Hornby 2021 - SR Bogie Luggage van

[sparky66]

Got a Southern one from Gaugemaster today. Looks great but can someone please explain where the grey oval board things go? Hornby give no instructions and there are no locating holes or anything. No idea why they aren't factory fitted unless some vans lacked them? I'd be willing to bet 90% of customers won't know what they are or where to put them and just leave them off.

[SRman]

3 hours ago, sparky66 said:

Got a Southern one from Gaugemaster today. Looks great but can someone please explain where the grey oval board things go? Hornby give no instructions and there are no locating holes or anything. No idea why they aren't factory fitted unless some vans lacked them? I'd be willing to bet 90% of customers won't know what they are or where to put them and just leave them off.

 

I'm guessing they would be the chalk boards (I have not yet received my GBL from Kernow) and would go about 1/3 to 1/2 way up the sides near the doors, but for exact positioning, it would really be ideal to find a photo of the real thing. A quick search on Google revealed a good many photos of preserved ones and models, but none seemed to have the boards fitted, so they may well be an optional item only for certain vehicles.

 

Edit: I have found one on the Bluebell Railway site with one only oval plate actually mounted on one of the doors:  http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/gbl.jpg .

 

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by SRman
Additional info put in

[Combe Martin]

6 hours ago, sparky66 said:

Got a Southern one from Gaugemaster today. Looks great but can someone please explain where the grey oval board things go? Hornby give no instructions and there are no locating holes or anything. No idea why they aren't factory fitted unless some vans lacked them? I'd be willing to bet 90% of customers won't know what they are or where to put them and just leave them off.

 

See the Mike King book on page 193.

 

They go below 'the second window in from the ends' (both ends on both sides), so therefore there is one each side of the central doors but one window away from them.

 

They are mounted just below the window centrally across the join in the wood planking.

[Dunsignalling]

4 hours ago, SRman said:

 

I'm guessing they would be the chalk boards (I have not yet received my GBL from Kernow) and would go about 1/3 to 1/2 way up the sides near the doors, but for exact positioning, it would really be ideal to find a photo of the real thing. A quick search on Google revealed a good many photos of preserved ones and models, but none seemed to have the boards fitted, so they may well be an optional item only for certain vehicles.

 

Edit: I have found one on the Bluebell Railway site with one only oval plate actually mounted on one of the doors:  http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/gbl.jpg .

 

 

Looking at that photo, it's not on a door, but under the first window in from the left hand pair of doors. That's the usual position, and there should be another under the corresponding window at the other end. The left and middle sets of doors on that van are considerably wider than normal. It has clearly been extensively modified at some time in its life, and I'd therefore be very wary of treating any feature on it as being typical. 

 

The chalk boards are an integral part of the body moulding on the old Tri-ang/previous Hornby vans.

 

I always thought their presence and position were constant on the prototypes, but the fact that Hornby are providing them separately suggests their researches may have thrown up variations. (see next post)

 

John

Edited May 1, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

I think I may have solved the mystery. Prototype photographs obtained by Googling the Churchill Hearse Van show the boards had been removed from it.

 

Hence the need for Hornby to omit them from the base moulding. I suspect that, when those models arrive, there won't be a set included.

 

John

Edited May 1, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Combe Martin]

41 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Looking at that photo, it's not on a door, but under the first window in from the left hand pair of doors. That's the usual position, and there should be another under the corresponding window at the other end. The left and middle sets of doors on that van are considerably wider than normal. It has clearly been extensively modified at some time in its life, and I'd therefore be very wary of treating any feature on it as being typical. 

 

The chalk boards are an integral part of the body moulding on the old Tri-ang/previous Hornby vans.

 

I always thought their presence and position were constant on the prototypes, but the fact that Hornby are providing them separately suggests their researches may have thrown up variations.

 

John

 

You'r right about the GBL at the Bluebell railway.  When they got it, it had been fitted with much wider central doors, I cant remember why now. From memory the number may have been 2462 but I could be wrong about that as I haven't got access to most of my books.   The online photo may be an old one though as I seem to recall that the Bluebell may have restored theirs to original condition now.

 

In SR days it would seem that some only had the chalk board on the left hand side.  The Mike King book has a photo of 2319 on page 191 dated 1933 that only has the one.

 

For anyone Roxleyfying  an old Triang type version, beware of the size and mounting position of the battery boxes. The ones provided in my kit were too small and on the drawing too, and on the drawing they are shown as being centrally mounted whereas they are actually mounted offset to the left. The Mike King drawing is also wrong in this aspect too.  To spot this in a photo though is difficult.  You need one that is exactly 'side on', I think the Gould book has one but you have to look carefully because its dark there. 

