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Hornby 2021 - SR Bogie Luggage van


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22 hours ago, Tony Cane said:

.... It is known that due to “customers” complaints the officers ward car in ambulance trains used by the Americans had extra windows added. ......

Another point - which I don't think has been covered - is that droplights in the centre doors ( or elsewhere ) would have allowed the 'passengers' to escape if there had been an accident : nine or ten vans in a row with no door that could be opened from inside certainly wouldn't pass today's Elf 'n' Safety guys and might have been considered a little suspect even back then.

Edited by Wickham Green too
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Thank you for the information about the SR Utility vans.  When I bought my Tri-ang Utility Van in 1958 I thought it was an excellent model.  The green colour looked correct for Southern region green,  it had 12 opening doors and imitation metal grills on the doors.  My first model had a weight on the chassis but coarse scale wheel standards, open axle boxes and an older style of Tri-ang couplings. The two Southern Utility vans that I bought in 1994 were still made in England but the printing of the lettering had been improved and the grill on the windows were finer. The wheels were to a finer standard but the white wheel rims detracted from the appearance as did the lack of headstocks on the buffers. The lack of weights on this and subsequent models could lead to derailments when heading a Pullman train.  The blue and Winston Churchill vans were made in China.  They have better wheels but there is no lettering on the Winston Churchill van and the printing on the blue van were not as fine as those on the models produced in Margate. There was another model in the Primary Series which, I think, was green with red doors that is highly sought after. I don't think British Rail ever painted these utility vans blue.

P1000317.JPG

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I believe all the GLVs were withdrawin by 1961, the Winston Churchill hearse being repainted to match Pullmans and kept back as it was pretty obvious the old guy was drain circling, and of course called into use in 1965, so none were ever painted in rail blue.  Hornby at the time were selling a train set of Freightliner wagons pulled by a vacuum braked loco, and one with a Midland 3F and a shorty (obsolete stock) mk1 CK with a 'maroon' GLV, 'The Midlander', which was presumably concieved on the basis that a GLV would 'do' as a BG.  It is possible that the set was inspired by Highbridge branch traffic on the S&DJ, which frequently featured BGs or Van Bs with a single passenger coach, to deal with the Clark's shoe traffic from (Glastonbury and) Street, but this was clearly all forgotten when the marketing people had their say. 

 

Red/orange doors would have been incorrect on a GLV; they were used on the Southern to indicate Van Bs and BYs with coal stoves in the brake comparments that could be used as brake vans on unheated trains.

 

The veracity of Hornby products from this period should, I contend, be regarded with this in mind, as should their insistence on using generic B1 bogies on GLVs, Colletts, Thompsons, generic Collett Maunsells, Caleys, and Staniers.  They fully deserved the hammering they got when the likes of Airfix, Mainline, and even Lima showed up...

 

The Roxey kit produces a vehicle with the correct bogies that rides at the correct height, and has decent underframe and buffers; it transforms the old Triang van.  Sadly, it's days are numbered with this new release; kudos to Roxey for an excellent product that has served us well for many years.

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3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 and one with a Midland 3F and a shorty (obsolete stock) mk1 CK with a 'maroon' GLV, 'The Midlander',

The Midlander set had full length mk1 coaches in maroon, no GLV.

 

6 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

 There was another model in the Primary Series which, I think, was green with red doors that is highly sought after.

 

This was not in the Primary series but in the Old Smoky Set.

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The locomotive in the Old Smoky set was unique in Tri-ang Railways and Tri-ang Hornby days, as the loco and tender were “factory weathered”.

 

4D8C2B70-8D64-4A0F-B294-032ED6E86A13.jpeg.6d78df9501108cc0d67e6755759f2c13.jpeg

 

Possibly the first UK outline model to be so weathered?

 

Different examples shew differences in the applied weathering.

 

The base model was the standard BR Lined black, with late crest, version.

 

The weathering paint is basically a brown colour...

 

1AD97D9A-B561-4E83-AB4F-C2C10218E69F.jpeg.95831a3368df503a99f537eb07ac1793.jpeg

 

The GLV in this set was also unique, and apart from the red doors, it had a white roof.

 

The coach was the one used in the contemporary starter sets, both clockwork and electric, with the “Top Tank” loco.

 

E65442A0-4837-4501-B801-E25F19448714.jpeg.fcbd62821a83b8f97819a4b54617ff4b.jpeg

 

The “Midlander” set has the “Deeley” 3F in a version of Midland Railway crimson lake livery, with the loco number on the tender sides, and a representation of the Company Crest on the cab sides.

 

B960144F-0382-4D0B-B105-012C8B6AAE83.jpeg.7e265b4251fc37e8636fa5500fc08a98.jpeg

 

The coaches were BR Mk1 coaches, CK Composite, and BSK Brake Second, in BR maroon livery epithet BR coaching stock rounders.

