Antex XS25 and White Metal Kit

[AliR53]

Could I use my new Antex XS25 (soon to be received at Christmas) on a 00 Gauge White Metal Kit that I have had lying around for years? I am new to soldering, but I did attend a course and know the basics, including low melt solder, flux, tinning, etc. Advice very welcome and thank you in advance.

[Quarryscapes]

If you're new to soldering then probably not, no. The Antex 25W runs at around 400°c, and cannot be controlled. A Big lump of whitemetal will pull a lot of the heat out of it, but not before it's melted a hole in it. I have soldered a whitemetal kit with one in the past, but it was a feat of incredible luck more than judgement, and not one I would repeat given the choice. You would need o have perfectly clean join areas, a decent low melt solder (138° or thereabouts, do not use a 70° one as it will give off toxic fumes when heated at Antex temperature) and be VERY quick with the iron. 

[sulzer27jd]

Agree with Quarryscapes, it can be done, but requires a experience and even then cannot tackle some of the jobs. if you want to build your kit with confidence, invest in a temperature controlled soldering iron. 

 

John

[Steamport Southport]

Yes. That's what I and many others use.

 

I use a Weller 40 watt for etched brass and the Antex 25 watt* for joining whitemetal to brass and whitemetal to whitemetal. Also for small assemblies of brass. 

 

I learnt building these kits and followed the comprehensive instructions. The techniques work just as well in 4mm scale.

 

http://www.jimmcgeown.com/Questions.html

 

You have to be quick and don't linger. But why would you anyway? It's hot!

 

Tried a temperature controlled iron and couldn't use it.

 

*Just bought a new one to replace the one I've used for about 25 years.

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

I also forgot to say. Practice on something which if you muck up then you've not lost anything.

 

An inexpensive wagon kit rather than an expensive loco kit. I reckon kits such as those from 51L/Wizard are ideal.

 

Something like this is just a step up from building a Ratio or Parkside kit, you're just using a different method to fix it together.

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/wagons/nerdc010/

 

 

Jason

[AliR53]

Thank you all.

 

Jason, yes I also have an old Ks white metal kit of a NE brake van I think it is, which I shall have a go on first and note the previous comments on the solder. Getting in and out quick was something dealt with on the course I attended, which was at the MRC and some time ago.

 

I have seen advertised by Squires a "Antex Energy Regulator". I believe this acts like a dimmer switch. Does anyone think this would be worth investing in? I know it is not the same as a temperature controlled soldering station. But as you know quality, Antex, Weller, et al stations are expensive and I am not sure I would hardly use it.

 

Ali 

[AliR53]

The product is the Antex UE82060 Energy Regulator, which retails for £41.33. According to the specification notes it will reduce the temperature of the Iron make it suitable for low temperature soldering. I may just have to bite the bullet, get one and see if it does the job.

[Steamport Southport]

No idea. I've never used one.

 

To be honest you're probably ahead of me. I started soldering when I switched to O Gauge for a while in the late 1990s. I bought this book on locomotive and rolling construction, a few of the Connoisseur wagon kits and a Jinty. Prior to that everything was glued with various types of glues and epoxies.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Locomotive-Rolling-stock-Construction-Library-Modelling/dp/1857940385

 

So my techniques are copied from that book and others such as Iain Rice. Also using the instructions provided with the Connoisseur kits which are definitely aimed at the beginner to etched kits. The instructions are on the website.

 

They work for me. But others will probably have their own methods.

 

 

Jason

[ianLMS]

I have built a few white metal kits and even though i have a temp controlled iron (100-400 degrees) i leave it on the highest setting for brass and white metal. Plenty of flux, good dollop of solder on the end of the tip and i hovver the iron above the join just so the edge of the molten solder touches and gets drawn in. Then pull away as fast as u can. Mishaps happen when i am not paying attention and another part of the iron touches the model and melts a chunk out. As others have said, practice is the key!

Edited December 18, 2020 by ianLMS

[DCB]

The big issue is usually it is so darned awkward to get to some of the joints on cast kits to actually solder them.    I use a 40 watt iron usually, but then again I often build up white metal castings with electrical solder, K's 44/45/55 tank bunkers are a few mm short so I lengthen them with solder.   To be honest decent superglue usually does a better job as its easier to get and keep parts in alignment while it sets than to keep hot metal aligned.  I say decent super glue, the sort that makes your trousers smoke when dropped on them. I use loads of it, flood the joints.

[CEINEWYDD]

Many years ago I used a dimmer switch, and associated gubbins  (three pin socket and a light bulb in a socket to provide an appropriate load) to build a resistance unit to reduce the temp of my Antex iron to solder white metal kits - rolling stock and locos - with what appears to be success.  Low melt solder (70degree) and Carrs flux.  I have used this for at least 20 years and apart from 1 bulb blowing in that time have had no problems. I suggest you get hold of a local electrician to build you the same.  I believe I saw it described in a magazine, but health and safety will probably prevent a repeat.  Certainly a commercial prod will be safer and will work.   

