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Hornby 2021 - Mk 4 coaching stock with DVTs


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19 minutes ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

They are standard ETH jumpers on the front of 43014+43123, and the reason for their installation and through ETH wiring was to allow an ETH fitted loco (such as the Class 86) to go onto the front of the train in the event of a TDM failure and still therm the train. This was not needed on the Class 91 operation as the only vehicle in that consist capable of keeping the passengers warm/cool/supplied with tea was the Class 43, so even with the 91 on top of the power car you'd not plug anything in.

 

HSTs have a 36 way cable but there is not one under the nose cone, you cannot make HSTs "talk" to each other through the nose cones so if one needs to haul another you'd isolate the E70 brake controllers on the set not being driven from and run as if loco hauled at loco hauled speed maximums. There is a socket under the nose cone for shore supply but that's all it does, allows you to "plug in" and shut the engines down but still keep the coaches and auxiliaries alive.

 

 

Presumably the ETH jumpers on the front of 43014+43123 would only be for use with loco-hauled ETH heat stock and not an HST rake with the different electric train heating.

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1 hour ago, GordonC said:

 

Presumably the ETH jumpers on the front of 43014+43123 would only be for use with loco-hauled ETH heat stock and not an HST rake with the different electric train heating.

Correct. It's effectively through wiring allowing a loco to heat a train with one of them in the middle. They did tap off the ETH to run a rectifier thing in the former luggage area to keep the power car auxiliaries and headlights working but think of it like the BG behind it in terms of ETH need and capability!

 

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On 05/01/2021 at 19:10, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

The Mk3s they did last year are WRONG for making up a buffer Class 43+Mk3+Class 91 combo for two reasons- the numbers depicted are not from a set which was used, eight TGS vehicles received buffers and drop head buckeyes for attachment of the Class 91's and 44055 wasn't one of them. Also, the Mk3's released last year feature Central Door Locking which wasn't introduced until 1993, by which time that set was on Cross-Country and the short-lived 91 replacing a HST power car combo had been consigned to history.

 

Have Hornby EVER released a scale-length mark 3 TS, TF or 3-window buffet WITHOUT Central Door Locking (CDL) lights? Does their tooling allow them to do that? The recent GWR train set one (the only Hornby mark 3 I have) appears to have the moulded detail for the CDL lights but these have not been decorated as such (they are just painted the same green as the rest of the body). If Hornby were going to produce it without painting the CDL lights orange you'd think they'd use a body tooling without them if they had the option of doing so.

 

On 05/01/2021 at 21:10, adb968008 said:

Hornby often falls into a trap of making enough coaches to make a full rake...

but not recognising that some cannot achieve a full rake.


people will buy what fits their layout, So they buy at least one of each type of coach... resulting in duplicate numbers being left and unique coaches selling out.

 

In this instance Buffet / end coaches will sell, but 1st/2nd will be in abundance.

in the Midland Pullman, the TGS will sell out, and lots of 1st may be spare (though with 2 buffets, most will buy one or the other).

 

Other than serious modellers or rail fans I'm not sure the need for TSO(E) or TGS will necessary be appreciated. If I recall correctly, for many years I was completely unaware that these vehicles existed so at the time if I had a layout big enough for a 2+5 set (but no more) I would have been perfectly happy with a TFO, a buffet and 3 TSO vehicles with no TGS or TSO(E). Thus those 'end vehicles' are likely to sell slightly less well than the buffet and DVT. Couldn't Hornby book production slots with the factories for another batch of coaches to follow a while after the intial release but with the ratio of coach types / running numbers in the follow-up batch not specified until sales figures for the first batch start coming in?

 

On 06/01/2021 at 00:45, BR(S) said:

Class 89 working with HST DVT:

 

89001 and friend

 

 

Was the HST DVT broken or was the 89 incompatible with the DVT since all your pics show the 89 coupled to the power car and not at the other end. Also, I note that there appears to be a mark 1 or mark 2 at the rear on the last pic (retained above), might that be a barrier vehicle with a normal TGS used instead of the buffer-fitted version?

 

12 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

There's a bird stuck in that grille!

 

 

I think the bird was there (breifly) on 91119 when it was restored to Swallow livery recently. Within a few weeks it had disapeared again.

 

On 05/01/2021 at 19:17, TomScrut said:

 

They typically have null A B C etc.

Ah, ok fair enough. In that case they have enough product codes for a full ECML set, still dubious about the TfW offering though.

