Loksound V5L from DCkits in Heljan O gauge 43xx - no coasting sound

[Stringfingerling]

A few minutes later...
This time I have made no changes to the decoder since the last session.  The loco can be heard puffing to a stop.  I have shown the controller to show that the only function selected is Sound (1)
I have no idea why it is now behaving differently?

 

[wiggy1]

45 minutes ago, Stringfingerling said:

Hi Wiggy. 

I tried the loco today and, once again, reset CV8 with value 8 to start again.  This time I didn't change the loco address from the default 3.  The loco coasted properly when the speed step was lowered by at least 5, for example from 80 to 70.  This is the point when I recorded the attached video.  I then changed the loco address to 5 to suit my needs and tried again.  Once more it began to chuff to a stop, though unfortunately I did not record it this time.  Once more, I reset CV8, and it coasted ok when the speed was lowered by 5 steps or more.  I then changed the address to 5 again and it seems to work ok as long as the speed lowered by 5 steps rather than 1.  If it carries on behaving like that that should be fine, but I will be ready to video it if not.

Here's the video of it working ok.  Just before the loco reaches the platform I lowered the speed from 80 to 70 and you can clearly hear the result which seems ok.
 

 

 

OK,

That seamed to be OK.

I'm guessing you are using 128 speed steps?

If so then you may have to drop by around 10 speed steps to get it to coast.

I'll check the file with 128 SS and see what happens.

Changing the address should not have any bearing on the speed steps or coasting.

If you have any more issues or it does it again a video would help.

 

Wiggy.

[Stringfingerling]

Did you see the the second video on the second page? The loco is puffing to a stop again.

[wiggy1]

14 minutes ago, Stringfingerling said:

Did you see the the second video on the second page? The loco is puffing to a stop again.

 

Just seen this one.

What function do you have on to make it accelerate and decelerate that quick?

Looks like acceleration and deceleration has been disabled.

Do you have anything on your controller that will do that to override the settings?

I'll try it my end but I don't have your type of controller.

 

Wiggy.

[Stringfingerling]

No functions switched on , but there is a "Momentum" setting on the NCE Powercab.  I normally keep on step 2-3 of 9, but I set it on 0 so that the loco would accelerate/decelerate as fast as the project motor acceleration settings would allow, so that I could get up to a reasonable speed fast enough to demonstrate how it was behaving when it slowed down.

[wiggy1]

10 minutes ago, Stringfingerling said:

No functions switched on , but there is a "Momentum" setting on the NCE Powercab.  I normally keep on step 2-3 of 9, but I set it on 0 so that the loco would accelerate/decelerate as fast as the project motor acceleration settings would allow, so that I could get up to a reasonable speed fast enough to demonstrate how it was behaving when it slowed down.

 

Can you turn that momentum setting off?

I've tried it this end and there is no way I can make it do what it does your end.

What did you change between the first video that was working OK and the second video?

 

Wiggy.

[Stringfingerling]

In between the first and second videos I've made no changes to CV's or anything like that.
I've just made two further videos which i'll upload in asap.  I set the momentum control on the controller to a mid setting (4) - there is no option to turn it off as far as I understand.  
The first of these  new videos- which I'll refer to as video 3 - shows how the loco behaves after this change on the controller. 
After filming that I then did a further CV8 reset and filmed the video 4, where the coasting facility has mysteriously returned.

Videos 3 and 4 will be posted in a few mins.

[pauliebanger]

You will not get coasting without sufficient momentum set in CV 4.

See this post as to why you should never use the PowerCab momentum button with any sound project.

Best regards,

 

Paul

 

 

[wiggy1]

I've just put the Acceleration function on the decoder and it acts just the way yours dose when I press that function button.

So its looking like the momentum setting on your controller.

Is there a way to turn it off or disable it as I think thats what causing the problem.

 

Wiggy.

[Stringfingerling]

Here are videos 3 and 4.  As well as your suggestion above I've just been reading the linked post from Pauliebanger which might hold the key to this business.
Video 3, showing excessively fast acceleration/deceleration, even though the momentum control has been to a mid setting.
Video 4 after another CV8 reset showing coasting etc as expected. 
Tomorrow I shall try to get to grips with my NCE Powercab, so I can stop using the momentum setting in a way which  overwrites the project settings.   

