Returning to DCC

[Guest Jack Benson]

A few years ago, the entire layout was taken out of retirement for use by a small group. The layout was DCC and had been wired by one of the former members. To cut a long story, five years ago due to new non-dcc members, we reverted to DC, we tested the layout with a DC loco and no shorts. After the change, we decided to concentrate on scenery and building stock rather than running until last weekend when we attempted to run all our stock only to discover that the fiddleyard was not self isolating. Whoops!
 

So, we decided to take a break and discuss our options - rewire the fiddleyard or revert to DCC. As the fiddleyard is behind a scenic break and under the layout is no longer accessible the second option, though costly, is preferred.

When we were running DCC, it was a Lenz system with Roco handsets, we learned to live with the lack of feedback and for the first ten years we were happy. Here is the question, has anything arrived on the market that is significantly better as an entry level system? 

 

Thanks for reading this tale of mistakes.

[norman]

I suggest you have a good look at the Digikeijs DR5000, it offers good value for money and flexibility together with built in WiFi.

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

What do you mean or understand by “entry level”?

Entry level, or starter systems, are generally limited in some way or other. Usually with regard to power handling capability.

Would that be suitable or appropriate for a club, or group layout?

There may be a limitation in the number of handsets that can be used at once.

A group layout might require extra handset capability to accommodate more operators, adding extra cost and pushing the price up to that of a more expensive  and more capable system. i.e. entry level = false economy.

 

As for newer DCC systems.
At the lower end of the market, there hasn’t been much new, apart from the entry level version of the Roco z21 ( small z), Digitrax DCS52 Zephyr Express and Piko SmartControl Light. I’m not sure these would be suitable for a group operation.

 

Above that, the very capable, full fat Roco Z21 ( capital Z) and the British made Sig-na Track, Ace.

Lenz have upgraded their system to the Set 101, comprising the new LH101 throttle and LZV200 Command Station/ Booster.

ESU have also continued to upgrade and evolve their ECoS system and now have wireless handsets to make it an option for club users.

Digitrax have a fresh range of systems available, based on the new DT 602 handsets, with twin throttles. They have a European CE approved wireless option.

Also look at Digikeijs, who have a very capable, low cost Command Station (DR5000), that can form part of a system using other manufacturers handsets and/or computer control.

It might be worth starting, by looking at Roco, as it provides a range of options, including the use of simple, straightforward wired handsets, as well as using smartphones as throttles ( anyone can join in with no additional cost to purchase another handset). There’s also a range of additional matching boosters in the range.

 

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Edited December 23, 2020 by Ron Ron Ron

[Ray H]

Aside from the control equipment you will need to factor in the cost of converting locos to run on a dcc layout and whether group members will be prepared to fund that (as well as the purchase of the control system.

[Guest Jack Benson]

Thanks guys,

 

Group, normally there is just three of us, the layout is an oversized scenic single test track with a 6 road fiddleyard. Entry level, no frills, just control of steam locos with a single corded handset, no ability  or need to expand. 

 

Your responses seem to indicate that not much has progressed at entry level in the past ten years, our last upgrade in around 2005 was to ditch the Lenz handheld for Multimaus. We tested a Lenz LH101 when launched and didn’t think it better than the Multimaus. 
 

Thanks once more

 

Stay safe this Christmas

 

[Paul Cram]

I have a NCE powercab as do others in the group. It is relatively cheap but expandable. It will cope with your requirements.

[Guest Jack Benson]

One forgotten factor, control. When we were running DCC or chosen standard chip was the Bachmann 553 (ESU lok pilot 1) although chunky was always reliable and easily sourced. With the current situation of possible restrictions of imports from Europe, we are concerned that Lenz and ESU maybe an issue as we really liked the latest ESU micro lok pilot 4.

Has Bachmann replaced the 553 with something as good, hopefully something smaller? The only loco we own that requires a non-standard chip is Hornby’s 48DS but we will cross that bridge.

 

That just about wraps up our questions, we should be OK

 

Thanks

[johnb]

Have a look at the Zimo range of chips, reasonably priced, pretty small and with good range of adjustable CVs.

[Oldddudders]

3 minutes ago, johnb said:

Have a look at the Zimo range of chips, reasonably priced, pretty small and with good range of adjustable CVs.

And a number of current Bachmann decoders are made by Zimo, and explicitly say so.

[pauliebanger]

An other vote here for ZIMO.

 

Nothing too special about a Hornby 48DS from a DCC perspective, once you've snipped off the socket provided, and you can get more in that you might think.