 

3 hours ago, Global said:

Thanks for the replies above, I’ve been looking at some videos on YouTube and the formation in InterCity days appears to have been 8 coaches, at least at the beginning, and lettering for for First Class seems to be G/H etc

 

TSOE

TSO (one TSO likely to be TSOD)

TSO

TSO

TSO

RFM

FO

FO


Hornby ‘seem’ to be incorrectly producing a current day formation but in IC livery, as the Buffet should be First Class and not standard and they’re also showing lettering up to L/M which doesn’t seem to be correct. 

 

 

I may be talking rubish here; I'm certainly not old enough to have memories of the early days (and indeed I expect the only IC225 I ever saw in Swallow livery before the real things had received GNER livery was my train set one), but for some reason I think they were ordered as 8 coaches but this was soon increased to 9. I read somewhere that there were also a number of 'Pullman' sets to start with (same 8 or 9 coaches, but two of them were buffet cars rather than the normal one buffet). The 'Pullman' sets may have lasted until the Mallard refurb, but I've no idea.

 

As for the coach lettering, the same range of letters seems to have been applied across the range announcement, even the TfW set(s):

 

On 16/12/2020 at 12:56, AY Mod said:

Slide151.JPG

 

Note at the top it lists coaches B, C, D, E, F, H, K, L and M, plus the DVT. If we assume Hornby will be producing two full TfW rakes, rather than a fictional 9-car TfW set, then there should be two DVTs (not one), two kitchens (not one) , four SOs (not five) and two FOs (not three) and so the announcement is incorrect here*. If so, the same mistake has probably been made with the Swallow liveried rake.

 

* Also, there is only one SO with an accessible toilet and one FO with an accessible toilet listed. Two TfW rakes will either need two of one and none of the other, or two of both (I'm not sure whether the TfW sets have a first class accessible toilet or a standard class one, or both).

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1 hour ago, Rhydgaled said:

 I may be talking rubish here; I'm certainly not old enough to have memories of the early days (and indeed I expect the only IC225 I ever saw in Swallow livery before the real things had received GNER livery was my train set one), but for some reason I think they were ordered as 8 coaches but this was soon increased to 9. I read somewhere that there were also a number of 'Pullman' sets to start with (same 8 or 9 coaches, but two of them were buffet cars rather than the normal one buffet). The 'Pullman' sets may have lasted until the Mallard refurb, but I've no idea.

There's a video of a "Yorkshire Pullman" set with two buffet cars on YouTube: 

 

 

 

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In 1988/89 there was two HST sets with 2 catering vehicles in, and 1 extra 1st, 2 less second.

 

NL22 41099 41041 40501 41100 40711 42198 42199 44063

HT35 41153 41066 40511 41154 40741 42205 42210 44083

 

I have these named as “Tyne Tees Pullman” and “Yorkshire Pullman”.

 

A move from mk3 to mk4 makes sense, though HT35 was still there in 1991

Edited by adb968008
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20 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

Possibly related, but I thought the stainless light surrounds and grille happened at the Mallard refurbs too but the pic they feature is in IC. The refurbs all happened in GNER colours didn't they?

Re the reinforced (non Swallow) grill, this happened in late Intercity days due to the original grills not holding up to bird strikes etc. I remember an article in Modern Railways about it. I'm very sure it was pre-privitisation as I remember thinking after GNER came in 'good thing they don't have to worry what to do about the intercity bird as the grill design was previously changed'. So in a nutshell, way before the 91/1 or GNER Mallard refurb.

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4 hours ago, Rhydgaled said:

Also, there is only one SO with an accessible toilet and one FO with an accessible toilet listed. Two TfW rakes will either need two of one and none of the other, or two of both (I'm not sure whether the TfW sets have a first class accessible toilet or a standard class one, or both).

 

A selection of photos Ive found on Flickr suggests that one set TfW is made of coaches B,C,H and L. Trouble is, Hornby havent really said which of the SOs are the end one. Is there a certain FO that should be next to the DVT?

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1 hour ago, G-BOAF said:

Re the reinforced (non Swallow) grill, this happened in late Intercity days due to the original grills not holding up to bird strikes etc. I remember an article in Modern Railways about it. I'm very sure it was pre-privitisation as I remember thinking after GNER came in 'good thing they don't have to worry what to do about the intercity bird as the grill design was previously changed'. So in a nutshell, way before the 91/1 or GNER Mallard refurb.

I have photos of 91s pre GNER with the silver grill, I also have a feeling that the 91s lost the bodyside swallows during the shadow privatisation period/GNER era pre repaints. 

