pete_mcfarlane Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 (edited) It's that time of year again when the fare increases are announced, so here's a slightly dubious article from the BBC on how one man's season ticket has risen by £12,000 since 1997. Complete with the usual rent-a-quotes from the unions. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55323345 What the article fails to mention is that £15k is the cost of a first class season ticket from Rugby. I guess the increase in price of a standard class ticket wouldn't have made such a good headline. Edited December 16, 2020 by pete_mcfarlane fixed typo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted December 16, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 16, 2020 It clearly mentions it’s first class, to ensure he gets a seat and can work on the train. Not in the headline, but yes, obviously they’ve looked for a good headline. Failing to be too outraged. Sod paying £15k a year though, I’d risk standing occasionally. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 The BBC article does mention that the price does apply to a first class season and it also quotes the person as saying he can afford it! It seems he is complaining because others might not. I'm not in favour of subsidised season tickets because it just encourages people to live that further out. Essentially my taxes go, in part, to subsidising their comfortable lifestyle. I'm happy to help people who need help, no problem with that at all, but I do object to subsidising the affluent. They can and should stand on their own two feet. 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ikcdab Posted December 16, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 16, 2020 2 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said: The BBC article does mention that the price does apply to a first class season and it also quotes the person as saying he can afford it! It seems he is complaining because others might not. I'm not in favour of subsidised season tickets because it just encourages people to live that further out. Essentially my taxes go, in part, to subsidising their comfortable lifestyle. I'm happy to help people who need help, no problem with that at all, but I do object to subsidising the affluent. They can and should stand on their own two feet. Mmm. Not sure. Some people have to live further out because they cannot afford the ridiculous London house prices, either buying or rental. I'm pretty sure the affluent do stand on their own two feet, I wouldn't want to pay his tax bill etc. It's the hallmark of a good and supportive society that we all pay in and then we all benefit.... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted December 16, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 16, 2020 I would support more tax efficient/salary sacrifice season ticket purchases, would soften the blow a little. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 And of course they'll look for someone who lives a long way away. Such articles about train fare increases rarely seem to mention that the season ticket covers 200+ working days travel (plus the benefit of 'free' trips to London at weekends), or calculate the cost of a season ticket on a cost/mile basis. Interestingly, several reports I've seen today have said that this is the first above-inflation increase for 8 years. I can't remember any articles in recent years regarding below-inflation increases..... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 I suppose you could raise the counter argument that his salary has not increased as he would have wished for over the time period. On the other hand I would be over the moon to know that I had a job paying that sort of salary going forward into 2021. Bernard 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted December 17, 2020 Author Share Posted December 17, 2020 9 hours ago, njee20 said: It clearly mentions it’s first class, to ensure he gets a seat and can work on the train. Not in the headline, but yes, obviously they’ve looked for a good headline. Failing to be too outraged. It didn't when I read the article last night, but it does now........ 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caradoc Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 13 hours ago, RJS1977 said: Such articles about train fare increases rarely seem to mention that the season ticket covers 200+ working days travel (plus the benefit of 'free' trips to London at weekends), or calculate the cost of a season ticket on a cost/mile basis. And with a First Class season, if he uses Avanti West Coast services he gets free food and drink too. And use of the First Class lounge at Euston. 3 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said: t didn't when I read the article last night, but it does now........ I was also sure the article did not originally state that his ticket was First Class; Presumably someone complained ? But still no mention of free food and drink however ! