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Hornby 2021 - Maunsell dining saloon thirds and composites


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Yes, the leading Saloon in some of the photos appears to be an SECR vehicle, there is a pair of LSWR 'Ironclads' in one of the photos and a 'Thanet' - probably Composite' - coupled to the only 'standard' Maunsell shown - probably a Composite Brake.

Sorry, John, the 'Nondescripts' were effectively equivalents to the earlier saloons, too - luckily two of these lovely vehicles survive on the KESR ............ let's hope the KESR can survive all these lockdowns.

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On 05/01/2021 at 16:26, adrianmc said:

These Third Class Dining Saloons were built in 1927 to Diagram 2652 and numbered 7864-9 with Hornby now producing 7864 and 7867 in fully lined SR Olive Green.

 

They only lasted with this classification until 1930 when they were reclassed as Open Thirds and subsequently renumbered 1363-8

 

On 05/01/2021 at 17:20, adrianmc said:

Any easier option - but only if modelling post 1932 - Hornby could release an unlined SR Olive Green version of this new Third Class Dining Saloon / Open Third and number it in the range 1363-8 to make a suitable pairing with one of their existing 1932 Kitchen Dining Firsts in unlined SR Olive Green?

 

On 05/01/2021 at 18:57, adrianmc said:

 

Yes correct - Hornby as far as I'm aware have produced Kitchen Dining Firsts to two diagrams - Diag 2656 and Diag 2651. 

 

One of these - Diag 2651 - is on the face of it the one required for the pairing with this new Third Class Dining Saloon - but unfortunately it is not!

 

The Southern Railway produced several batches of Kitchen Dining Firsts to this diagram but they were not all the same when originally built - the diagram being amended to reflect the changes as each batch and subsequent modifications occurred! The batches were:

 

4x Diag 2651 - Nos 7858-63 - Eastleigh 05/27

4x Diag 2651 - Nos 7939-42 - Eastleigh 07-12/29

16x Diag 2651 - Nos 7943-58 - Eastleigh 05-09/30

 

The main differences were with the first batch. As built these lacked the already mentioned transverse vestibule with external doors at the Dining Saloon end and when compared to the other two batches had a smaller window in the kitchen adjacent to the double doors. Between 1935 and 1939 these coaches from the first batch were altered in that the transverse vestibules were added to match the others. However the smaller kitchen window remained.

 

Hornby's model is of this post 1935-39 modified first batch Diag 2651 with the added vestibule but retaining the smaller window.

 

Due to this smaller window - which wouldn't be correct for the 2nd/3rd batches - the number of the released Hornby BR (S) coach was changed from S7946S (3rd batch) to S7861S (modified 1st batch).

 

It is because of this combination of added vestibule and small kitchen window that the existing Hornby coach tooling cannot accurately represent a batch 1 Diag 2651 Kitchen Dining First as built thus denying us the opportunity of having a fully lined SR Olive Green 1927 Kitchen First/Dining Saloon Third pair.

 

Here's hoping!

 

PS Diag 2656 is virtually identical to Diag 2651 batches 2 and 3 (vestibule and large kitchen window) with the main changes reflecting internal kitchen arrangements and external stove vents. 

So, for 1938, would it be appropriate to pair R4816A (Maunsell Kitchen Dining First Coach number 7865*) with R4833 (Maunsell Open Third Coach), and renumber the latter from 1375 to 1365?

Or are there other differences between the reclassified third class diners and other open thirds?

 

* from the numbering, I assume that this is to Diag. 2656

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14 minutes ago, truffy said:

 

 

So, for 1938, would it be appropriate to pair R4816A (Maunsell Kitchen Dining First Coach number 7865*) with R4833 (Maunsell Open Third Coach), and renumber the latter from 1375 to 1365?

Or are there other differences between the reclassified third class diners and other open thirds?

 

* from the numbering, I assume that this is to Diag. 2656

No, you cannot renumber 1375 to 1365. The diner third opens had eight seating bays, 64 seats,

and the ordinary general service open thirds like 1375 had seven bays, 56 seats. and the two types

are quite different externally as well.

It may have been more useful if Hornby had produced a model of the 1935 or 1936 TO's

instead of the diner third of which there were only six. ( not moaning, I will have a composite

diner in it's final form. )

 

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22 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Yes, but the post I was replying too questioned why Hornby are producing the older, less numerous Third Dining Saloon rather than those newer coaches and (IMHO) the fact that many will want models that match the fully lined ones they already have is as likely an explanation as any. 

 

The 1935/36 stock (to the best of my knowledge) carried the simplified lining from new. 

 

John

The post you were replying to welcomed the new models but stated other types were more numerous, at no point did I mention liveries ...