 

4456E76B-B70D-432A-900F-43B093957643.jpeg.0bc762ad40c32a8748abd04cc3b4c39b.jpeg

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Confusing my Midlanders and Old Smokies, then.  Don't laugh, you'll be old and useless one day...

 

St Pancras with colour light signals and lined maroon mk1s is no place for a crimson lake liveried 3F.

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On 09/01/2021 at 23:36, Ruffnut Thorston said:

 

4D8C2B70-8D64-4A0F-B294-032ED6E86A13.jpeg.6d78df9501108cc0d67e6755759f2c13.jpeg

 

 

The GLV in this set was also unique, and apart from the red doors, it had a white roof.

 

E65442A0-4837-4501-B801-E25F19448714.jpeg.fcbd62821a83b8f97819a4b54617ff4b.jpeg

 

 

Looks like the artist's impression on the box got the van's colours right-ish ...... but the factory copied that and thought the outside of the doors should be the same colour as the inside !

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Boss to bloke in factory - "Make them like that" whilst handing over picture.

 

Bloke in factory to other blokes in factory - "You know those doors you've made in green? Bin 'em. The boss wants them in red."

 

 

That's how it works innit?  :jester:

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On 08/01/2021 at 13:32, Tony Cane said:

....... It is known that due to “customers” complaints the officers ward car in ambulance trains used by the Americans had extra windows added. .......

Slightly off topic - but it's obvious from this that the ociffers in question weren't familiar with the Great Western's amblance trains : unlike the Southern's GBLs which started out with six windows per side, their Siphon G conversions had a mere five windows ....................... two on one side an' three on t'other. ( They did, though, have draught hand-holes for access to the outside handles.)

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I wonder, does anyone know if any images exist of the interior of Sir Winstons coach? Would be nice to be able to recreate the interior. Chris Leigh did one for Model Rail a few years ago now, but that was just a box with an English flag painted on it.  

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If we're allowing pedantry, it's a Union Flag.  A Union Jack is the flagstaff on a ship from which a Union Flag may be flown.  The Union Flag represents the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, despite not having any representation of two of the four nations of which the UK as a political entity is comprised.  Great Britain, which is not a political entity  but a geographical one, the largest of the British Isles archipelago, has no flag that represents it. 

 

The Union Flag features a combination of the red cross on a white field, the flag of St George, patron saint of England since the Crusades when he supplanted St Edward (the Confessor) as patron, and the Saltire, white diagonal cross on a blue field, flag of the patron saint of Scotland, St Andrew, crucified in this position as he claimed to be unworthy of the same death as Jesus.  The overlaid red diagonal cross is intended to represrent the Red Dragon of Wales, but Wales's patron saint, David, whose flag is a yellow diagonal cross on a blue background, is not represented, neither is thee a representation of any Irish symbol or token, such as relating to the Harp, St Patrick, or the Red Hand of Ulster (the ancient Irish kingdom of Ulster included areas now within the Republick of Eire and it's borders are not represented accurately by those of Northern Ireland, despite that being colloquialised as 'Ulster').

 

It is my view that, sadly, the red cross of St George has been largely appropriated by far right organisations and has come to have very negative connotations.  I am not English, but believe that English people need ways of expressing a national identity that they have as much right as anyone else to be justly proud of that would use a more positive symbol.  There is also no English national anthem, 'God Save The Queen' being the anthem of the United Kingdom.  I am not aware of a Northern Irish anthem either, and one must be very careful in identifying one given the sectarian sensibilities of that country.  The Welsh have 'Mae Hen 'Wlad fy'n Hadau' and the Scots 'Scotland the Brave' but these are of dubious 'official' status.

 

As we are commentinvg on the flag used to cover Winston Churchill's coffin, it is worth mentioning that he was very aware of the historical development and reasoning behind the design of this flag.  This is a man who, as Minister of Transport, refused to allow taxation of private cars to be used as a 'road fund' (despite it often being incorrectly described as such and still featuring in motorists' arguments with cyclists; 'i paid for this road, etc').  There is no such thing as a road fund in the UK, the tax is put into general Treasury funds and roads paid for by general Treasury funds, but Churchil made the point that, as Alfred the Great when he was King of Wessex and a legitimate ancestor of the English Monarchy, declared that all highways were the King's highways, and guaranteed free right of passage for all his subjects along them, a road fund tax would have been illegal and unconstitutional.

 

The pedants are revolting. 

 

 

 

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Getting back to the question posed as to the interior layout / fittings of Sir Winston's hearse van, those portrayed in Chris Leigh's model cited were, AFAIK, pretty much it, certainly in terms of anything that could be seen from outside with the centre doors open.

 

I don't ever recall seeing a photo which show any other doors open, so were they perhaps sealed when the van was prepared for its final duty?

 

Perhaps Chris, or those who care for the van in preservation, can enlighten us?

