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Visitors to the Southern; Post war - Pre nationalisation


Jack P
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Hi guys, 

 

As the title suggests, I'm on the hunt for some info on what non-Southern locos might have regularly been seen on southern metals. Specifically in the Post-War Pre-BR period.

 

I know there's a list on SEMG, but I can't tell if they are Post 1948.

 

I appreciate the southern was a large place, so I mean generally, but if anyone has more specific information about locos that would've been seen on the Central/Eastern section, it's much appreciated!

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Can you narrow down the dates a little please Jack? Presumably you mean '48 - early '50s?

Phil

 

Hey Phil, 

 

Apologies if I wasn't clear, I mean specifically 1947, but any really any time between 1945-1947 would do me fine! 

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The through trains from the North West to the South East predate Grouping, let alone Nationalisation. So Birkenhead to Margate via Wolverhampton LL, Snow Hill, and Oxford joined Southern metals at Reading for the trip over the former SER line to Guildford and Redhill, where the train divided and reversed. The motive power in later years was often GWR 43xx and I would suspect this was true in 45-47, too. 

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For every passenger train on the Southern Railway (pre- or post-war) with "foreign" motive power there were probably around one hundred freight trains (and quite a few parcels trains as well). Some routes within south London would almost certainly see more foreign locos in the course of a day (or night) than they did Southern ones, Nunhead-Lewisham being an obvious example.

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I think this is a tough one to answer, because, apart from through goods to the various main yards at Feltham, Selhurst, and Hither Green, and to a lesser extent off the ELL to New Cross, and the through coal trains to the "foreign depots", again in South London, before WW2 "border* engine changes" were the normal order of the day. The Birkenhead to Sussex/Kent trains mentioned by OD changed to an SR mogul at Reading pre-war, for instance, and the Sunny South changed locos at either Willesden or Addison Road, I can't recall which without checking.

 

Once BR was properly in place, quite a lot of through-working of locos occurred.

 

So, between 1939 and the early-1950s? Common sense suggests a bit more through working to improve efficiency, and possibly to give enough engines to go round for really testing periods, but it also suggests all sorts of questions about crew familiarity with routes, availability of pilotmen, etc, which cut in the opposite direction. You are looking at The Dark Ages, where little is known and barely anything photographed, I think!

 

I guess you've picked-up on the ex-WD locos allocated to the south eastern, so not technically foreigners.

 

Very good pictorial article about inter-regionals into Kent and Sussex in "Steam Days" November 2020, but its all late-50s to mid-60s.

 

 

 

 

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Sunday excursions from the Great Eastern to South Coast resorts were worked by pairs of J67/J69 locos between Liverpool Street (where they necessarily reversed) and New Cross Gate through the East London Line, a Southern loco (probably from Norwood shed) working the trains south of New Cross Gate. There wasn't much freight traffic through the ELL to either Norwood yard (via New Cross Gate) or Hither Green sidings (via New Cross) until the diesels appeared in the late 1950s, probably because of the need to reverse in Liverpool Street station.

 

You shouldn't be surprised at the relative lack of foreign locos on the Southern other than on the very regular South London freight turns. Because of the complexity of the Southern network and the possibility of short notice diversions for operating reasons, foreign locos would have needed a conductor and it was simpler to just change locos. One of the reasons that GWR locos could work regularly from Reading to Redhill, from Andover and Winchester to Southampton and Portsmouth, and from Barnstaple to Ilfracombe was that there weren't any simple diversionary routes available and therefore regular foreign crews could be used, and did so sufficiently often to retain their route knowledge. Plymouth to Exeter via Okehampton was a special case where certain trains were regularly worked by GWR locos and crews (and certain trains via Newton Abbott by SR locos and crews) to maintain route knowledge in case of the need for emergency diversions.

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Would there have been much traffic from the LNER (or GWR) via the Widened Lines & Snow Hill?

Probably more goods/parcels than passenger though.

[Incidentally, the last scheduled ER service by this route (Sunday evening parcels) was March 1969.]

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Most, if not all, through traffic between the SR and the WR in the London area was worked by Southern locos via the West London Line. There was though an ex-GWR depot close to Stewart's Lane and traffic to/from that via the West London Line was pannier worked.

