Hornby 2021 - Mk 4 coaching stock with DVTs

[phil-b259]

18 minutes ago, RJennings said:

Puzzled with the Transport for Wales Mk4s - Believe these will only run as 4 car sets (Plus Loco and DVT) so not sure why Hornby are doing what is basically a similar size rake as to that which run with the 91s? Hopefully I am missing something ...

 

 

 

 

 

Probably doing enough coaches for two completely separate sets.

 

ECML based operations obviously use longer sets and the quantity of vehicles being released is for just one set.

[Rhydgaled]

6 hours ago, G-BOAF said:

Will these have close coupling mechanisms fitted as per the sliding door Mk3?

And what about the TSO(E) - I can't see this mentioned/specified....

It mentions coach B (which I think for recent liveries at least is the TSO(E)) but then again there appears to be only 8 Rxxxx numbers for each livery (one with A and B versions) when there should be 10 vehicles for a full rake (9 passenger vehicles plus the DVT makes 10) so maybe the TSO(E) is indeed missing.

 

5 hours ago, JackB95 said:

A very welcome decision by Hornby to announce the Mk4s and DVTs, both in their 91 days and indeed their upcoming 67 days - fantastic.

Very strange that 8 Rxxxx numbers giving nine different vehicles seem to be listed for the TfW mark 4s as well. Since I believe TfW will have 12 coaches and 3 DVTs it is in theroy possible that Hornby are releasing enough to have two full rakes with only one duplicated running number but it seems odd to do that for TfW while modellers wanting the ECML liveries will need to renumber (or omit one coach) to get a full rake without duplication.

[TomScrut]

10 minutes ago, Rhydgaled said:

It mentions coach B (which I think for recent liveries at least is the TSO(E)) but then again there appears to be only 8 Rxxxx numbers for each livery (one with A and B versions) when there should be 10 vehicles for a full rake (9 passenger vehicles plus the DVT makes 10) so maybe the TSO(E) is indeed missing.

 

That works then doesn't it?

 

TSOE, 3 SO, 1 SOD, Kitchen, 1 FO, 1 FOD, 1FO (which I presume is a unique number being at the end) and DVT which means 8 unique numbers and 2 additional on one (the SOs)

[Rhydgaled]

14 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

That works then doesn't it?

 

TSOE, 3 SO, 1 SOD, Kitchen, 1 FO, 1 FOD, 1FO (which I presume is a unique number being at the end) and DVT which means 8 unique numbers and 2 additional on one (the SOs)

Oh, I've fallen into a null trap have I? I make it nine vehicles as follows

1. R40152
2. R40153
3. R40154
4. R40156A
5. R40156B
6. R40191
7. R40159
8. R40160
9. R40161

If there is also a R40156<null> (ie. neither A nor B) then you are correct that there are enough vehicles to make up a rake but I assumed that the product with A and B versions would only be two running numbers not three.

[InterCity80s]

There are three SOs:

 

R40156 - Coach E

R40156A - Coach C

R40156B - Coach D

Edited January 5, 2021 by InterCity80s
Added coach letters

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

6 hours ago, Simon Bendall said:

 

The HST power cars were surrogate DVTs on Mk.3s, they didn't work with Mk.4s.

Very astute point which I only thought about after the event (posted quicker than my brain!)

 

A few observations- if the RRP is £70 that means the RRP for the powered cars is over £200 when taken out of the twin pack!

 

The Mk3s they did last year are WRONG for making up a buffer Class 43+Mk3+Class 91 combo for two reasons- the numbers depicted are not from a set which was used, eight TGS vehicles received buffers and drop head buckeyes for attachment of the Class 91's and 44055 wasn't one of them. Also, the Mk3's released last year feature Central Door Locking which wasn't introduced until 1993, by which time that set was on Cross-Country and the short-lived 91 replacing a HST power car combo had been consigned to history.

 

 

[TomScrut]

23 minutes ago, Rhydgaled said:

If there is also a R40156<null> (ie. neither A nor B)

 

They typically have null A B C etc.

[TomScrut]

8 minutes ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

two reasons

 

Another is their names post date the DVT period I think?

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

1 minute ago, TomScrut said:

 

Another is their names post date the DVT period I think?