Video 4 after reset of CV8
 

 

[Stringfingerling]

This is an interesting thread on this subject that I had no idea about previously:

 

[Stringfingerling]

Once again, thank you very much Wiggy, Pauliebanger and others who have contributed to this discussion.  I think I understand the issues now.  The loco is behaving very nicely - I think it's just a question of not messing with the momentum button.  I had always assumed it was a "controller only" setting and I had no idea that it reset values on the decoder, as I hadn't run into issues with my locos, which, I think, all use Zimo chips.
I'll report back in a day or two in case people are interested - there are plenty of people with NCE Powercabs who might find themselves down the same rabbit hole as me.

Yet again, it's so good having a supportive community through RM Web.  I'm not a member of any club and I have any nearby modelling friends and on a number of occasions I've been offered ready help with problems that has proved invaluable.

[wiggy1]

Further down the thread Paul posted there are likes on how to disable it but I think it is basically removing the back cover and taping over the button but you'll need to read more.

 

Wiggy.

[Albie the plumber]

Going slightly off topic , I have to say I love that layout  can't fail to be impressed by it .

It must be inspired by the landscape around Bleanau Ffestiniog , even the sky has its typically moody , heavy look 

which is very refreshing !

 

Albie

[Nigelcliffe]

1 hour ago, Stringfingerling said:

Here are videos 3 and 4.  As well as your suggestion above I've just been reading the linked post from Pauliebanger which might hold the key to this business.
Video 3, showing excessively fast acceleration/deceleration, even though the momentum control has been to a mid setting.
Video 4 after another CV8 reset showing coasting etc as expected. 
Tomorrow I shall try to get to grips with my NCE Powercab, so I can stop using the momentum setting in a way which  overwrites the project settings.   

 

 

The PowerCab Momentum button *is* the explanation.  Reading down the thread, as soon as it became apparent that your changes had included using the momentum key, the answer was clear to me.   Paul put the link to his old thread explaining the dangers of the momentum key.   

 

The PowerCab momentum key overwrites the values in CV3 and CV4 in the loco.  Its doing programming-on-the-main of those two CVs, writing one of the pairs of values that NCE include at the factory.   There is no way of pressing the momentum button to return the loco to the original values in the sound project.   If the values in CV3 and CV4 are too low, then sound effects which are based on speed changes won't be registered in the decoder, so things like coasting will never be heard.  

 

There are four solutions:

a)  learn which momentum key settings give acceptable driving behaviour. 

b)  promise never to press the momentum key. 

c)  put a sticky-backed foam or rubber polo-mint ring around the momentum key to make it a bit harder to press without thinking

d)  physically disable the key inside the Powercab so it cannot be accidentally pressed.  

 

 

There is an option in the ESU decoder to change a number of CV's so a function key can turn off acceleration and deceleration.  That might be useful if you need to accelerate/brake hard in the storage areas.   If you don't have lights on the loco, then it could be allocated to the F0 (lights) key on the handset.  

 

 

- Nigel

[Stringfingerling]

1 minute ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

The PowerCab Momentum button *is* the explanation.  Reading down the thread, as soon as it became apparent that your changes had included using the momentum key, the answer was clear to me.   Paul put the link to his old thread explaining the dangers of the momentum key.   

 

The PowerCab momentum key overwrites the values in CV3 and CV4 in the loco.  Its doing programming-on-the-main of those two CVs, writing one of the pairs of values that NCE include at the factory.   There is no way of pressing the momentum button to return the loco to the original values in the sound project.   If the values in CV3 and CV4 are too low, then sound effects which are based on speed changes won't be registered in the decoder, so things like coasting will never be heard.  

 

There are four solutions:

a)  learn which momentum key settings give acceptable driving behaviour. 

b)  promise never to press the momentum key. 

c)  put a sticky-backed foam or rubber polo-mint ring around the momentum key to make it a bit harder to press without thinking

d)  physically disable the key inside the Powercab so it cannot be accidentally pressed.  

 

 

There is an option in the ESU decoder to change a number of CV's so a function key can turn off acceleration and deceleration.  That might be useful if you need to accelerate/brake hard in the storage areas.   If you don't have lights on the loco, then it could be allocated to the F0 (lights) key on the handset.  

 

 

- Nigel

Thank you Nigel. I'm very pleased to know what I'm  dealing with now. 

[Stringfingerling]

11 hours ago, Albie the plumber said:

Going slightly off topic , I have to say I love that layout  can't fail to be impressed by it .

It must be inspired by the landscape around Bleanau Ffestiniog , even the sky has its typically moody , heavy look 

which is very refreshing !

