GWR B Set coaches - livery dates

[Scottish Modeller]

Hi all,

 

I'm trying to sort out some B Set coashs for another person and get him going in thehobby after 10 years of having N gauge stuff and done nothing with it.

 

So - Question re GWr B Set liveries

 

How late into the BR period di B Sets survive with GWR Brown and Cream livery?

 

Information I've found is a bit contradictory on dates. 

 

One source says all repainted very soon after Nationalisation. Another source implies that they may have lasted in GWR livery until early 50's.

 

Thoughts etc on this?

 

Thanks

Phil H

[melmerby]

 

There probably isn't a definitive answer but I assume they would have been painted maroon as soon as their turn came.

As suburban coaches they should have always been maroon under BR.

They certainly didn't get the later chocolate & cream treatment with the new awakening of regional liveries, that was reserved for Mk1 stock only (IIRC - no doubt some exceptions?)

 

[BernardTPM]

Not maroon until 1956, crimson (normally unlined) before that under BR.

[Miss Prism]

1 hour ago, Scottish Modeller said:

One source says all repainted very soon after Nationalisation.

 

No.

 

1 hour ago, Scottish Modeller said:

Another source implies that they may have lasted in GWR livery until early 50's.

 

Yes.

 

[melmerby]

What have we got here?

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrms1718.htm

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1809.htm

Not the railcar but the suburbans in the background

Edited December 21, 2020 by melmerby

[Scottish Modeller]

Hi all,

 

Thanks for the comments and nformation - much appreciated.

 

So for the period the modeling is to represent - early 50's to late 50's - there is a choice!

 

GWR Late choc/cream, BR Crimson and BR Maroon.

 

Plus lining on some BR stock!

 

That at least gives the guy some options to work on.

 

Thanks

Phil H

Edited December 21, 2020 by Scottish Modeller

[Marshall5]

13 hours ago, melmerby said:

What have we got here?

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrms1718.htm

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1809.htm

Not the railcar but the suburbans in the background

First pic:  Post 1956 maroon. Last carriage lined, middle and leading unlined. Leading vehicle more faded.  Lining applied to non-corridor stock from 1959 so photo probably early 60's.

Second pic: Pre 1956 crimson (sometimes referred to as carmine) for non-crridor stock and always unlined.

IIRC repaints occurred at roughly 7 yr intervals so there would always be an overlap.  In theory a carriage painted in GWR choc/cream in 1947 could remain in that livery until the early 50's as mentioned above. There were always exceptions such as some autotrailers which should have been all over unlined crimson appeared in 'blood and custard' reserved for corridor stock.  Also, after 1956 when some Mk1's were turned out in choc/cream a few ex GWR catering vehicles were similarly painted.

Hope this helps.

Ray.

Edited December 21, 2020 by Marshall5
error

[chrisf]

12 hours ago, melmerby said:

What have we got here?

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrms1718.htm

 

 

 

Three coaches, three different designs and three liveries.  Excellent!  Too many fellow modellers still believe in uniform rakes.  For me, pick and mix rules OK.

 

Chris

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 hour ago, chrisf said:

 

Three coaches, three different designs and three liveries.  Excellent!  Too many fellow modellers still believe in uniform rakes.  For me, pick and mix rules OK.

 

Chris

I thought that having no two coaches the same coupled together (except for the Bristol B Sets) was a WR rule.

Very much as my trains run as time progresses from 1956 to 1960. Starts with a couple of Hornby bow enders and will shortly get a wide body all third to replace the old Airfix coach. Progress to add a BR Mk1, wide body and Collett 57' bow end in three different shades by 1960. The LMR set is the same with 8 assorted P2/P3/Mk1 coaches for a pick'n'mix suburban set and the Excursion set having five different types covering PI, P2 and P3. 

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 21/12/2020 at 10:42, Marshall5 said:

Pre 1956 crimson (sometimes referred to as carmine) for non-crridor stock and always unlined.

I believe that the original instruction said crimson stock should be lined but this was very quickly dropped.

Edited December 23, 2020 by TheSignalEngineer

[Scottish Modeller]

Hi all,

 

I'm loving all the variation that is posible - wonderful.