 

The Widened Lines mostly saw goods (especially coal) and parcels traffic off the GN main line. The goods had been worked by N1s and J52s but some time about 1953 the traffic was handed to a fleet of (non-condensing) J50s which, it has to be said, handled it remarkably well.

 

Passenger traffic via Snow Hill and the Widened Lines to/from either the GN or Midland was limited to the odd special, probably mainly military, as there were restrictions on the carriage stock which was acceptable.

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On 23/12/2020 at 23:49, Oldddudders said:

The motive power in later years was often GWR 43xx and I would suspect this was true in 45-47, too. 

 

That's really handy, as i've just purchased a 43xx.

 

Thanks so much for all the replies so far folks. Can anyone begin to shed some light on the specific locomotive classes one might have seen at various locations?

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I would hardly ever argue with OD, his knowledge of railway matters being profound and deep, but my jury is still out on this 43xx to Redhill thing. Before WW2: no. From the early 50s to mid-60s: yes. In between? No certainty either way, but personally I doubt it until BR was in place and had time to act.

 

They are among the nicest of GWR locos, though, so worth applying Rule 1 if necessary.

Edited by Nearholmer
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There was also a Pannier out stationed at Stewart's Lane for shunting the previously mentioned GWR goods depot in South London - I forget where it was. This avoided lots of light engine working.

 

I've just finished this excellent book, where the author talks about him and his driver being sent to prepare a loco without being given a number or road - the reason being that it was the only GWR loco on shed. and so easy to find  The GWR crew would then arrive by train and take over.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Footplate-Days-Southern-H-Norman/dp/0851534511/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Footplate+Days+on+the+Southern&qid=1609198597&sr=8-1

The book covers 1948 onwards, and mentions things like the LNER N1 and J52 classes, as well as LMS Jinties working through goods services in the London area via the Widened lines and Holborn Viaduct low level.

 

Before WW1 there were the various through London passenger workings (GWR services to Victoria, and GNR services to SECR suburban stations for example) and some remnants of these continued after the war. There are definitely photos of ex-LNWR locos on the Southern in the 20s: http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Mystery/index.php?display_base_mystery_mobile=243 and I think .Charles Klapper's 'London's lost railways' has a photo of a ex-LNWR Coal tank on a parcels train at East Croydon (I'll need to dig out my copy to check).

 

 

Edited by pete_mcfarlane
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1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

I thought we were looking at the Eastern and Central. If we include the Western there were other cases too: Plymouth area; Ifracombe; Basingstoke-Southampton; etc.

 

Eastern and central would be the most preferable, but I'm constantly tossing up where i'm going to model, so I suppose a general overview of all three sections would be handy!

 

Thanks @pete_mcfarlane another book i've known about for a while but haven't yet picked up!

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I think that the Jinties working through the Widened Lines only served the ex-LMS elevated coal sidings alongside the ex-LCDR viaduct in the Camberwell area, although they may well have worked on to the Loughborough/Herne Hill siding complex if only to take water and run-round their trains (although there was some exchange traffic in the sidings so may be the Jinties worked that as well). I never saw a Jinty at Hither Green, J50s a plenty of course, but exchange traffic from Willesden and Cricklewood came via the West London or Dudding Hill loop lines and was almost universally worked by 8Fs with just a very rare Crab for variety.

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Hi Jack

I raised the same question a while back over on my thread, but for the '38 - '48 period.

I must say that I came to the conclusion that the vast majority of inter-regional movements to and from the Southern changed locos at the nearest possible point to the boundary.

So far as I could see, you might get SR locos going round the North London Line as far as, say, Ferme Park, but incoming "foreigners" were likely to be taken off by Feltham at the very latest.

There were, as has been said, some coal depots south of the Thames owned by other Companies, but these were actually very close to the Thames and again, were the likely limit of travel for the foreign loco.

So unless you are modelling a location close to London or another inter-regional boundary, the answer to your question might be - "there were hardly any"!

Two good reference sources for the inter-regional traffic around London that I identified were "The District Controller's View: 1950's BR Steam Operating", Vol.17 West London, and Vol.13 The North London Railway, both by Xpress Publishing - a group of former railwaymen.

Whilst these relate specifically to BR in the '50's, the authors' stated view was that things changed very slowly in operating terms post nationalisation and so very little would have been different to what had gone on, particularly, in the immediate post-war period.