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 (edited) I have a lot of conflicted views over seasons, partially because of them subsidising many commuter's expensive lifestyles but also because it's very difficult to find out what actually is the real cost of providing a seat on a train in terms of train/miles (because of the variations brought about by different types of rolling stock, costs of services, cost of franchises etc). Can anyone cast any light on this? Edited December 17, 2020 by PenrithBeacon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted December 17, 2020 Author Share Posted December 17, 2020 33 minutes ago, caradoc said: I was also sure the article did not originally state that his ticket was First Class; Presumably someone complained ? But still no mention of free food and drink however ! Sometimes they put a note at the bottom when the article is changed, but not with this one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted December 17, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 17, 2020 12 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said: I have a lot of conflicted views over seasons, partially because of them subsidising many commuter's expensive lifestyles Genuinely interested what you mean by this. Do you mean that you don't think people should commute, and those who do should have to pay the daily fare? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 27 minutes ago, njee20 said: Genuinely interested what you mean by this. Do you mean that you don't think people should commute, and those who do should have to pay the daily fare? More complicated than that, hence the conflicts. Many years ago I commuted into the City of London, about 11 miles or so, by the Met. Later and for a good many more years after until retirement I cycled to the City and other workplace locations. So I'm no stranger to receiving a travel subsidy for rail commuting. The issue is, to me, that commuting within a defined geographical area such as the GLC (as was) seems to be OK but long distance commuting at a subsidy, while deliberately living a long way away from the workplace for lifestyle reasons, seems to be an abuse of a public service and to be immoral. I think people should work close to their workplace either by moving closer to that workplace or getting another job. And it wouldn't do any harm at all if they chose the latter, if fact their locality would be improved. I think that season tickets should be adjusted so that they reflect the normal day return until they hit the local boundaries (like say the GLC or GMC areas) and that they should receive to same subsidies as those living in that area thereafter. No doubt this will prove to be controversial. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted December 17, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 17, 2020 I'm not sure about controversial, but grossly flawed. We have an economy heavily centred on London. It's just where most jobs are. I'm "one of them" by your definition - I commute from West Sussex into London. I could move closer, but I'd get a 1-bedroom flat instead of a reasonable detached house, plus I don't want (nor do I want my family) to live in London. I could work closer, but not really in the same industry. Indeed when I've looked it would mean a 50% pay cut, which I'm not wild keen on! That said in 11 years commuting I've never actually bought a season ticket; a combination of working at home, or in other offices or cycling to work means it doesn't work out, so clearly the subsidies aren't that great! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted December 17, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 17, 2020 All over the country, many 'ordinary' people have to commute further/longer than they would like to. Many of those working in any big city can't afford to live in the neighbouring counties, never mind in the city itself. This is not due to any extravagance but just being able to live in a decent family home on the money they earn. e.g. many towns in Fife, particularly former depressed ex-mining locations have experienced a property boom due to workers in Edinburgh having to move further out to be able to afford to buy (either existing property or new build) The person in the BBC article travel I would suggest, is not particularly representative of many commuters who have no choice but to do so and for whom the cost of travel is a significant amount of their wage. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 18 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said: It's that time of year again when the fare increases are announced, so here's a slightly dubious article from the BBC on how one man's season ticket has risen by £12,000 since 1997. Complete with the usual rent-a-quotes from the unions. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55323345 What the article fails to mention is that £15k is the cost of a first class season ticket from Rugby. I guess the increase in price of a standard class ticket wouldn't have made such a good headline. Pete First I gave up reading it before it said 1st class. As far as I am concerned anyone commuting from Rugby to London, should not only pay the full unsubsidised cost plus a levy on the damage its doing to the environment. My brother in law always moaned about the cost of commuting from the middle of Kent to London. Carefully forgetting he moved his family to Kent so he did not have to commute to London 30+ years ago !!! Don't worry I kept reminding him of this fact. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 18 hours ago, ikcdab said: Mmm. Not sure. Some people have to live further out because they cannot afford the ridiculous London house prices, either buying or rental. I'm pretty sure the affluent do stand on their own two feet, I wouldn't want to pay his tax bill etc. It's the hallmark of a good and supportive society that we all pay in and then we all benefit.... But as far away as Rugby !! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 3 hours ago, njee20 said: I'm not sure about controversial, but grossly flawed. We have an economy heavily centred on London. It's just where most jobs are. I'm "one of them" by your definition - I commute from West Sussex into London. I could move closer, but I'd get a 1-bedroom flat instead of a reasonable detached house, plus I don't want (nor do I want my family) to live in London. I could work closer, but not really in the same industry. Indeed when I've looked it would mean a 50% pay cut, which I'm not wild keen on! That said in 11 years commuting I've never actually bought a season ticket; a combination of working at home, or in other offices or cycling to work means it doesn't work out, so clearly the subsidies aren't that great! Back in 1980 I was sold the story its better to work from the west end, the company changed all this in 1989 moving nearly all into the suburbs, swapped a 60 min journey for a 5 min one and saved £'s in train fares and petrol, plus 10 hours commuting a week. Businesses and people fool themselves into thinking they need to work in London, working from home is bringing this into question, plus increased house sales in the countryside. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted December 17, 2020 Author Share Posted December 17, 2020 22 minutes ago, hayfield said: But as far away as Rugby !! People commute from a lot further out than Rugby - Grantham is probably the realistic Northern limit of the long distance commuter belt, although I've heard of people commuting from Doncaster. 16 minutes ago, hayfield said: Businesses and people fool themselves into thinking they need to work in London, working from home is bringing this into question, plus increased house sales in the countryside. There was a time when a lot of businesses did need to be there, because the City had much better network connections than the rest of the UK. Problem is that people bought leased offices based on this, and got bought into a model that isn't true any more but they can't necessarily get out of. It's a bit like going to a cr@p pub, because all of your mates are there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supaned Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 Regarding commuting from Rugby and so on , sadly as housing prices have increased closer to and in London , people seem to have been forced to (or have chosen to) have moved further afield , and this combined with what up until recent times was a greatly improved and more frequent service has fed this demand. I live in Atherstone , which at one time had 6 trains a day up until not so long ago. Now , we have a near enough hourly semi-fast service to Euston taking 1h20 mins , and as house prices here are certainly reasonable , pre-COVID there was a large uptake in passengers commuting to London. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted December 17, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 17, 2020 Distance is pretty irrelevant surely, time is more relevant, and Rugby really isn’t very far to travel. 2 hours ago, hayfield said: Back in 1980 I was sold the story its better to work from the west end, the company changed all this in 1989 moving nearly all into the suburbs, swapped a 60 min journey for a 5 min one and saved £'s in train fares and petrol, plus 10 hours commuting a week. Businesses and people fool themselves into thinking they need to work in London, working from home is bringing this into question, plus increased house sales in the countryside. Yep, definitely, and I suspect we’ll see more of that, but until then it’s where the jobs are. It’s self perpetuating too. I work for a start-up, where there are a lot of face to face meetings with prospective clients. They’re all in London. So we need to be. If they weren’t, we wouldn’t need to be. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RANGERS Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 11 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said: People commute from a lot further out than Rugby - Grantham is probably the realistic Northern limit of the long distance commuter belt, although I've heard of people commuting from Doncaster. There was a time when a lot of businesses did need to be there, because the City had much better network connections than the rest of the UK. Problem is that people bought leased offices based on this, and got bought into a model that isn't true any more but they can't necessarily get out of. It's a bit like going to a cr@p pub, because all of your mates are there. There are plenty of folk that commute long distances to benefit from the lower cost housing, pre-COVID I did it from Kettering/ Corby where patronage has grown massively since the 1980s, indeed the business case for Corby station and subsequent electrification was built on London commuter traffic. That’s not the northern limit by any stretch of the imagination, I travelled with regular commuters from Derby, Nottingham, Leicester, Alfreton, Long Eaton and Loughborough. One of my colleagues lived in Solihull, another in Kings Lynn so distance is relative as they say! The one thing that’s perhaps more important in this is that the gent in the BBC case suggested he had to go first class to guarantee a seat and be able to use his travel time productively, so the additional £5k would be buying him an additional 15 hrs a week, 700 hrs a year so about £7 an hour, pretty good value for a professional