 

Whilst the stock will be used on a generic ex GWR branch line terminus in a home situation, the very variety makes me think that he should adopt a real GWR terminus instead.

 

Now just have to convince him!

 

The baseboards were built almost 10 years ago and he has accumulated track and stock since then, but it's a somewhat random selection.

 

Thanks

Phil H

Edited December 21, 2020 by Scottish Modeller

[chrisf]

43 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

I believe that the original instruction said crimson stock should ne lined but this was very quickly dropped.

 

That's true.  When crimson was introduced in 1949 there was a line at waist level.  It was dropped circa 1951 but could still be seen in the mid 50s.  One of the last vehicles to have it was the diesel parcels car W34W.

 

Chris  

[Miss Prism]

1 hour ago, chrisf said:

When crimson was introduced in 1949 there was a line at waist level.

 

Was it a single line?

 

[chrisf]

Yes, if a yellow line touching a black line counts as single.  I've been trying to find photographic evidence but Google is for once not very helpful.

 

Chris  

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

I thought that having no two coaches the same coupled together (except for the Bristol B Sets) was a WR rule.

 

The West Midlands "B" sets (4 coaches as modelled recently by Hornby) seem to be fairly consistent from what I have seen.

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

I believe that the original instruction said crimson stock should ne lined but this was very quickly dropped.

I have never heard of this, or seen any photos of such a livery except for Parcels Railcars.  There were anomlies at this period, for instance Newport Area allocated Clifton Downs driving auto trailer W 3338 W, in crimson livery, had an unofficial locally applied waist line much as described, but this had been painted post 1950, as the WR was painting auto trailers crimson (carmine)/cream between June 1948 and 1950. 

 

None of which is any use to the OP, who wants to know about B sets.  Coaching stock in those days was painted after major overhauls, which took place at approximately 7 year intervals, and coaches would not be repainted simply because a new livery had been introduced until the overhaul was carried out.  So, a coach painted in wartime austerity lined brown in 1945 could easily have run in service in that livery into 1952, perhaps later.  We can extrapolate how long a livery remained in use in service by noting the livery change dates and and adding 7 years, not a hard and fast rule but good enough to be going on with. 

 

For the early BR period as a generalisation, a set repainted in 1934-42 shirtbutton livery could be seen in service into 1949, lined brown wartime austerity up to 1952, 1945-7 GW choc/cream unti 1954, 'first 6 months' BR choc/cream with W prefixed Gill Sans numbers and lettering up to 1955, plain crimson mid '48-56 up to 1963 (some B sets would have been withdrawn in this livery without ever carrying any version of maroon), 1956-9 unlined maroon until withdrawal and 1959 lined maroon ditto.  IIRC all the B sets had been withdrawn by 1963,

 

To define the term B set, as used by modellers we are talking about 2 coach sets of identical brake composites permanently coupled with the brake ends outwards.  B sets was the term used by Bristol Division for such pairs of coaches, and the first specific B sets, E116 (K's plastic construction kit) were built for this Division.  But, as has been pointed out, in Birmingham Division the term was used for 4-coach suburban rakes, including the Hornby 57' Collett suburbans.  Most GW/WR railwaymen from everywhere except the Bristol Division would not have known what you were talking about if you referred to a B set, or would have taken it to mean something different. 

 

The usual B set on model railways is the E129, a Collett bowended 60' type with 7' bogies originally produced by Airfix, and still in the Hornby Railroad range.  It's appeared in most of the appropriate liveries over the years, but not AFAIK wartime lined brown, though Dapol make an 0 gauge version in this livery.  This ex Airfix model is 'of it's time', which the underframe a bit crude by modern standards, but can be worked up with door handles, grab rails, and better outer buffers; this last modification 'lifts' the model considerably.  E129s were more evenly distributed about the system, and were followed by E140s, similar bowenders but with 9' Collett bogies,  The final type was the E147, flat ended with 9' bogies.  These coaches had normal inner buffers and normal drawgear, and in their later lives often ran as single coaches.  E140s and E147s are avaialble as kits from Comet/Wizard.  All types are suitable for an early BR layout, but not the E116s unless we are in the Bristol Division, where they remained all their lives. 