 

I have confirmed this, as I've crawled under the Bluebells van to check, and also crawled under the other preserved one at Robertsbridge too. This one seems to have been forgotten, it never seems to get a mention. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

Van 2462 has indeed been returned to as-(re)built condition, and is pictured on the Bluebell's website, beautifully restored in Maunsell olive green livery, but without chalk boards (at least on the side pictured). It's a stunning transformation when compared with the earlier photograph; much kudos to all concerned. 

 

The caption states it is now used as an exhibition space, and having a practical function (beyond mere storage) means it should continue to be looked after. Much of the neglect to "preserved" NPCS elsewhere seems to stem from its custodians failing to find it a purpose.

 

John

 

 

 

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Butler Henderson]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

I think I may have solved the mystery. Prototype photographs obtained by Googling the Churchill Hearse Van show the boards had been removed from it.

 

Hence the need for Hornby to omit them from the base moulding. I suspect that, when those models arrive, there won't be a set included.

Um..they could still have been factory fitted but suppose on the likelihood of them not being vertical and/or their being glue marks all over the place its a good job they are not.

[Dunsignalling]

27 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

Um..they could still have been factory fitted but suppose on the likelihood of them not being vertical and/or their being glue marks all over the place its a good job they are not.

Though it seems to be emerging that their application was not as uniform as I previously thought, i.e. only carrying one board per side to begin with but having an second commonly (though perhaps not universally) added later. There is also a possibility (albeit a fairly remote one IMHO) that the Churchill Hearse van wasn't the only one from which they got removed....

 

Keeping the options open may therefore prove to be a wise move on Hornby's part, but a note of explanation in the box would be helpful. 

 

John

Edited May 1, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Silver Sidelines]

A picture of one that I bought earlier.

 

 

R227 was purchased in the late 1950s and had a price ticket on the box of 7/11 (shillings and pence for the uninitiated).  Is that a real measure of inflation?

 

I had 'weathered' this model by adding dabs of back paint which were then removed with white spirit,  The perspex windows were replaced with tissue paper covered with varnish.  It had turned buffers replacement bogies and new wheels.......  It was sold in 2007 and went to Australia.

 

Two new models received in the post yesterday - all perfect.

 

Cheers Ray

Edited May 1, 2021 by Silver Sidelines

[it's-er]

There is a discussion going on here about Hornby's new bogie luggage van, but it Is gloriously abstract for those of us who haven't bought one yet!  Can several of you please put some photographs of the new model, including close ups, so we can see the detail it has?  Including of the underside, please?

 

Most of us have one, or more, of Hornby's longstanding model, and we want to know if the new model is such an improvement that we ought/need to put our existing stock in the attic or on eBay. In the original versions, the plank lines were protruding: presumably they are recessed on the new version. The hand wheel seems much improved, from Hornby's own photos, but what else is?

 

And "grey oval things" in the box?  Carriage destination boards?  Chalk boards?   Again, a photo, please!

 

John Storey

Edited May 1, 2021 by it's-er
Note: this request is more than fully answered by Graham Muz in his review posted later in the day.

[Combe Martin]

5 minutes ago, it's-er said:

There is a discussion going on here about Hornby's new bogie luggage van, but it Is gloriously abstract for those of us who haven't bought one yet!  Can several of you please put some photographs of the new model, including close ups, so we can see the detail it has?  Including of the underside, please?

 

Most of us have one, or more, of Hornby's longstanding model, and we want to know if the new model is such an improvement that we ought/need to put our existing stock in the attic or on eBay. In the original versions, the plank lines were protruding: presumably they are recessed on the new version. The hand wheel seems much improved, from Hornby's own photos, but what else is?

 

And "grey oval things" in the box?  Carriage destination boards?  Chalk boards?   Again, a photo, please!

 

John Storey

 

There are very good pictures (that can be blown up) on the Hornby website.  Just put GBL in the search box.

[Combe Martin]

56 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Though it seems to be emerging that their application was not as uniform as I previously thought, i.e. only carrying one board per side to begin with but having an second commonly (though perhaps not universally) added later. There is also a possibility (albeit a fairly remote one IMHO) that the Churchill Hearse van wasn't the only one from which they got removed....

 

Keeping the options open may therefore prove to be a wise move on Hornby's part, but a note of explanation in the box would be helpful. 

 

John

 

As with a lot of modelling, if you want to be accurate you have to do some research and find a photo of your intended subject.  And good luck with that one, hardly any are in colour !  

 

And as I recall, the only colour ones I've seen are at the front of the Golden Arrow.