These are very detailed volumes that work through the Working Timetables and Engine Diagrams with a narrative that relates to how the District Traffic Controller is making decisions about which traffic will be given priority and so on.

As others have said, Rule 1 may be useful here, but for me, having had the question answered, I have almost completely lost interest in "foreign locos"!

Tony

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11 hours ago, Jack P said:

Thanks @pete_mcfarlane another book i've known about for a while but haven't yet picked up!

It's well worth getting. Weirdly it has a couple of poor reviews of Amazon that seem to be based on the fact that it (like most books of its time) is continuous text with a few pages of photos in the middle. 

 

I've dug out my copy, and there is a picture of an ex-LNWR coal tank on a parcels train at East Croydon in 1937, presumably the service mentioned on the LNWR society site. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

I've dug out my copy, and there is a picture of an ex-LNWR coal tank on a parcels train at East Croydon in 1937, presumably the service mentioned on the LNWR society site. 

 

 

Now that's the sort of evidence that would take my interest!

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2 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

It's well worth getting. Weirdly it has a couple of poor reviews of Amazon that seem to be based on the fact that it (like most books of its time) is continuous text with a few pages of photos in the middle. 

 

I've dug out my copy, and there is a picture of an ex-LNWR coal tank on a parcels train at East Croydon in 1937, presumably the service mentioned on the LNWR society site. 

 

 

 

17 minutes ago, Tony Teague said:

 

Now that's the sort of evidence that would take my interest!

 

Hi Pete

I should just say that I read your post as referring to the "Footplate Days on the Southern" volume that you had mentioned previously - but having dug out my copies of this and of Klapper's "London's Lost Railways" I realise now that you were referring to the latter for the pic. of the Coal Tank.

I thought I would just confirm this in case anyone rushed out to buy the wrong volume! (But it might be only me that was confused).

Tony

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'London's Lost Railways' is an essential if you are into ancient train routings, but it does wander-off a bit from history into a plea for the effective re-use of some of the routes, a plea that has been answered for a few since it was written.

 

The thing to bear in mind is that services have varied a lot over time, with the heyday of "suburban inter-regionals" having been in late Victorian times, just before trams and the deep-level tubes started to simplify life for commuters.

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17 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

There was also a Pannier out stationed at Stewart's Lane for shunting the previously mentioned GWR goods depot in South London - I forget where it was.

 

South Lambeth was the name, but think Battersea Power station for the rough location.

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2 hours ago, Tony Teague said:

 

 

Hi Pete

I should just say that I read your post as referring to the "Footplate Days on the Southern" volume that you had mentioned previously - but having dug out my copies of this and of Klapper's "London's Lost Railways" I realise now that you were referring to the latter for the pic. of the Coal Tank.

I thought I would just confirm this in case anyone rushed out to buy the wrong volume! (But it might be only me that was confused).

Tony

Sorry for the confusion - the LNWR tank at Croydon is definitely in 'London's lost railways'

 

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

'London's Lost Railways' is an essential if you are into ancient train routings, but it does wander-off a bit from history into a plea for the effective re-use of some of the routes, a plea that has been answered for a few since it was written.

Yes, the book ends with a discussion of a proposal called 'Crossrail'. 40 years later and its nearly finished, although it's cost somewhat more than the figures given in the book. 

 

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

'The thing to bear in mind is that services have varied a lot over time, with the heyday of "suburban inter-regionals" having been in late Victorian times, just before trams and the deep-level tubes started to simplify life for commuters.

Some of the services mentioned seem to have had very short lives, which suggests a degree of experimentation was going on (or one of the Directors lived in X and needed to get to Y, so there was definitely a demand for the service). 

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On 28/12/2020 at 23:19, Nearholmer said:

I would hardly ever argue with OD, his knowledge of railway matters being profound and deep, but my jury is still out on this 43xx to Redhill thing. Before WW2: no. From the early 50s to mid-60s: yes. In between? No certainty either way, but personally I doubt it until BR was in place and had time to act.

 

They are among the nicest of GWR locos, though, so worth applying Rule 1 if necessary.

I think, Kevin, it is about turf-wars. Why, in the post-war period, would WR crews suddenly be given the chance to work trains across the SER line to Redhill? It implies to me that those rights must go back probably to Pre-Grouping times. Locomen do not kindly give away work to other depots, let alone other railways, and the Reading Southern men would have had scant reason to acquiesce in this. 

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