 

B sets are associated with branch line working, which they were used for, but were also frequently used for main line stopping trains.  They were a bit small for suburban work, but were used at peak times on some urban branches that were served by autos for the quieter parts of the day.  In South Wales these included the Porth-Maerdy and Machen-New Tredegar, and the Tondu branches; no doubt there are others.

[Tim V]

You're getting confused there, the Bset produced by Airfix/Dapol etc was the E140. By changing the bogies to 9' it could be an E145.

 

E116 - K's

E129, E147 - Comet.

[melmerby]

IIRC the E129 were the (mostly?) bar coupled pairs with no inner end buffers.

The Hornby 4 car "B" sets are E131+D98+D98+E131 formed with one RH & one LH pair

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

The West Midlands "B" sets (4 coaches as modelled recently by Hornby) seem to be fairly consistent from what I have seen.

The Birmingham 4-coach B sets seem to have remained in their sets up to the 1950s. After the DMUs came in some that remained in the area were split into pairs with a full second added. 

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, Marshall5 said:

IIRC repaints occurred at roughly 7 yr intervals so there would always be an overlap.  In theory a carriage painted in GWR choc/cream in 1947 could remain in that livery until the early 50's as mentioned above.

 

So: late GW and BR crimson up to c. 1955 or BR crimson and BR maroon from 1956, but never late GW and BR maroon together?

Edited December 21, 2020 by Compound2632

[Miss Prism]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

So: late GW and BR crimson up to c. 1955 or BR crimson and BR maroon from 1956, but never late GW and BR maroon together?

 

I don't think anyone could say that didn't happen. (e.g. with a soon-to-be-retired Toplight, say.)

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

I don't think anyone could say that didn't happen

There were examples of at least Southern and LNER stock which went straight from Big Four liveries to BR 1956 colours bypassing the Blood and Custard era. I think the last Gresley coach ran in varnished teak livery into 1960. 

 

6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

10 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

I believe that the original instruction said crimson stock should ne lined but this was very quickly dropped.

I have never heard of this, or seen any photos of such a livery except for Parcels Railcars. 

Robert Carroll has at least one picture on his Flickr page showing a Thompson non-corridor vehicle with a line at the waist.

Paul Bartlett has one of a Diagram 120 BY with waist lining in 1954.

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

So: late GW and BR crimson up to c. 1955 or BR crimson and BR maroon from 1956, but never late GW and BR maroon together?

There were very probably exceptions to the 7 year overhaul interval; Signal Engineer mentions a teak Gresley in 1960, which is 11 years at least since it’s previous repaint, I mean varnishing.  My layout covers the 1948-58 period, so it is inevitable that period -inappropriate stock appears at the same time, but I avoid mixing it in the same train betound the nominal 7 year limit unless I have photographic evidence. So a GW 1945-7 liveried coach will not run in the same train as a 1956 plain maroon one, for example. 

 

[Scottish Modeller]

Hi all,

 

It seems I have set the cat amongst the pigeons in the guys family!

 

He is happy to just have an N Gauge model railway with the look and feel of a BR era, ex GWR BLT!

 

His Mrs would be happier if he modelled a real place - "at least we could go and visit the place to see what it's like now".

 

Anyway - she is now hoping that the pressies she has for him at Xmas fit in with whatever he does mdel.

 

So, thanks for all the info - it will be useful whichver way he decides, now I've to look at GWR BLT that will go onto his existing baseboards.

 

Yes - I forgot to measure them when I visited......

 

Thanks

Phil H

 

 

[DCB]

The classic B set is coupled with a solid bar between the non brake coach ends, some lacked buffers so logically the "Pair" would be the same livery.    Any GW liveried coaches would be pretty well worn faded by the time the Maroon ones came out around 1956 and the Carmine faded to a weird variety of hues, rather like red Japanese cars did in the 1990s.  Maroon was not as bad but nothing like as fade resistant as Brown and cream..      The first pic looks like there is an LMS liveried coach at  the back rather than BR livery..

 

Edited December 22, 2020 by DavidCBroad