Edited May 1, 2021 by Combe Martin

[Dunsignalling]

53 minutes ago, it's-er said:

There is a discussion going on here about Hornby's new bogie luggage van, but it Is gloriously abstract for those of us who haven't bought one yet!  Can several of you please put some photographs of the new model, including close ups, so we can see the detail it has?  Including of the underside, please?

 

Most of us have one, or more, of Hornby's longstanding model, and we want to know if the new model is such an improvement that we ought/need to put our existing stock in the attic or on eBay. In the original versions, the plank lines were protruding: presumably they are recessed on the new version. The hand wheel seems much improved, from Hornby's own photos, but what else is?

 

And "grey oval things" in the box?  Carriage destination boards?  Chalk boards?   Again, a photo, please!

 

John Storey

If you have the old model, it will be perfectly clear what the "oval things" are and where they go, at least on some vans some of the time!

 

I don't think the grey was universal, though; on lots of the Southern's planked passenger vans, the chalk boards seem to have been body colour.  

 

One photo is seldom much use, that's what Google is for!

 

John

Edited May 1, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

4 hours ago, it's-er said:

There is a discussion going on here about Hornby's new bogie luggage van, but it Is gloriously abstract for those of us who haven't bought one yet!  Can several of you please put some photographs of the new model, including close ups, so we can see the detail it has?  Including of the underside, please?

 

Most of us have one, or more, of Hornby's longstanding model, and we want to know if the new model is such an improvement that we ought/need to put our existing stock in the attic or on eBay. In the original versions, the plank lines were protruding: presumably they are recessed on the new version. The hand wheel seems much improved, from Hornby's own photos, but what else is?

 

And "grey oval things" in the box?  Carriage destination boards?  Chalk boards?   Again, a photo, please!

 

John Storey

It bears about as much resemblance to the old model as Hornby's Maunsells do to the alleged Maunsells from The Year of the Coach or their lit Pullmans do to the Railroad ones. In a completely different class. 

 

I've a partly converted old one in which I've invested several hours already. Once I've salvaged all the re-usable parts, it'll be going in the bin. As for selling them on, IMHO, even a free one wouldn't (to me) be worth the postage by comparison!

 

John

Edited May 1, 2021 by Dunsignalling
to me

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

It bears about as much resemblance to the old model as Hornby's Maunsells do to the alleged Maunsells from The Year of the Coach or their lit Pullmans do to the Railroad ones. In a completely different class. 

 

I've a partly converted old one in which I've invested several hours already. Once I've salvaged all the re-usable parts, it'll be going in the bin. As for selling them on, IMHO, even a free one wouldn't be worth the postage by comparison!

 

John

 

Still going for £20 plus. One sold on the Hattons preowned only yesterday for over £25 as I was keeping a eye on it.

 

So don't go binning things as there is a market for them.

 

 

 

Jason

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Still going for £20 plus. One sold on the Hattons preowned only yesterday for over £25 as I was keeping a eye on it.

 

So don't go binning things as there is a market for them.

 

 

 

Jason

Maybe worth it to collectors if they are mint/boxed but not one that's been hacked about like mine!

 

Two of the oldies at £20 to £25 each vs one of the new ones for £35? No contest. 

 

John

[Steamport Southport]

Boxed. Good, but not mint.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/663892/hornby_r174_coach_po32_bogie_luggage_van_2355_in_sr_green_pre_owned_good_box/stockdetail.aspx

 

What I'm trying to say there is still a market for them. Not everyone is going to be running out to buy the "new" ones.

 

Also not a great photo, but you can see the positions of the ovals. ISTR that not all of them had them though, probably why they've not been fitted. I don't think the SWC van has them.

 

 

Jason

[Dunsignalling]

22 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Boxed. Good, but not mint.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/663892/hornby_r174_coach_po32_bogie_luggage_van_2355_in_sr_green_pre_owned_good_box/stockdetail.aspx

 

What I'm trying to say there is still a market for them. Not everyone is going to be running out to buy the "new" ones.

 

Also not a great photo, but you can see the positions of the ovals. ISTR that not all of them had them though, probably why they've not been fitted. I don't think the SWC van has them.

 

 

Jason

Anyone who pays that for one when they can get the new model for only a fiver more (or just a quid if they can find a post-free deal) wants their head testing IMHO. The new one isn't the old one tarted up, it's an entirely new model, built to 2020s standards, not 1950s.

 

The Churchill Hearse van (logically) had the chalk boards removed - one more reason for buying the new version of that.

 

Photos indicate that some only had one per side when first built but the ex-works pictures on p.76 of Southern Passenger Vans (Gould) show 2319 with one, and 2326, built just a month later, with two.