 

You can fit a ZIMO MX648 miniature sound decoder, speaker and high capacity Stay Alive in a Hornby Ruston 48DS.

 

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

[TWG]

Going back to the control unit, I suggest that you look carefully at the Piko Smart Control light.  At about £150 it seems to me remarkable value and it would be more than adequate to meet the requirements of the layout as adumbrated above.

[Guest Jack Benson]

Just waiting for response from YouChoos, the intention is to 'farm out' the installation of decoders as only two locos of the bunch are anything near to standard and wobbly Parkinson-afflicted hands aren't too clever. The suggestion over the 48DS is much appreciated, a stay-alive is essential.

Sorry to disappoint those who suggested other control systems but a previous happy relationship with Multimaus and prior knowledge is the deciding factor. It seems somewhat surprising that there isn't more progress with basic systems, we were disappointed with the Lenz LH101 whilst the cost/complexity of other systems is not something we actually need.

 

Thank you and stay safe

[Ron Ron Ron]

5 hours ago, Jack Benson said:

......our last upgrade in around 2005 was to ditch the Lenz handheld for Multimaus.

We tested a Lenz LH101 when launched and didn’t think it better than the Multimaus. 

 

 

If you liked the MultiMaus handset, then it's still available for use as a tethered handset on the Roco z21 & Z21 system.

There's also a wireless version of it, for use on those systems, which isn't expensive at all.

 

 

4 hours ago, Jack Benson said:

....our chosen standard chip was the Bachmann 553 (ESU Lokpilot Basic V1.0 ) although chunky was always reliable and easily sourced.

With the current situation of possible restrictions of imports from Europe, we are concerned that Lenz and ESU maybe an issue as we really liked the latest ESU micro lok pilot 4.

Has Bachmann replaced the 553 with something as good, hopefully something smaller? ........

 

Why would there be restrictions on imports?

They may or may not become a little more expensive, either due to import duties (tariffs) or increased admin costs, but they shouldn't be restricted.

After all, these products are sold in America, Canada and around the world.

 

The LokPilot Basic (Bachmann 36-553 & 36-554 ) was replaced many years ago.

It's replacement is ESU's LokPilot Standard, which is a more up-to-date and superior, entry level decoder.

Bachmann sell the 8-pin and 21-pin version of this , as the 36-566 and 36-557 respectively.

 

There are other very good decoders available.

Zimo have an excellent reputation and they now have their own budget priced offerings.

Bachmann sell a couple of Zimo decoders under their own brand name as well.

 

Lenz’s budget decoder, is the Standard Plus V2 , which gives little away to their more expensive Silver models.

 

 

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Edited December 23, 2020 by Ron Ron Ron

[Ron Ron Ron]

8 minutes ago, Jack Benson said:

......Sorry to disappoint those who suggested other control systems but a previous happy relationship with Multimaus and prior knowledge is the deciding factor. It seems somewhat surprising that there isn't more progress with basic systems,.....

 

The MultiMaus handset still lives......

However, the MultiMaus DCC system itself has been replaced by the budget z21 and full range Z21 systems.

 

The wireless version of the handset may be the simple solution you're looking for.

 

.

[Guest Jack Benson]

Oh dear,

Just a thought, the problem may be due to back feeds, a common(ish) problem when using a fan of storage sidings......most probably my error but I don't understand (at the moment) what I did wrong. Both ends of the storage siding loops are isolated from each other by plastic rail joiners and yesterday, whilst testing the fiddleyard, I was amazed to see two loco running in opposite directions on adjacent sidings whilst fed from one controller.

 

If this is the case, I need to revisit the wiring. 

 

Ho hum...

[grriff]

If you're willing to use a computer, it's worth considering a SPROG controlled by JMRI. This set-up also allows operation with a smartphone. However, looks like you're happy with the Multimaus.

Edited December 26, 2020 by grriff

[Guest Jack Benson]

Yipee - just gained a complete MultiMaus set-up for half the expected cost.......and I found all our MultiMaus files (cheat sheets and tricky mods) on the old separate hard-drive, now copied into the laptop. Off to find some half-decent decoders.

Back where we were three years ago :-) 

 

Cheers and thanks, happy new year in 2021

 

 

[WIMorrison]

you should look at Zimo decoders - they provide absolutely superb control 

[Guest Jack Benson]

12 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

you should look at Zimo decoders - they provide absolutely superb control 

Agreed but Laisdcc and Bachmann 566 seem to be the extent of our budget, the only  ‘top end’ device will be a tiny (non sound) decoder and stay-alive for the Ruston.