I was only really referring to the coaches but if you include the power cars, then yes- the finish on both post-dates DVT use by a long way. This mades the Mk3s and power cars in Intercity from the 2020 catalogue even more non-matching, as the coach formation with its 2xTF and a first class buffet dates that before July 1991 (but with post 1993 CDL!) but the name on 43065 was applied February 1996 (and removed, forever, in November 1998 contrary to Hornby's blurb). Similar problem with the earlier 43078+079 combo, the name on 078 dated that after June 1996 but the numbers on the front of 43079 dated that much earlier. 

 

Goes back to a pet hate of mine, the insistence on modelling untypical named power cars which then requires the application of often impossible to source cast 'plates and makes renumbering far harder. So the release of 43013 with yellow front is even more welcome, they could have fallen down the "let's do the named one" trap once again!

[TomScrut]

30 minutes ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

I was only really referring to the coaches but if you include the power cars, then yes

 

Sorry I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that basically the IC 91, Mk3s and half the HST set making up a surrogate 225 set would be a load of tosh, which is what you were saying but I took you to mean power cars too!

[adb968008]

Hornby often falls into a trap of making enough coaches to make a full rake...

but not recognising that some cannot achieve a full rake.

people will buy what fits their layout, So they buy at least one of each type of coach... resulting in duplicate numbers being left and unique coaches selling out.

 

In this instance Buffet / end coaches will sell, but 1st/2nd will be in abundance.

in the Midland Pullman, the TGS will sell out, and lots of 1st may be spare (though with 2 buffets, most will buy one or the other).

 

 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2021 by adb968008

[TomScrut]

50 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Hornby often falls into a trap of making enough coaches to make a full rake...

but not recognising that some cannot achieve a full rake.

 

Yeah I expect it's not an easy thing to work out, there's that many possibilities that really I don't know where they'd start.

 

I suppose logically the only way to do it is to go from 1 to 9 coaches trying to think how somebody would do it, but there would still be a lot of options.), the only definites would be ends and DVTs. As I said before I am undecided on how to do 5 coaches, but as you say I am having a kitchen and end! There will be people however that once stock dries up may be none the wiser about the end car.

 

I suppose one solution would be to say the average train would be say 5 coaches, so 2 of those would likely be kitchen and end, and so the other 7 numbers would then need to provide the other 3. So roughly speaking making twice as many loco ends, kitchens and DVTs as the rest would *maybe* work if my numbers are anything like right.

 

But I think one example was possibly the other day, I am sure somebody (a dealer) was selling a bundle of SR MK3SDs and the bundle wasn't a viable train prototypically it must have been whatever they wanted rid of.

 

And another one I find unusual is that the 800 test train coaches are lingering. We know there are 500 end car packs out there, do these people not want the coaches? Even collectors would surely want them?

Edited January 5, 2021 by TomScrut

[Covkid]

Worth pointing out that at least one of the surrogate HST power cars worked on the WCML between Euston and Birmingham, maybe Wolverhampton. I think it was 43123 that I saw working with 86/2s and probably 87s too. Not sure if any of the other buffer fitted power cars also worked.

Here is a link to 43123 with 86240 at Birmingham New St

 

                                                                                                                    t DVT 

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

44 minutes ago, Covkid said:

Worth pointing out that at least one of the surrogate HST power cars worked on the WCML between Euston and Birmingham, maybe Wolverhampton. I think it was 43123 that I saw working with 86/2s and probably 87s too. Not sure if any of the other buffer fitted power cars also worked.

Here is a link to 43123 with 86240 at Birmingham New St

 

                                                                                                                    t DVT 

43014 also worked on WCML, and on various wacky formation trials such as blue/grey sleepers (soon back in stock) with Class 91's and a Laboratory Coach which would require scratch building. Sadly, as demonstrated by the photo, both wore the previous livery style during this period so the new release is no use to WCML modellers without a lot of respraying/rebranding.

 

[Ouroborus]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

people will buy what fits their layout

 

in the Midland Pullman, the TGS will sell out, and lots of 1st will be spare (though with 2 buffets, most will buy one or the other).

 

 

 

 

 

Very neatly sums up my Derails pre-order!

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Covkid said:

Worth pointing out that at least one of the surrogate HST power cars worked on the WCML between Euston and Birmingham, maybe Wolverhampton. I think it was 43123 that I saw working with 86/2s and probably 87s too. Not sure if any of the other buffer fitted power cars also worked.

Here is a link to 43123 with 86240 at Birmingham New St

 

                                                                                                                    t DVT 

That ones not on a service train.. its got a mk1 BG behind it.