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7 hours ago, Rhydgaled said:

 

Have Hornby EVER released a scale-length mark 3 TS, TF or 3-window buffet WITHOUT Central Door Locking (CDL) lights? Does their tooling allow them to do that? The recent GWR train set one (the only Hornby mark 3 I have) appears to have the moulded detail for the CDL lights but these have not been decorated as such (they are just painted the same green as the rest of the body). If Hornby were going to produce it without painting the CDL lights orange you'd think they'd use a body tooling without them if they had the option of doing so.

 

 

 

 

 

 I read somewhere very recently that someone said these are ex Airfix..

 

Odd that they they had existed without a release and for the only addition Hornby would make is the door lights! not having the option to just alter the tools!

 

 

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9 hours ago, Rhydgaled said:

I think the bird was there (briefly) on 91119 when it was restored to Swallow livery recently. Within a few weeks it had disappeared again.

 

This is correct - the Swallow was removed when the frost grille was fitted. Considering it was snow that killed 19 in the previous winter, they really didn't want it happening again! 

 

Cheers,

  60800

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4 hours ago, Ian Fisher said:

 I read somewhere very recently that someone said these are ex Airfix..

 

Odd that they they had existed without a release and for the only addition Hornby would make is the door lights! not having the option to just alter the tools!

 

I would say that would be speculation based purely on the use of the Aifix style coupling mounts currently on the bogies.

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4 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:

 

Got any pics of it? 

Not sure if you can repost pictures (of the picture) would it be copyright infringement? I am sure Hornby will update their website in due course.

(may be ok if you quote the source thinking about it but Hornby would probably rather you bought the catalogue!

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1 hour ago, Markwj said:

Not sure if you can repost pictures (of the picture) would it be copyright infringement? I am sure Hornby will update their website in due course.

(may be ok if you quote the source thinking about it but Hornby would probably rather you bought the catalogue!

 

With the current state of affairs, if I bought the catalogue, it would be another 3 months until I even got it at best. 

 

As for copyright infringement, whilst that may be an issue, it doesn't look like Hornby mind it. Hornby themselves are actively re-posting images from various customers who uploaded images of their catalogue on Instagram. 

 

But if it is an issue here, then so be it. No harm in asking. 

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15 hours ago, CazRail said:

 

A selection of photos Ive found on Flickr suggests that one set TfW is made of coaches B,C,H and L. Trouble is, Hornby havent really said which of the SOs are the end one. Is there a certain FO that should be next to the DVT?

 

20 hours ago, Rhydgaled said:

As for the coach lettering, the same range of letters seems to have been applied across the range announcement, even the TfW set(s):

 

Note at the top it lists coaches B, C, D, E, F, H, K, L and M, plus the DVT. If we assume Hornby will be producing two full TfW rakes, rather than a fictional 9-car TfW set, then there should be two DVTs (not one), two kitchens (not one) , four SOs (not five) and two FOs (not three) and so the announcement is incorrect here*. If so, the same mistake has probably been made with the Swallow liveried rake.

 

* Also, there is only one SO with an accessible toilet and one FO with an accessible toilet listed. Two TfW rakes will either need two of one and none of the other, or two of both (I'm not sure whether the TfW sets have a first class accessible toilet or a standard class one, or both).

 

 

Not totally au fait with mk4s but I believe they are bar coupled with just drophead couplers on the DVT and the TSO(E). To make up the TfW sets I guess they have removed the unwanted vehicles then bar coupled the remaining four vehicles back together with the TSO(E) at the loco end of the rakes. You would expect the passenger carrying vehicles to be relettered A B and C for TfW and maybe the ultimately will when they get them into passenger service.

 

Did GC  get round to relettering their 7 car rakes, or did they just drop the missing letters ?  

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Regarding end views, the attached may prove of some help, as they were taken at Neville Hill.

 

As for TfW, looking at my notes from earlier in the year, the formation should be:

 

TfW Class 67

TfW Mk4 Standard B (SOE)

TfW Mk4 Standard C (SO)

TfW Mk4 First/Kitchen H (RFM)

TfW Mk4 Open 1st L - Accessible Toilet (FOD)

TfW Mk4 DVT (DVT)

 

Of course, that was last summer, and a lot has happened since! Also found these notes on formations:


Twelve refurbished Mark 4 carriages for the Holyhead to Cardiff Central Premier Service by the end of 2019, to replace the Mark 3 carriages, plus 3 DVT.