[hayfield]

I started off with an Antex 25 watt iron and successfully built many whitemetal kits with it. I now have a temperature controlled iron, which is far better

 

Firstly I bought 3 or 4 different sizes tips, smaller tips will reduce heat transfer, larger ones will increase it

 

These are two tips I picked up when using the Antex

1   Use the correct liquid flux and 70 degree solder

2   Flux the joint, then put a small piece of solder in the joint, then take the soldering iron to the solder in the joint and get in and out as quickly as possible, don't worry if you have to do this 2 or 3 times, much better to err on the cautious side

 

With 70 degree solder you can undo the joint by putting it into the steam of the kettle

 

With lots of practice you can solder quite small parts, but not at first !!! 

 

Larger parts (like K's (larger) wagon sides) can act as a heat sink,  just need to go in and out very quickly with a hot iron, Sometimes tack solder the joint at one end, then solder the other end, once set go back to the tack joint and solder properly

 

Its not rocket science, just a technique that is learnt by practice

[dpgibbons]

And if you are soldering whitemetal to brass, tin the latter first. 

[hayfield]

There are lots of little tips like this, some even contradicting each other

 

I follow the method of putting a piece of solder in a flux joint, then brining the iron to the solder in the joint. I was told to do this as if you put the solder in the tip first by the time the solder gets to the joint the chemicals which allow the solder to flow in the join have burnt away

 

But I have also seen a demonstration where a loco builder touched a block of solder with the tip of the iron, then takes the solder to the joint. Making a secure neat joint

 

Both methods work, but both use the correct solder and flux. Plus of course a clean joint to start with and a clean tip.

 

As you say tin hard metals first, also insure the largest piece being soldered heats up as quickly as the smallest, its a process which is learnt with practice

 

Solder braid is a useful tool to remove excess solder, old multi strand wire can be used. Just strip it, flux it then use as a wick, would not use it on whitemetal but very useful on other joints

[John Tomlinson]

On 24/12/2020 at 21:56, CEINEWYDD said:

Many years ago I used a dimmer switch, and associated gubbins  (three pin socket and a light bulb in a socket to provide an appropriate load) to build a resistance unit to reduce the temp of my Antex iron to solder white metal kits - rolling stock and locos - with what appears to be success.  Low melt solder (70degree) and Carrs flux.  I have used this for at least 20 years and apart from 1 bulb blowing in that time have had no problems. I suggest you get hold of a local electrician to build you the same.  I believe I saw it described in a magazine, but health and safety will probably prevent a repeat.  Certainly a commercial prod will be safer and will work.   

I've built and successfully used something similar in the past, using a dimmer switch.

 

HOWEVER you are dealing with mains electric at 240V. So don't even dream of knocking something up yourself unless you really know what you are doing, and to be blunt that probably means being a qualified electrician in this day and age. Sorry if that sounds brusque, but its better than an abruptly terminated kit building career!

 

John.

[AliR53]

Bought a plug in dimmer light control switch (Black) on Amazon for £8.99. Don't tell anyone, but the man from Antex told me to give it a try before investing in the Antex Energy Regulator (essentially the same thing). So I shall give that a go and generally practice until confident enough to progress further. I was reasonably proficient on the soldering course I attended so feel quietly confident. I have generally mastered plastic kits and adhesives so I need to make the step up and try some different aspects of railway modelling.

[hayfield]

I was advised to turn my iron down to 300 degrees for whitemetal kits, seems to have been sound advice,

[Derek Russan]

On 30/12/2020 at 17:17, AliR53 said:

Bought a plug in dimmer light control switch (Black) on Amazon for £8.99. Don't tell anyone, but the man from Antex told me to give it a try before investing in the Antex Energy Regulator (essentially the same thing). So I shall give that a go and generally practice until confident enough to progress further. I was reasonably proficient on the soldering course I attended so feel quietly confident. I have generally mastered plastic kits and adhesives so I need to make the step up and try some different aspects of railway modelling.

 

I am inpressed that your soldering skills reach to plastic kits.

 

Seriously though, I consider regulators for irons a waste of time. A regulator is like putting a brick under a car accelerator. It limits the power, not the temperature (or for a car Speed). If the iron has any form or temperature regulation it can men an external regulator has to throtteled well down before becoming effective.

 

The important thing is to think about how the heat (energy) will get to the materials being joined. Lots of factors, but mostly fairly obvious. A big lump of metal takes more energy to heat up. A big bit on an iron will hold more energy. A higher wattage will put energy into the bit faster. A large contact aree will transfer energy faster. Most importantly contact for a longer time will transfer more energy. Keep these in your mind as you are doing the work and things should go well.