 

The powers cars didnt go away after the mk4’s arrived, they are still with us.. just about... if LSL had picked this, and hence red buffer beam, it would be getting deceptively closer to an original pullman. I did hear anecdotally these power cars were persistently less reliable after the conversion.

43123 joined Virgin Trains, and later Grand Central, and as 43423  with EMT / EMR until the end of operations in 2020, still with buffer beams.

(not mine/flickr url)

 

you can buy it right now for £289.. just released.. R3944. Featuring 43123 in Intercity livery.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/513686/hornby_r3944_pair_of_class_43_hst_power_cars_43123_and_43065_city_of_edinburgh_in_intercity_s/stockdetail.aspx

 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2021 by adb968008

[RyanN91]

I have had to view the entire 2021 range from other websites! Wow not only are we getting new BR MK4 coaches and not only are we getting a new BR MK4 DVT, but we are also getting a BR Class 43 HST DVT! thank you Hornby! 

[BR(S)]

Class 89 working with HST DVT:

 

 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2021 by BR(S)

[RyanN91]

4 minutes ago, BR(S) said:

Class 89 working with HST DVT:

 

 

 

 

Wow amazing photos! thanks for these! 

[Ian Fisher]

The Sleepers are I guess being released to make up the test trains as in the pics above.

[YesTor]

3 hours ago, TomScrut said:

And another one I find unusual is that the 800 test train coaches are lingering. We know there are 500 end car packs out there, do these people not want the coaches? Even collectors would surely want them?

 

I think much comes down to timing.  Had Hornby have released the coaches at the same time as the driving cars - and at the time when the Hornby 800 was the exciting new-kid-on-the block - and I'd happily bet a month's salary that they would have all sold out as quickly as the driving cars did at the time.  Wait 2 years (or maybe it's more?) before releasing the coaches and at least two things have happened:  i.) there are far more exciting models of other prototypes either on/about to hit the market and as a result the 800 ain't quite occupying the limelight it once was... and also perhaps as a result ii.) people's attention has moved on...

 

I too yearned for the coaches, but by the time they actually arrived I felt, and still feel, pretty lacklustre toward them...

 

Something about irons striking when hot...? 

 

Al

[adb968008]

7 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

That works then doesn't it?

 

TSOE, 3 SO, 1 SOD, Kitchen, 1 FO, 1 FOD, 1FO (which I presume is a unique number being at the end) and DVT which means 8 unique numbers and 2 additional on one (the SOs)

Dont know about you but my layout is full of these.
Many of them little.

 

Edited January 6, 2021 by adb968008

[69843]

9 hours ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

Very astute point which I only thought about after the event (posted quicker than my brain!)

 

A few observations- if the RRP is £70 that means the RRP for the powered cars is over £200 when taken out of the twin pack!

 

The Mk3s they did last year are WRONG for making up a buffer Class 43+Mk3+Class 91 combo for two reasons- the numbers depicted are not from a set which was used, eight TGS vehicles received buffers and drop head buckeyes for attachment of the Class 91's and 44055 wasn't one of them. Also, the Mk3's released last year feature Central Door Locking which wasn't introduced until 1993, by which time that set was on Cross-Country and the short-lived 91 replacing a HST power car combo had been consigned to history.

Long shot, do you know the numbers of Mk3s used for the testing?

I picked up the full Mk3 range with the intention to make these very trains using 43123 from the other pack (and also to swap it in behind a Class 90/Mk3 DVT, and the Class 89). Whilst I fully accept the central door locking being wrong and other things being wrong for a WCML rake, and I have plans to renumber the TGS to 44056, I'd be interested to at least give the Mk3s some correct numbers to run with the 91/HST.

As I model British more as a break from Australian these days, I can accept a bit of compromise but wouldn't mind doing it sort of properly. Incidentally how hard would it be to backdate the cars to pre-CDL?

[Legend]

It is difficult to plot demand . Remember there are cheap skates like me that are quite happily running their old VTEC 91s that only came with 2 Mk4 TSOs and maybe would look to buy a first and restaurant to replace my clumsily painted ones . 

[Class 158 productions]

Not an electric modeller, but a full fully detailed 91 set at full chat will be something amazing to behold. I agree on the dummy hst price point, as another comment said, it’s rrp is £200 cheaper than the twin pack