Hornby 2021 - SR Bogie Luggage van

[Dunsignalling]

39 minutes ago, sandwich station said:

There is a short film here (no sound) that doesn't actually show right inside but the open doors make it look as though it is cream coloured on the inside.

 

 

That confirms at least one set of end doors was functional! Funny how you don't notice things unless looking for something specific.

 

It's a good few years since I last saw the footage and I'd have sworn the coffin was carried on through the middle pair!

 

John

 

[Ruffnut Thorston]

The Union Flag is properly only called the Union Jack when flown from the Jack Staff on a Royal Navy ship...The flag pole is the Jack Staff...

 

In flag design, it is customary to separate any elements derived from other flags with a white border, which is why there is so much white space on the Union Flag.

 

As has been stated above, the three countries that were joined by Acts of Union are represented, even though the largest part of the island of Ireland has since become a separate country, with a tricolour flag.

 

I think that it would be a good idea to add a representation of Wales onto the Union Flag.

 

This would be simply by inserting the green and white, with red dragon, flag in the centre of the red cross of England, overlapping the four arms slightly gives a better appearance, with a white border all around.

 

It makes a nice, colourful, flag.

 

If nothing else, it would make it a lot easier to get the flag the correct way up!

 

Flying your flag upside down is, at sea, a sign of distress it seems!    
 

[The Johnster]

There was an Act of Union between Wales and England, a fulfilled promise of Henry V11 to his Welsh supporters.  It was more than a box ticking excersise, and made a very real improvement to the lot of the Welsh, who were still not given the same rights and privileges as the English inside Wales.  For instance, in any legal dispute between a Welshman and an Englisman, English law was used and of course this was formulated to benefit the English at Welsh expense. The English incomers had better rights to own property, opern businesses, hold markets, and could sell their produce at higher prices to the Welsh than the Welsh could to them.  There were all sorts of civil restrictions on the Welsh that did not apply to the English within Wales; it was basically an Apartheid system.  So much for Wales as an English principality, and the efforts on Wales' behalf of it's English Princes.

 

After Henry's Act of Union, made law in 1536, establshed the Welsh as subjects of the crown with the same rights, privileges, and obligations as the crown's English subjects, which remains the current situation. Wales's status as a 'Nation' is a modern concept. there was never a unifiied national identity before the Edwardian conquest, and the Welsh themselves used the word 'Cymru' and described themselves as 'Cymry' to describe the area in which Welsh was spoken and those who spoke it respectively.  It was 19th century Welsh romantic nationalism that created the nation myths, the national anthem, the resurgence of the medieval Eisteddfodau, and the publication of the Mabinogion in an English translation which revived interest in the original Red Book of Hergest version.  The only thing left from the old days was the flag, first used by Glyndwr but harking back to Arthurian legend and Merlin, and the language, which would probably have died out like everything else had it not been for the efforts of Elizabeth the First, who insisted that all her subjects should have access to a protestant bible in their own language.

 

She also used the voyages of Prince Madog, who discovered land on the western side of the Atlantic Ocean and returned to Wales, then left again with a fleet of settlers never intending to return, as justification for English claims to the New World ove Spanish and Portuguese claims.  This would have been dodgy had it been challenged, because although there were records of Madogs voyages, there was a prior claim from Madog's own maternal ancestors the Vikings, who had landed in Canada some 250 years ahead of him.  Lief Ericsson's daughter was the first European born on the American continent, and, pagan notwithstanding, was presented to the Pope in Rome; she married into the Irish Viking dynasty which intermarried with the Welsh and Scots in medeval times, so she was one of Madog's ancesters.  This means that he was fully aware of land west of the Atlantic 200 years before Columbus and Cabot 'proved' it.  He had a better claim in one sense; Columbus landed on Hispaniola and Cabot on Newfoundland, neither ever setting foot on the American continent.

[trevor7598]

13 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Getting back to the question posed as to the interior layout / fittings of Sir Winston's hearse van, those portrayed in Chris Leigh's model cited were, AFAIK, pretty much it, certainly in terms of anything that could be seen from outside with the centre doors open.

 

I don't ever recall seeing a photo which show any other doors open, so were they perhaps sealed when the van was prepared for its final duty?

 

Perhaps Chris, or those who care for the van in preservation, can enlighten us?

 

John

 

The Churchill hearse van was on display at Corfe Castle in 2019 and we were

shown inside it. Although used for storage of materials it was completely open

inside and the paintwork was cream. It may still be there for inspection.

[Wickham Green too]

13 hours ago, sandwich station said:

There is a short film here (no sound) that doesn't actually show right inside but the open doors make it look as though it is cream coloured on the inside.

 

Interesting - it's not exactly the same colour as the outside cream ( unless it's a coat or two short ) and certainly not the brown that would have been standard for van internals at the time ( nor light green as it would have been in Southern days ).

 

I don't know whether four-wheelers had been banned from passenger trains by this date - but I can't help wondering whether anyone thought about hunting-down the original Edith Cavell van for this purpose ? - Sir Winston would have appreciated the link with its previous occupants, I'm sure.