 

John

 

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1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

If we're allowing pedantry, it's a Union Flag.  A Union Jack is the flagstaff on a ship from which a Union Flag may be flown.  The Union Flag represents the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, despite not having any representation of two of the four nations of which the UK as a political entity is comprised.  Great Britain, which is not a political entity  but a geographical one, the largest of the British Isles archipelago, has no flag that represents it. 

 

The Union Flag features a combination of the red cross on a white field, the flag of St George, patron saint of England since the Crusades when he supplanted St Edward (the Confessor) as patron, and the Saltire, white diagonal cross on a blue field, flag of the patron saint of Scotland, St Andrew, crucified in this position as he claimed to be unworthy of the same death as Jesus.  The overlaid red diagonal cross is intended to represrent the Red Dragon of Wales, but Wales's patron saint, David, whose flag is a yellow diagonal cross on a blue background, is not represented, neither is thee a representation of any Irish symbol or token, such as relating to the Harp, St Patrick, or the Red Hand of Ulster (the ancient Irish kingdom of Ulster included areas now within the Republick of Eire and it's borders are not represented accurately by those of Northern Ireland, despite that being colloquialised as 'Ulster').

 

It is my view that, sadly, the red cross of St George has been largely appropriated by far right organisations and has come to have very negative connotations.  I am not English, but believe that English people need ways of expressing a national identity that they have as much right as anyone else to be justly proud of that would use a more positive symbol.  There is also no English national anthem, 'God Save The Queen' being the anthem of the United Kingdom.  I am not aware of a Northern Irish anthem either, and one must be very careful in identifying one given the sectarian sensibilities of that country.  The Welsh have 'Mae Hen 'Wlad fy'n Hadau' and the Scots 'Scotland the Brave' but these are of dubious 'official' status.

 

As we are commentinvg on the flag used to cover Winston Churchill's coffin, it is worth mentioning that he was very aware of the historical development and reasoning behind the design of this flag.  This is a man who, as Minister of Transport, refused to allow taxation of private cars to be used as a 'road fund' (despite it often being incorrectly described as such and still featuring in motorists' arguments with cyclists; 'i paid for this road, etc').  There is no such thing as a road fund in the UK, the tax is put into general Treasury funds and roads paid for by general Treasury funds, but Churchil made the point that, as Alfred the Great when he was King of Wessex and a legitimate ancestor of the English Monarchy, declared that all highways were the King's highways, and guaranteed free right of passage for all his subjects along them, a road fund tax would have been illegal and unconstitutional.

 

The pedants are revolting. 

 

 

 

I don’t like disagreeing with the Johnster, but the diagonal Red Cross on the Union flag is the cross of St Patrick, incorporated into the flag after the Union between the Kingdom of Great Britain and the Kingdom of Ireland in 1801. Look at paintings depicting eighteenth century battles for the earlier version of the flag. 
 

There is no representation of Wales on the Union flag. The ‘flag of St David’ is a modern thing, commercial and pinched from the arms of St David’s Cathedral via the WW2 Welsh Division tactical recognition flash. 
 

Finally, St Edmund, King and Martyr was the old patron saint of England. Bernard Cornwell mocks his death in one of his recent novels, but he was a popular patron saint for centuries. St George became popular after the crusades, and his banner became an easy to create rallying symbol.

 

I will continue to defer to him on goods guarding dits...

 

Paul

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42 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Getting back to the question posed as to the interior layout / fittings of Sir Winston's hearse van, those portrayed in Chris Leigh's model cited were, AFAIK, pretty much it, certainly in terms of anything that could be seen from outside with the centre doors open.

 

I don't ever recall seeing a photo which show any other doors open, so were they perhaps sealed when the van was prepared for its final duty?

 

Perhaps Chris, or those who care for the van in preservation, can enlighten us?

 

John

 

Thank you for that answer. Got there in the end. I didn’t think there would be any images around. Not sure that people 56 years ago would have been thinking “oh maybe I should take a photograph of this in case someone wants to make an accurate model of this in the future” haha. Cheers

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1 hour ago, exet1095 said:

There is no representation of Wales on the Union flag.

Which is because Wales is a principality of England, not a separate nation state...

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11 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

I wonder, does anyone know if any images exist of the interior of Sir Winstons coach? Would be nice to be able to recreate the interior. Chris Leigh did one for Model Rail a few years ago now, but that was just a box with an English flag painted on it.  

There is a short film here (no sound) that doesn't actually show right inside but the open doors make it look as though it is cream coloured on the inside.

 

 

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3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

It is my view that, sadly, the red cross of St George has been largely appropriated by far right organisations

Association Football nutters. 

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50 minutes ago, Islesy said:

Which is because Wales is a principality of England, not a separate nation state...

Act of conquest, rather than Act of Union (with apologies to those west of Offa's Dyke...)

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