 

... but as you mention it, personally I would like to see the lined Maunsell green produced as this is very hard to reproduce satisfactorily and Hornby have made a very good job of this on earlier releases. Plain green is easy!

 

Glenn

 

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3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

All the Maunsells are TKs, none of the rest are Maunsells, which is the topic under discussion.

 

 

Perhaps I should have made my original comment clearer, in hoping for more loose stock I did mean all SR stock not just Maunsells 

 

But back to diners!

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2 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Yes, the leading Saloon in some of the photos appears to be an SECR vehicle, there is a pair of LSWR 'Ironclads' in one of the photos and a 'Thanet' - probably Composite' - coupled to the only 'standard' Maunsell shown - probably a Composite Brake.

Sorry, John, the 'Nondescripts' were effectively equivalents to the earlier saloons, too - luckily two of these lovely vehicles survive on the KESR ............ let's hope the KESR can survive all these lockdowns.

Forgot about the Nondescripts! Have ridden on one at the KESR, too....

 

John

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On 07/01/2021 at 10:16, mattingleycustom said:

The post you were replying to welcomed the new models but stated other types were more numerous, at no point did I mention liveries ...

 

... but as you mention it, personally I would like to see the lined Maunsell green produced as this is very hard to reproduce satisfactorily and Hornby have made a very good job of this on earlier releases. Plain green is easy!

 

Glenn

 

Agreed. You didn't mention liveries directly, but the alternatives you cited were too new to carry full lining.

 

My intention was to offer a possible explanation as to why Hornby picked a coach that did.

 

John

 

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On 07/01/2021 at 10:20, trevor7598 said:

No, you cannot renumber 1375 to 1365. The diner third opens had eight seating bays, 64 seats,

and the ordinary general service open thirds like 1375 had seven bays, 56 seats. and the two types

are quite different externally as well.

It may have been more useful if Hornby had produced a model of the 1935 or 1936 TO's

instead of the diner third of which there were only six. ( not moaning, I will have a composite

diner in it's final form. )

 


Thank you for that insight. It appears, however, that I’d overlooked @adrianmc’s earlier post:

 

On 05/01/2021 at 20:36, adrianmc said:

 

 

Yes that is another way to go for the post 1932 scene - instead of a renumbered/liveried Dining Third there is the prototypical option of coupling a 1930 Diag 2005 Open Saloon 3rd Class to the kitchen end of a Kitchen Dining First. Hornby have produced at least two examples in fully lined SR Olive Green - 1400 (R4537) and 1375 (R4833).

 


Which suggests that I can get away with pairing R4816A and R4833 without the need to renumber. This should be suitable for the late ‘30s, I think. 
 

Update: it appears that others are following this discussion. Both first/dining cars at TMC had gone by the time I came to place my order. Fortunately, I was able to nab the last at KMRC. Phew!

Edited by truffy
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ordered two of the olive lined ones. together with the 1927 build kitchen/dining cars they were stated for London - Bournemouth and Portsmouth

services and also Waterloo -Exeter, [ Atlantic Coast Express] at Exeter those two were detached.

Hopefully Hornby will ever release the Kitchen/ dining 1927 build versions, than i can complete two 12 coaches ACE trains, but for now

happy with these two coming, we are nearly there now:preved:

Edited by Cor-onGRT4
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1 hour ago, Fredo said:

Hi, I am looking forward to getting the model of Dining Saloon 7841 which still survives on the Bluebell Railway. Will the model be in BR Southern Green livery?
thanks Fred

 

On 16/12/2020 at 12:58, AY Mod said:

 

 

 

Slide146.JPG

The info on Page 1 of this thread says "BR" and "Era 5", which Hornby define as "Late British Railways1956-1968", so I assume BR(SR) Green.   

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1 hour ago, Fredo said:

Hi, I am looking forward to getting the model of Dining Saloon 7841 which still survives on the Bluebell Railway. Will the model be in BR Southern Green livery?
thanks Fred

Graham Muzz has it listed as this on his round up of Southern releases 

 

R40031 – BR(s) Maunsell Dining Saloon Third / Composite No. S7841S to Diagram 2658 in BR(s) Green. This coach is preserved on the Bluebell Railway. [Q4]

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1 hour ago, 3rd Rail Exile said:

 

The info on Page 1 of this thread says "BR" and "Era 5", which Hornby define as "Late British Railways1956-1968", so I assume BR(SR) Green.   

I don't know how much reliance can be placed on Hornby's eras though.

image.png.ae4d976ae9f3848a3cd26a33d8dfb9df.png

image.png.8022cc431fd34a7ca531aa4f8097f377.png

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/sr-maunsell-kitchen-dining-first-tbc.html

;)

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Well, at least the reference in the largest letters is correct, even if they messed up the small print.