 

John

Edited May 1, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[SRman]

8 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Looking at that photo, it's not on a door, but under the first window in from the left hand pair of doors. That's the usual position, and there should be another under the corresponding window at the other end. The left and middle sets of doors on that van are considerably wider than normal. It has clearly been extensively modified at some time in its life, and I'd therefore be very wary of treating any feature on it as being typical. 

 

The chalk boards are an integral part of the body moulding on the old Tri-ang/previous Hornby vans.

 

I always thought their presence and position were constant on the prototypes, but the fact that Hornby are providing them separately suggests their researches may have thrown up variations. (see next post)

 

John

 

I stand corrected, John. Must put my reading glasses on when looking for details!  

[Dunsignalling]

1 minute ago, SRman said:

 

I stand corrected, John. Must put my reading glasses on when looking for details!  

Something I always have to remind myself of, too....

 

John

[The Johnster]

I would expect 2h prices for the old R174 to drop out the bottom as the market becomes flooded with them as soon as they are replaced by the new model.  There really is no comparison; the old model, even more recent productions of it, has the wrong roof profile, raised lines instead of gaps between the planks, wrong buffers, wrong bogies, and mostly moulded detail that should be separate; it is, to be fair, a 70 year old tooling never designed to be marketed to 'serious' modellers (whatever they are).  The opening doors have oversized hinges, and the internal window grilles are crudely painted on in white.  It's done well over the years for what is basically a toy, and could be made into a reasonable 'layout' model by Roxification, but mine is going in the bin once I buy a new one.

 

I've always liked these vans, though, real, ancient Triang, or current Hornby.  They have a lot of character to them and, with the bogies set in a little from the ends, look quite racy!

[Steamport Southport]

8 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Anyone who pays that for one when they can get the new model for only a fiver more (or just a quid if they can get one post-free) wants their head testing IMHO. The new one isn't the old one tarted up, it's an entirely new model, built to 2020s standards, not 1950s.

 

The Churchill Hearse van (logically) had the chalk boards removed - one more reason for buying the new version of that.

 

Photos indicate that some only had one per side when first built but the ex-works pictures on p.76 of Southern Passenger Vans (Gould) show 2319 with one, and 2326, built just a month later, with two.

 

John

 

I know. But good condition boxed Hornby from that era will hold it's value regardless of whether there is a better model.

 

That was my point. I spent ages looking for good "bargain" ones to convert using the Roxey kit. Particularly the versions with the newer bogies as they were a reasonable set that could be used for other things. You weren't getting them less than about £15 even after the new version was announced. Even battered old ones were going for nearly £20. But they aren't dropping in price as people seemingly still want them.

 

I'm not bothering now as I'll just buy a new version eventually.

 

Unfortunately Hatton's don't have any ATM. I could do with something to add to an order to activate the free postage after getting half a Coronation set.

 

 

Jason

[Dunsignalling]

Just now, Steamport Southport said:

 

I know. But good condition boxed Hornby from that era will hold it's value regardless of whether there is a better model.

 

That was my point. I spent ages looking for good "bargain" ones to convert using the Roxey kit. Particularly the versions with the newer bogies as they were a reasonable set that could be used for other things. You weren't getting them less than about £15 even after the new version was announced. Even battered old ones were going for nearly £20. But they aren't dropping in price as people seemingly still want them.

 

I'm not bothering now as I'll just buy a new version eventually.

 

Unfortunately Hatton's don't have any ATM. I could do with something to add to an order to activate the free postage after getting half a Coronation set.

 

 

Jason

I had two pre-ordered from Hatton's. One was cancelled by them as "unable to fulfil" and the other by me in response. Both (and a second crimson one) despatched by Kernow this afternoon. 

 

I therefore wouldn't hold my breath for Hatton's to be getting any more.

 

Incidentally, my old, half-converted blue one (which I acquired boxed for eight quid not that many years ago) has had a reprieve. I've decided to blank off the gangways and turn it into a breakdown tool van.

 

John

[Steamport Southport]

4 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

I had two pre-ordered from Hatton's. One was cancelled by them as "unable to fulfil" and the other by me in response. Both (and a second crimson one) despatched by Kernow this afternoon. 

 

I therefore wouldn't hold my breath for Hatton's to be getting any more.

 

Incidentally, my old, half-converted blue one (which I acquired boxed for eight quid not that many years ago) has had a reprieve. I've decided to blank off the gangways and turn it into a breakdown tool van.

 

John

 

No hurry, I'm not in a desperate hurry for SR NPCCS.

 

People said that about the Coronation though.

 

Got virtually a full set from Hattons now. Just missing the BFK and FK. I'll wait for a few days to see whether they appear.

 

 

Jason