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

Interesting - it's not exactly the same colour as the outside cream ( unless it's a coat or two short ) and certainly not the brown that would have been standard for van internals at the time ( nor light green as it would have been in Southern days ).

 

I don't know whether four-wheelers had been banned from passenger trains by this date - but I can't help wondering whether anyone thought about hunting-down the original Edith Cavell van for this purpose ? - Sir Winston would have appreciated the link with its previous occupants, I'm sure.

I'd think its probably the standard BR interior colour, usually referred to as "Stone" as applied to the insides of BR Mk1 brake vehicles.

 

Presumably through access from the adjacent coaches was required, otherwise there would have been numerous more modern options for the purpose.

 

There was no seating in the van so I'm guessing the pall bearers/guard of honour would have travelled in the single Pullman adjacent to the van, whilst the mourners/dignitaries went in the three on the other side.

 

John

[bude_branch]

It's a great shame that, like the SR 58’ Maunsell Rebuilt (ex-LSWR 48’) Coaches, Hornby have decided not to release a green version with BR lettering and numbering. 

[JohnR]

1 minute ago, bude_branch said:

It's a great shame that, like the SR 58’ Maunsell Rebuilt (ex-LSWR 48’) Coaches, Hornby have decided not to release a green version with BR lettering and numbering. 

 

Indeed, and like the ex-LSWR coaches, I'm sure many met their end without being repainted into BR crimson. 

[chrisf]

28 minutes ago, bude_branch said:

It's a great shame that, like the SR 58’ Maunsell Rebuilt (ex-LSWR 48’) Coaches, Hornby have decided not to release a green version with BR lettering and numbering. 

It should be a simple matter to remove unwanted lettering with a smidgin of T Cut on a cotton bud and to apply enough crud - sorry, weathering - to disguise the possibly incorrect shade of green.

 

Chris 

[Wickham Green too]

The shade of green Hornby have chosen - that which was chosen by the Southern's Board of Directors in the Maunsell era - is VERY different from that which any vans would have received post war. Those vans which hadn't been repainted since the thirties would need SERIOUS weathering such that the colour under the crud - sorry weathering - would be totally irrelevant.

[Black 5 Bear]

1 hour ago, bude_branch said:

It's a great shame that, like the SR 58’ Maunsell Rebuilt (ex-LSWR 48’) Coaches, Hornby have decided not to release a green version with BR lettering and numbering. 

Maybe a future release for 2022 as I think most agree this would be a good seller.

[JohnR]

26 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

The shade of green Hornby have chosen - that which was chosen by the Southern's Board of Directors in the Maunsell era - is VERY different from that which any vans would have received post war. Those vans which hadn't been repainted since the thirties would need SERIOUS weathering such that the colour under the crud - sorry weathering - would be totally irrelevant.

 

I would assume, that like the LSWR rebuilds, the green would have been varnished over, probably at the time of having an S prefix added. 

[truffy]

On 14/01/2021 at 18:04, The Johnster said:

If we're allowing pedantry, it's a Union Flag.  A Union Jack is the flagstaff on a ship from which a Union Flag may be flown.

 

On 15/01/2021 at 00:09, Ruffnut Thorston said:

The Union Flag is properly only called the Union Jack when flown from the Jack Staff on a Royal Navy ship...The flag pole is the Jack Staff...

 

Ummm...no. At least, not according to the Flag Institute (who might be considered an authoritative body):

http://www.flaginstitute.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Union-Jack-or-Union-Flag.pdf

Quote

It is certainly the considered view of the Flag Institute that both terms are correct; and that either may be used. It is the Union Jack, and the Union Flag. Officially and unofficially, we all know what the terms mean. It is the image, and the associations of character and history, that make the British flag what it is.

 

[RJEB]

There were two different lengths of Gangwayed Bogie Luggage vans with two different distances between bogie centres in three combinations:

Diagram 3100: length 51'3", bogie centres 36'3": nos 2281-2330

Diagram 3098: length 51'3", bogie centres 34'3": nos 2331-2354, 2482-2490

Diagram 3099: length 53'3", bogie centres 36"3': nos 2355-2370, 2461-2481

 

Hornby's are, by their running numbers, of Diagram 3099, rendering them suitable for Casualty Evacuation Trains 32 - 34 {later renumbered 332 - 334 to avoid confusion with Home Ambulance Trains}, Home Ambulance Train 68*, and Overseas Ambulance Train 47*

 

Diagram 3098 GBLs could be found in HAT 67*, and OAT 47*

 

* Records are incomplete for the SR sourced HATs and OATs.  Some CETs on disbandment had their GBLs transferred to make up HATs and OATs.

 

GBLs were used as Stretcher Vans in CETs and as Ward Cars in HATs and OATs;

               the nine each (originally ten each) in CETs retained their Southern Railway numbers

               the six each in HATs  67 and 68 were designated A1 – A3, A4 – A6;

                        numbered (train number) 03 – 05, 07 – 09 respectively

               the seven each in OATs  36, 37 and 47 were designated A1 – A4, A5 – A7;

                        numbered (train number) 02 – 05, 07 – 09 respectively

 

The 4mm scale difference in the body lengths and bogie centres is 2/3 mm, less than a 1% discrepancy.