 

Albie

Thank you Albie! Blaenau Ffestiniog is definitely part of the inspiration  though the story I have concocted for the layout centres round the fictional, but could have just about happened , standard gauge line along the route of the Corris Railway and beyond, in 1946.  I made a video a little while ago which you can  see here:

 

 

[dasatcopthorne]

Since Paulibager's forst post on this, I've taken my Power Cab apart and fixed tape over the contacts of the Momentum buttons.

 

Done the same for all our Club's throttles.

 

Dave.

 

[Albie the plumber]

6 hours ago, Stringfingerling said:

Thank you Albie! Blaenau Ffestiniog is definitely part of the inspiration  though the story I have concocted for the layout centres round the fictional, but could have just about happened , standard gauge line along the route of the Corris Railway and beyond, in 1946.  I made a video a little while ago which you can  see here:

 

 

Great video !

It matches the effort put into  the layout itself .

One of those layouts where ,were it able to be exhibited, it would draw in many people who would marvel at the detail of the village and the dramatic landscape . 

A very bold move to do away with the ubiquitous blue sky !

[Stringfingerling]

If anyone is interested, I have now got the Mogul running much more as I would wish!  Fiddling with CV's 68-93, I have been able to raise the profile of the speed curve so that the loco initially accelerates a bit more briskly and has less dramatic acceleration further up the speed range.
Happy to post some CV values if anyone wants.

[GWR57xx]

3 hours ago, Stringfingerling said:

 

Happy to post some CV values if anyone wants.

 

 

I would be very grateful if you could let me know the values you have for CVs 2, 9, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 116, 117, 118 & 119.

Thanks,

Peter

[Stringfingerling]

20 minutes ago, GWR57xx said:

 

I would be very grateful if you could let me know the values you have for CVs 2, 9, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 116, 117, 118 & 119.

Thanks,

Peter

Hi Peter - Here are the values.  It may be worth noting that I've changed my speed curve by altering CV's 68 to 93 for earlier acceleration.
CV
2   = 5
9 = 40

51=31

52=7

53=91

54=43

55=30

56=255

116=50

117=150

118=15

119=20

[wiggy1]

2 hours ago, Stringfingerling said:

Hi Peter - Here are the values.  It may be worth noting that I've changed my speed curve by altering CV's 68 to 93 for earlier acceleration.
CV
2   = 5
9 = 40

51=31

52=7

53=91

54=43

55=30

56=255

116=50

117=150

118=15

119=20

 

Did you have to alter the chuff settings?

With CV53 so low it should have an effect on the BPR and acceleration?

Cv's 9, 56, 116-119 are motor default settings.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, GWR57xx said:

 

I would be very grateful if you could let me know the values you have for CVs 2, 9, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 116, 117, 118 & 119.

Thanks,

Peter

 Peter,

Are you having problems with your O gauge 43xx?

 

Wiggy.

Edited December 30, 2020 by wiggy1

[Stringfingerling]

1 minute ago, wiggy1 said:

 

Did you have to alter the chuff settings?

With CV53 so low it should have an effect on the BPR?

Cv's 9, 56, 116-119 are motor default settings.

 

 

 

 Peter,

Are you having problems with your O gauge 43xx?

 

Wiggy.

I did change the chuff settings earlier and they seem reasonably good now but since adjusting the speed curve I haven't really checked them. My main aims were to get earlier acceleration and deceleration along with preserving the ability to coast. I can't remember off hand cv53 does?

[GWR57xx]

2 hours ago, Stringfingerling said:

Hi Peter - Here are the values.  It may be worth noting that I've changed my speed curve by altering CV's 68 to 93 for earlier acceleration.
CV
2   = 5
9 = 40

51=31

52=7

53=91

54=43

55=30

56=255

116=50

117=150

118=15

119=20

 

Thanks very much - I'll compare those to mine when I put the LS5 back in (currently back on DC to do more running in).

 

 

11 minutes ago, wiggy1 said:

 

 Peter,

Are you having problems with your O gauge 43xx?

 

Wiggy.

 

Hi @wiggy1, yes just a bit. I haven't managed to get it to run nicely under DCC yet.

Some details here (page 5 onwards): 

 

 

More here:

 

With no information other than the basic descriptions of CVs from ESU I'm finding it a bit like trying to find a needle in a haystack (with the added bonus that every time you move one piece of straw the haystack rearranges itself).