 

A victim of catalogue complier cut-and-paste, no doubt.

 

Trouble is, even when it's applied correctly, the Era system is very approximate. Era 3 covers 24 years, but the vehicle pictured is unlikely to have looked like that for more than ten of them and didn't even exist for the first five!

 

John

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On 07/01/2021 at 08:48, Wickham Green too said:

Yes, the leading Saloon in some of the photos appears to be an SECR vehicle, there is a pair of LSWR 'Ironclads' in one of the photos and a 'Thanet' - probably Composite' - coupled to the only 'standard' Maunsell shown - probably a Composite Brake.

Sorry, John, the 'Nondescripts' were effectively equivalents to the earlier saloons, too - luckily two of these lovely vehicles survive on the KESR ............ let's hope the KESR can survive all these lockdowns.

 

We're ok so far, but thanks for the concern.

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One of the six dining saloons was destroyed in an incident away from the Southern Region.

Sheffield I believe, when a light engine ran into the set it was in.

Unfortunately I can't find the magazine article about the incident, but remember an image

of the coach with the end stoved in.

 

Can anyone help?.

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I have tried to capture and round up the use of catering vehicles on the Southern related to the Hornby releases here https://grahammuz.com/2021/01/13/talking-stock-39-catering-for-southern-travellers-by-Hornby/ 

 

Thanks as always to Mike King as a valued source of information.

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Diagram 2658 RCO No. 7844 was written off at Sheffield Victoria in April 1954 while working in the Poole-Newcastle or Newcastle-Poole (I can't presently remember which way it was going).  I do have the article but can't find it at the moment.  I'm fairly sure it was in Back Track (though it was possibly Steam Days).  After that one of the four Diag 2659 RKBs had to make do with a standard Diag 2005 or 2007 TO as it's partner.

 

It's a common misconception that only the first six Diag 2651 RFs had the narrow kitchen window.  I imagine the source of this is the note on Mike King's drawing of an RF.  In actuality the 1929 and 1930 Diag 2651s also had the narrow window which is apparent on photos of 7940 (of 1929) and 7952 (of 1930) I have.

 

Chris KT  

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8 hours ago, chris45lsw said:

Diagram 2658 RCO No. 7844 was written off at Sheffield Victoria in April 1954 while working in the Poole-Newcastle or Newcastle-Poole (I can't presently remember which way it was going).  I do have the article but can't find it at the moment.  I'm fairly sure it was in Back Track (though it was possibly Steam Days).  After that one of the four Diag 2659 RKBs had to make do with a standard Diag 2005 or 2007 TO as it's partner.

 

It's a common misconception that only the first six Diag 2651 RFs had the narrow kitchen window.  I imagine the source of this is the note on Mike King's drawing of an RF.  In actuality the 1929 and 1930 Diag 2651s also had the narrow window which is apparent on photos of 7940 (of 1929) and 7952 (of 1930) I have.

 

Chris KT  

Many thanks for that confirmation Chris. I knew I wasn't dreaming about one of  the RCO's

meeting it's end away from the Southern Region. Like you I have the article somewhere,

' British Railways Illustrated ' rings a bell. 

Hornby note, don't produce 7844 in post 1956 BR(S) green!. 

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On 06/01/2021 at 21:57, Wickham Green too said:

Loose coaches on the Southern ? ................. take a look at Gould's Maunsell Coaches book and you'll find very few apart from Corridor Thirds, Open Thirds and more Corridor Thirds !

 

On 06/01/2021 at 22:10, Oldddudders said:

Indeed. We are told that even if there was a fault on only one coach, the whole set would be TOS until it was rectified. Plenty of loose BCKs, of course. 

 

Did this also apply later? I'm thinking of the upcoming(ish) Bachmann Bulleid carriages, and was considering a rake of the C&C 15" carriages with one swapped out for a BR(S) Green 10", to add a little variety.

Will that work, or will it irk?

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1 hour ago, truffy said:

 

 

Did this also apply later? I'm thinking of the upcoming(ish) Bachmann Bulleid carriages, and was considering a rake of the C&C 15" carriages with one swapped out for a BR(S) Green 10", to add a little variety.

Will that work, or will it irk?

A loose open or corridor third/second attached to the end of a set for strengthening purposes would be much more likely/convincing.

 

John

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Hello truffy and everyone

 

If you are looking for 'variety', a photo on page 83 of Mike King's book, Southern Vans & Coaches in Colour, shows Crimson & Cream 5-Set No.849 formed with the Composite as the second vehicle as opposed to in the centre.

 

Brian

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