been in either red or malachite ( probably with B.R. insignia by this date )

[JohnR]

43 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

In Eric Bottomley's painting 'Golden Days, Beckenham Junction' the SR Bogie Luggage Van is in BR green and the Bulleid Pacific has a cycling lion emblem with the two leading coaches being crimson and cream which suggests that the luggage van had been painted shortly after the new livery had been announced.  Tri-ang's original bogie luggage van was available either in crimson or green which also suggests that the utility vans were painted BR green.  Not sure how accurate either source is but I expect the luggage van on the Golden Arrow would have been immaculate.  On the photographs I have seen the SR Bogie Luggage Van on the Golden Arrow is crimson.  The original Tri-ang Bogie Luggage Van had opening doors, which added to the play value, subsequent versions had the weight omitted which made it unstable at the head of a train.  I wonder if the new models have opening doors and a weight in the chassis.

 

Not got my copy of Gould's Southern Passenger Vans to hand, but I'm sure in there he states that literally only a handful of GBL vans managed to get a repaint into BR(S) Green, and that the vast majority ended their lives in BR Crimson. 

 

 

[JohnR]

35 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

My Triang model was in Rail Blue ! - 'orrible it was.

 

 

 

I dont think any of the GBL vans got as far as receiving Rail Blue - but the somewhat similar Van B's (with a guards compartment) did. 

 

Although at the back of my mind there is a picture of one GBL with its corridor connections removed in Blue? 

[Wickham Green too]

Departmental vehicles did get ( do get ? ) non-standard paint jobs at times.

[wainwright1]

2 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

My Triang model was in Rail Blue ! - 'orrible it was.

 

Eric Bottomley's painting was probably take from a black and white photo so can't be considered 100% reliable for colours - with the loco and coaches in earlier liveries it's unlikely that the van is in 1956 British Railways green : it might have been in either red or malachite ( probably with B.R. insignia by this date )

Rail Blue was 'orrible, from the boring blue and grey period. Thank god there is a better selection of brighter colours these days.

Ray

[The Johnster]

All of which begs the question, since we seem to have established that the majority of BLVs were not painted in Bullied sunshine malachite and went from Maunsell olive to BR crimson or BR(S) malachite, and Hornby are initially producing Maunsell olive or BR crimson, and The Johnster wants one, which will he choose for his 1948-58 layout?  In 1948 the majority would have been in filthy olive, and in 1958 the majority would have been in filthy crimson. 
 

The Johnster has not decided yet but is favouring olive and some industrial strength weathering at the moment, especially as he already has a Roxeyfied Triang in crimson.  BLVs were a bit of a moveable feast in detail according to which second hand LSWR underframe they sat on, so he will have no problem with them both appearing on the layout together...

Edited January 7, 2021 by The Johnster

[JohnR]

42 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

All of which begs the question, since we seem to have established that the majority of BLVs were not painted in Bullied sunshine malachite and went from Maunsell olive to BR crimson or BR(S) malachite, and Hornby are initially producing Maunsell olive or BR crimson, and The Johnster wants one, which will he choose for his 1948-58 layout?  In 1948 the majority would have been in filthy olive, and in 1958 the majority would have been in filthy crimson. 
 

The Johnster has not decided yet but is favouring olive and some industrial strength weathering at the moment, especially as he already has a Roxeyfied Triang in crimson.  BLVs were a bit of a moveable feast in detail according to which second hand LSWR underframe they sat on, so he will have no problem with them both appearing on the layout together...

 

 

Hornby ought to offer one of these in "filthy" livery. So dirty you cant tell whethers its green or red, let alone what shade.

[Wickham Green too]

......... and a special one for The Johnster - red on one side and Maunsell green the other ......... under the filth, that is.

[Dunsignalling]

35 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

 

Hornby ought to offer one of these in "filthy" livery. So dirty you cant tell whethers its green or red, let alone what shade.

Quite so. The immaculate crimson examples used on the Golden Arrow were anything but typical!

 

John

[brushman47544]

6 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

My Triang model was in Rail Blue ! - 'orrible it was.

 

5 hours ago, JohnR said:

 

I dont think any of the GBL vans got as far as receiving Rail Blue

 

5 hours ago, JohnR said:

Not got my copy of Gould's Southern Passenger Vans to hand, but I'm sure in there he states that literally only a handful of GBL vans managed to get a repaint into BR(S) Green, and that the vast majority ended their lives in BR Crimson. 

 

I too had one of the Rail Blue ones . It does have one redeeming feature - the BR blue is closer to the real thing than my new Hornby Blue/Grey RB!

 

If only a few received BR (S) green and none BR Blue, were there still GBLs in BR crimson in use in the 60s? I would like a new one for nostalgic reasons but what can I legitimately (no Rule 1) run alongside my BR Blue Van Bs?

[Dunsignalling]

22 minutes ago, brushman47544 said:

 

 

 

I too had one of the Rail Blue ones . It does have one redeeming feature - the BR blue is closer to the real thing than my new Hornby Blue/Grey RB!

 

If only a few received BR (S) green and none BR Blue, were there still GBLs in BR crimson in use in the 60s? I would like a new one for nostalgic reasons but what can I legitimately (no Rule 1) run alongside my BR Blue Van Bs?