[Combe Martin]

51 minutes ago, RJEB said:

There were two different lengths of Gangwayed Bogie Luggage vans with two different distances between bogie centres in three combinations:

Diagram 3100: length 51'3", bogie centres 36'3": nos 2281-2330

Diagram 3098: length 51'3", bogie centres 34'3": nos 2331-2354, 2482-2490

Diagram 3099: length 53'3", bogie centres 36"3': nos 2355-2370, 2461-2481

 

Hornby's are, by their running numbers, of Diagram 3099, rendering them suitable for Casualty Evacuation Trains 32 - 34 {later renumbered 332 - 334 to avoid confusion with Home Ambulance Trains}, Home Ambulance Train 68*, and Overseas Ambulance Train 47*

 

Diagram 3098 GBLs could be found in HAT 67*, and OAT 47*

 

* Records are incomplete for the SR sourced HATs and OATs.  Some CETs on disbandment had their GBLs transferred to make up HATs and OATs.

 

GBLs were used as Stretcher Vans in CETs and as Ward Cars in HATs and OATs;

               the nine each (originally ten each) in CETs retained their Southern Railway numbers

               the six each in HATs  67 and 68 were designated A1 – A3, A4 – A6;

                        numbered (train number) 03 – 05, 07 – 09 respectively

               the seven each in OATs  36, 37 and 47 were designated A1 – A4, A5 – A7;

                        numbered (train number) 02 – 05, 07 – 09 respectively

 

The 4mm scale difference in the body lengths and bogie centres is 2/3 mm, less than a 1% discrepancy.

 

I feel I must question the arithmetic in the above.  A 2 foot difference in body length or bogie centres is 8mm not 2 thirds or 2 to 3 mm whichever the above means !   

[Pre Grouping fan]

Photos of the production samples of these have appeared in the latest Engine Shed blog.

Trailers and Tenders: Hornby Hobbies

[Robin Brasher]

The green and maroon versions have sold out on pre-order at Hattons.  The Winston Churchill version is still available there so perhaps it is less popular.

[Dunsignalling]

35 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

The green and maroon versions have sold out on pre-order at Hattons.  The Winston Churchill version is still available there so perhaps it is less popular.

Not really surprising, considering the real one was only used once....

 

John

Edited March 10, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Oldddudders]

17 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Not really surprising, considering the real one was only used once....

 

John

Quite so - but an essential model for anyone modelling Stewarts Lane in the early '60s, where it sat for some years in readiness for its solemn day of duty!

[Robin Brasher]

I am modelling the Swanage Railway and the funeral hearse moved to Swanage Station in October 2007.  It is still owned by the Swanage Railway Trust but it went to York for display.  It has been restored to exhibition standards at Shildon and is now on loan to the One One collection at Margate where, I assume, Hornby have measured it to make the model.

 

Unfortunately I have already got the previous Hornby model. There was only one Winston Churchill funeral hearse and not many people want the new Hornby model even fewer will want my old model if I want to sell it.

[Dunsignalling]

15 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

I am modelling the Swanage Railway and the funeral hearse moved to Swanage Station in October 2007.  It is still owned by the Swanage Railway Trust but it went to York for display.  It has been restored to exhibition standards at Shildon and is now on loan to the One One collection at Margate where, I assume, Hornby have measured it to make the model.

 

Unfortunately I have already got the previous Hornby model. There was only one Winston Churchill funeral hearse and not many people want the new Hornby model even fewer will want my old model if I want to sell it.

That said, the old van in the Churchill funeral train pack is several decades inferior to all the other contents.

 

I haven't got one of those, but if I had, I think I'd be inclined to replace the van with the new model. That obviously wouldn't be a motivation for those who bought the pack thinking of its potential future collector value, though.

 

John.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[3rd Rail Exile]

I too have the previous Winston Churchill funeral hearse model, in the pack Hornby issued a few years ago also containing 34051 and a couple of Pullman coaches.   That hasn't stopped me ordering the new model as it looks like it will be a vast improvement. 

 

The old one can either stay sat in the polystyrene packing or undergo some future fettling and repainting project, depending on whether I decide to keep the original pack together in "as bought" condition or not (as @Dunsignalling has just said whilst I was typing this...).   The rest of the pack does get used on "non-funeral" duties...

[Oldddudders]

5 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 That obviously wouldn't be a motivation for those who bought the pack thinking of its potential future collector value, though.

My heart bleeds for them - not!

[Butler Henderson]

3 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

The green and maroon versions have sold out on pre-order at Hattons.

And no doubt cancelled pre orders to follow.

[caradoc]

2 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Quite so - but an essential model for anyone modelling Stewarts Lane in the early '60s, where it sat for some years in readiness for its solemn day of duty!

 

I hope Sir Winston never passed Stewarts Lane on a train and asked 'what is that Pullman-liveried vehicle for ?' !!