person likely earning many times that. So far, so good, however the vast majority of those I travelled with went std class, often had to stand from Kettering and Wellingborough, weren’t highly paid professionals but were typically plumbers, nurses, transport workers, some retail staff, not the kind of people who earn megabucks, even at London rates. Their commute was driven partly by choice, more often of necessity in order to find a living cost/ commute cost that was viable. An example was a TfL worker I know who wanted to buy a house and set out heading North until he could find somewhere he could afford to buy and still fund a season ticket. He started on the Kings Lynn line but quickly reached Kings Lynn itself which still wasn’t viable, so he switched to the ECML where he now lives in Lincs, half an hour east of Grantham from where he commutes on his shift days. Covid is a game changer, I was in the office last week for the second time since March, the train from Kettering arrived in London with about 60-70 passengers (pre-COVID more than that would have boarded every peak train from Kettering alone) home working on a wider scale is proven to be viable, at least part time, what’s the business case for the railway and will that mean for fares? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdvle Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 (edited) 12 hours ago, hayfield said: Back in 1980 I was sold the story its better to work from the west end, the company changed all this in 1989 moving nearly all into the suburbs, swapped a 60 min journey for a 5 min one and saved £'s in train fares and petrol, plus 10 hours commuting a week. And part of what the company sacrificed was the pool of available talent when hiring - one of the "benefits" of London (or any larger city) is being a reasonably centralised place to get to by employees. Being located on the suburbs inherently means while those in the immediate area benefit from an easier commute, the 80% not in the immediate area will now struggle to take public transit to the new location - as for example most of the rail services go in towards the centre of the city. Quote Businesses and people fool themselves into thinking they need to work in London, working from home is bringing this into question, plus increased house sales in the countryside. Time will tell what changes from Covid become permanent, and what revert back to pre-Covid. One disadvantage some employees will discover from work from home is the networking opportunities and other in person contacts, which can often be beneficial in climbing the corporate ladder or taking advantage of lateral moves within a company - or even learning about better opportunities elsewhere through word of mouth among fellow commuters or lunch companions. And then there is the matter of employers tracking what their employees are doing, and the articles over the last couple of months about companies approaching various suppliers about ways to better "control" their employees who are working from home, to monitor their employees, etc. which may make some prefer a return to the office. Edited December 18, 2020 by mdvle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fezza Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 The real question here is not why season tickets are so high, but why are railways in Britain so costly to run compared with other countries? Is it due to business fragmentation? High salary costs? Overmanning? Poor strategic management? Wasteful capital projects? Insufficient revenues from freight? All these things? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DY444 Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 (edited) 14 hours ago, hayfield said: Back in 1980 I was sold the story its better to work from the west end, the company changed all this in 1989 moving nearly all into the suburbs, swapped a 60 min journey for a 5 min one and saved £'s in train fares and petrol, plus 10 hours commuting a week. Businesses and people fool themselves into thinking they need to work in London, working from home is bringing this into question, plus increased house sales in the countryside. There are two sides to every story though. The one undeniable advantage of locating in Central London is that you have the choice of staff in the suburbs and traditional dormitory towns from all points of the compass. As soon as you move out into the suburbs or beyond you lose that and often a good proportion of your experienced staff for whom the commute becomes too difficult or they don't want to move. Exhibit A in this is Network Rail and its move from Central London to Milton Keynes. Whilst by no means the only reason, you can draw a line straight from the decision to relocate and a lot of its subsequent travails particularly those related to timetabling and major project oversight. You will struggle to find anyone in NR who thinks the move hasn't been a disaster for its ability to do the job properly which at the end of the day is kind of the raison d'etre. As for working at home, my view is that it is largely the domain of established, better off professionals who have the space and resources to properly equip themselves to do it and who can afford houses in the country etc. Those loudly extolling its virtues rarely seem to live in a single bed flat with no room to swing a cat. Edited December 18, 2020 by DY444 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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