I came across a crimson CCT as late as 1967, a pal rubbed a bit with a wet hanky and said "look at this"!  At first look it appeared a disgusting shade of browny-grey.

 

However, all the GBL vans were gone long before the advent of Rail Blue (1961 according to Gould).

 

Churchill's funeral was in 1965 and the "hearse van" had been dragged out of a condemned siding to be done up.

 

John

Edited January 7, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Combe Martin]

These were sometimes referred to as a 'Corridor PMV'.  I've seen colour pictures of both crimson and green ones at the head of the Golden Arrow.  I think they always used the same one.  The green one had the droplight windows on the centre doors.  I havn't got access to my Gould book at the moment, but recall that he felt very few were repainted BR green, and a quoted few numbers (no more than 6) and said there were no repainting records kept so couldn't be sure (something like that).

 

I have even seen a photo of one on the Somerset & Dorset leaving Evercreech Junction at the head of what's probably a 'branch' train being hauled by a 3F.

.   

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

Churchill's funeral was in 1965 and the "hearse van" had been dragged out of a condemned siding to be done up.

The interesting thing is that the van was painted in pseudo Pullman colours in July '62 long before the Great Man passed away ( a second paint date of Jan.'65 can only have been re-varnishing as the funeral was on the 30th ) ....................... Why did they choose this superannuated van for such a prestige purpose, anyway ? - perhaps they needed something with centre doors and couldn't find anything else ??!?

[phil_sutters]

2 hours ago, Combe Martin said:

 

 

I have even seen a photo of one on the Somerset & Dorset leaving Evercreech Junction at the head of what's probably a 'branch' train being hauled by a 3F.

.   

The ones usually used on the Somerset Central line were either the one below, with four double-doors or the four wheeled version. There were other ex-LMS vans used as well. This one was also used on the milk trains from Bason Bridge. I think this is one that Hornby made previously.

Edited January 7, 2021 by phil_sutters
Additional info

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

The interesting thing is that the van was painted in pseudo Pullman colours in July '62 long before the Great Man passed away ( a second paint date of Jan.'65 can only have been re-varnishing as the funeral was on the 30th ) ....................... Why did they choose this superannuated van for such a prestige purpose, anyway ? - perhaps they needed something with centre doors and couldn't find anything else ??!?

Yes, I gather it was done in conjunction with pre-planning for the event following a deterioration in Sir Winston's health the previous winter. The SR got the job (I think) because the Pullman works was on their patch, under an assumption that would supply the rest of the coaches. Was it stored there after conversion? If not, where?

 

Your idea of it being the centre doorway requirement that led to it being chosen is probably correct. I can't think of any other vehicle with both that and gangways. Anything newer had guard accommodation in the middle.

 

Given it was going to be a one-off duty, the age of the vehicle wouldn't have been an issue. AIUI the van was chosen as the having the best bodywork from about half a dozen in the sidings where it was languishing, though I have heard it said it was just the easiest one to get out! Had it needed any major parts replacing, they could presumably have been obtained from the others.

 

John 

Edited January 7, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

18 minutes ago, phil_sutters said:

The ones usually used on the Somerset Central line was either the one below, with four double-doors or the four wheeled version. There were other ex-LMS vans used as well.

That's an ordinary (non-gangwayed) Van B with central guard's compartment. Pity the other coach isn't visible. I think it was an ex-LMS 60' CK, making for a rather unusual branch-line 2-set.

 

I've also seen photos of an ex-LNER Thompson 6-wheel BZ van in similar use around that time.

 

John

 

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Tony Cane]

While the Casualty evacuation trains, that used these vans, remained in the owners livery, there were at least 35 of these vans that were part of military ambulance trains. These would have been painted in the green specified for these trains. A check against the register in Gould's Southern Railway Passenger Vans shows that, where the SR van number is known, they returned to normal use in the UK and were withdrawn from 1959 onwards.  What is not known is when these were converted from ambulance ward cars back to luggage vans.

This may not have been done immediately, so may not have been repainted in malachite, but went straight into BR livery. However these must be the most likely candidates for late Southern livery.

[KDG]

13 minutes ago, Tony Cane said:

While the Casualty evacuation trains, that used these vans, remained in the owners livery, there were at least 35 of these vans that were part of military ambulance trains. These would have been painted in the green specified for these trains. A check against the register in Gould's Southern Railway Passenger Vans shows that, where the SR van number is known, they returned to normal use in the UK and were withdrawn from 1959 onwards.  What is not known is when these were converted from ambulance ward cars back to luggage vans.

This may not have been done immediately, so may not have been repainted in malachite, but went straight into BR livery. However these must be the most likely candidates for late Southern livery.

Tony, do you know what the preferred traction was for these ambulance trains? They consisted of 2 brake coaches, 9 bogie luggage vans, plus dining car.

Edited January 7, 2021 by KDG
Correction

[phil_sutters]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

That's an ordinary (non-gangwayed) Van B with central guard's compartment. Pity the other coach isn't visible. I think it was an ex-LMS 60' CK, making for a rather unusual branch-line 2-set.

 

I've also seen photos of an ex-LNER Thompson 6-wheel BZ van in similar use around that time.

 

John

 

 

You can see a cross-section of the assorted stock used on the line in my album of Dad's photos at