Need work internally as TfW say 19 first class seats, assumption is Coach H will be amended to make the seating area 1st and the buffet closed with trolley only in standard, or turned so that it is at the standard end.

 

Set 1 Formation noted as:
82226 DVT
11323 Coach L
10325 Coach H
12454 Coach C
12225 Coach B

67008

 

Set 2 noted as:

67025
12219 Coach B
12447 Coach C
10328 Coach H
11324 Coach L
82229 DVT

 

Class 67 hauled, taken from former ECML Sets:
BN23     11423     11323     11292     10325     12318     12455     12456     12454     12225 
BN24     11424     11324     11293     10328     12319     12403     12425     12447     12219 
 

 

Mk4 TOE Vestibule End.jpeg

Mk4 TOE Vestibule Close Up.jpeg

Edited by Islesy
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21 hours ago, Rhydgaled said:

  

 

Have Hornby EVER released a scale-length mark 3 TS, TF or 3-window buffet WITHOUT Central Door Locking (CDL) lights? Does their tooling allow them to do that? The recent GWR train set one (the only Hornby mark 3 I have) appears to have the moulded detail for the CDL lights but these have not been decorated as such (they are just painted the same green as the rest of the body). If Hornby were going to produce it without painting the CDL lights orange you'd think they'd use a body tooling without them if they had the option of doing so.

 

Was the HST DVT broken or was the 89 incompatible with the DVT since all your pics show the 89 coupled to the power car and not at the other end. Also, I note that there appears to be a mark 1 or mark 2 at the rear on the last pic (retained above), might that be a barrier vehicle with a normal TGS used instead of the buffer-fitted version?

 

I may be talking rubish here; I'm certainly not old enough to have memories of the early days (and indeed I expect the only IC225 I ever saw in Swallow livery before the real things had received GNER livery was my train set one), but for some reason I think they were ordered as 8 coaches but this was soon increased to 9. I read somewhere that there were also a number of 'Pullman' sets to start with (same 8 or 9 coaches, but two of them were buffet cars rather than the normal one buffet). The 'Pullman' sets may have lasted until the Mallard refurb, but I've no idea.

 

 

Answering a few points at once here!

 

The Hornby scale length TS, TF and TRFB only ever came with Central Door Locking, so on the blue/grey ones its there but not highlighted but as its moulded on its clearly visible. As the TGS is Limby it doesn't have CDL so they just print it on when replicating a post CDL model.

 

Re the Class 89 formation- nothing is broken- when the Class 89 first showed up it had no TDM fitted, so it ran around at Peterborough each time. Don't forget it doesn't need to ETH the stock as the Class 43 is taking care of that, and back then they could use any old scratch rake of whatever Bounds Green could cobble together and initially that wouldn't have included any modified TGS vehicles so they would need to bung a BG or something with drop head buckeyes on the other end for the Class 89 to hook up to.

 

I suspect they may have put some early 225 rakes into service with 8 coaches but I'm sure that by the full launch and services through to Edinburgh they were all 9 coaches, I recall that being one of the selling points vs the HST and I think John Prideaux said the new trains would have the extra coach at the BBC Television Railwatch launch in 1989, I'm feeling like the ninth passenger coach was ordered after the initial fleet based on securing more funding. The use of differently formed sets with more First Class and/or and additional caterer was a hang over from HST days when certain sets were dedicated to Pullman workings (and they had to be careful to keep them on diagram and not let them wander off to Glasgow or somewhere that maximum standard class capacity would be needed). They later standardised and just ran more Pullmans with standard formations to serve demand allowing them to have a common fleet across all trains. Also fact fans might like to know that the existence of then surplus caterers and first class vehicles allowed them to quickly reform the set involved in the Hatfield derailment as it was only the "service vehicle" (as they were then known) and vehicles rearward that were lost in that accident.

 

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35 minutes ago, James90012 said:

Very much looking forward to the MK4s, I'm now all-in for a GNER set. Would have preferred a Mallard set but as I'm modelling the WCML anyway, it's neither here nor there!

Paint 'em black and have a "what if..." formation with a black Class 90. Two of the Grand Cancel sets have shifted back out of Wembley yard to the wheel lathe side at Stonebridge for no obvious reason in the last 48 hours.

 

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I'm also looking forward to the GNER set, though like many, would have preferred the Mallard set with red doors etc.

 

Does anyone know when the big WiFi domes were installed on the roof of the DVT? I think it was pre-Mallard refurb. Hopefully Hornby tool the model to allow for both with/without dome.

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