 

Neither will we buy anything intended for the US*, memories of Digitrax still haunt us. The quest for a reliable source of basic lower-cost decoders that are small enough to fit in elderly locos continues, though we have ordered a Gaugemaster Ruby just to see if it OK. If the outcome of our search is that we end up buying ESU LokPilot micros, it will not surprise me. The only reason that we didn’t use Lenz minis, was finding a reliable UK source who didn’t double their price, we miss Mackay Models. 
 

Any suggestion concerning low-cost, basic small decoders that we haven’t already mentioned would be appreciated. But, please, no mention of sound. 
 

*this also applies to Hornby decoders that are both expensive and not as good as Bachmann’s re-badged LokPilots.
 

Cheers 

 

 

 

 

 

[RFS]

4 minutes ago, Jack Benson said:

Agreed but Laisdcc and Bachmann 566 seem to be the extent of our budget, the only  ‘top end’ device will be a tiny (non sound) decoder and stay-alive for the Ruston.

 

Zimo provide a range of "budget" decoders at £20 each for each pin configuration. They are only budget in terms of things like functions and add-ons etc. However they have the same superb motor control functions shared by all the Zimo range. Laisdcc decoders are derived from an old version of TCS decoder firmware and are no match for Zimo.

[WIMorrison]

Some of the Bachmann decoders are also rebadged Zimo, but cost more than the Zimo original!

 

The Zimo MX617 range is what I use exclusively now, £20 each with the best motor control of all decoders that I have tried, and certainly streets ahead of Lais, Gaugemaster, etc.

[Guest Jack Benson]

54 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

Some of the Bachmann decoders are also rebadged Zimo, but cost more than the Zimo original!

 

The Zimo MX617 range is what I use exclusively now, £20 each with the best motor control of all decoders that I have tried, and certainly streets ahead of Lais, Gaugemaster, etc.

All bar three of our locos used 8-pin decoders, no 6-pin applications.

 

Which Bachmann decoders are Zimo-based?

 

Thank you

[Nigelcliffe]

1 hour ago, Jack Benson said:

Agreed but Laisdcc and Bachmann 566 seem to be the extent of our budget, the only  ‘top end’ device will be a tiny (non sound) decoder and stay-alive for the Ruston.

 

Neither will we buy anything intended for the US*, memories of Digitrax still haunt us. The quest for a reliable source of basic lower-cost decoders that are small enough to fit in elderly locos continues, though we have ordered a Gaugemaster Ruby just to see if it OK. If the outcome of our search is that we end up buying ESU LokPilot micros, it will not surprise me. The only reason that we didn’t use Lenz minis, was finding a reliable UK source who didn’t double their price, we miss Mackay Models. 
 

Any suggestion concerning low-cost, basic small decoders that we haven’t already mentioned would be appreciated. But, please, no mention of sound. 
 

*this also applies to Hornby decoders that are both expensive and not as good as Bachmann’s re-badged LokPilots.
 

 

As others have said, just buy the Zimo £20 decoders.  Save yourself a lot of trouble.     ESU Lokpilots are another option.   Lenz have some options in their middle sized decoders, though their "mini" models are much more expensive than better options from Zimo and ESU. 

 

If you don't like Digitrax decoders, then you may want to return the Gaugemaster Ruby decoders.  Gaugemaster bought a box from Digitrax and put a Ruby label on them....  
I'd not touch Lais, as much due to their history.  The same is true of several UK sub-brands which are just Lais with a different wrapper.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[WIMorrison]

1 hour ago, Jack Benson said:

...

 

Which Bachmann decoders are Zimo-based?

 

...

 

The ones with a little (minute) Zimo logo on the side of box. The problem with Bachmann is that the swap manufactures but keep the same part number therefore you really need to look on the box

 

The Zimo MX600R is an 8 pin decoder at £20 as is the MX617R but the MX617R is hard to get hold of at the moment.

[Guest Jack Benson]

Finding the Zimo MX600 is becoming difficult, most stockists seem to show ‘nil items’ 

 

BTW, which non-sound decoder+stay alive for the Hornby Ruston?

 

All purchases are currently mail order (we are Tier 2) therefore physical examination of potential stock is impossible.

 

A small box of Bachmann 566s is being considered, their predecessor 553 was a Lok Pilot 1 and our de facto medium sized decoder. 
 

Finally, point taken, the Gaugemaster Ruby has been cancelled.

 

Thank you