Where is this stone train ?

[SED Freightman]

I would be very grateful if anyone can identify the location of the photo below which depicts what I believe to be a train load of MoT Type 1 limestone loaded in MDV's.  The contents of the badly loaded wagons have yet to settle, therefore I would assume the location is not far from the loading point where loading has been carried out by a shovel / front loader rather than via an overhead hopper.  Apologies for the poor quality of the picture which is taken from a newspaper (long defunct) cutting published in 1972, if there is any problem with copyright I will ask for the photo to be removed.

 

[iands]

Do you know the name of the newspaper? Might help narrowing down the area. 

[The Johnster]

It may be of some help to note that the loading is very probably done at the location of the photo.  The train, with it's unsettled load, is drawing out of a yard onto a main line, and while it is difficult to be sure as the newspaper printing is a bit blurry, is I think hauled by a diesel locomotive possibly class 37, 40, or Peak.  The signalbox looks LNW rather than Midland, and behind the cabin is what could be a quarry loco, and there may be a quarry branch going off towards right top of shot.  I'm going to take a punt of the photo being taken by the press photographer in 1972, based on the condition of the 16ton steel mineral to the left of shot.   Stone buildings suggest Peak district, which aligns with the load, or at least 'oop north' somewhere. 

 

Trees, deciduous ones at least, show it to be winter.  No sun (it's grim oop north), so no chance of guessing time of day or direction of train from shadows.  It is a fairly busy spot by the look of things, sidings both sides of the running lines, and I'm sure someone will enlighten us soon.  Road overbridge or station footbridge as vantage point; the nearmost limestone wagon is on a curve so probably the former as the siding it is being drawn from is not diverging to leave room for a platform.  There may not be a station at this location, then.  It's a very modellable scene!

 

What was the article about?

[ikcdab]

And why was it in the paper? Was there an incident?

[The Johnster]

In 1972, more likely a quarry closure.

[br2975]

I suggest this is.......Croes Newydd , 

.

Edit:-

See my post below.

.

Brian R

 

Edited December 26, 2020 by br2975

[SED Freightman]

Thanks for all your thoughts so far.  I had looked at the Mendips (as a source of limestone) and thought perhaps Mells Road, but as The Johnster has pointed out it is perhaps more likely to be in the Peak District or possibly the East Midlands.  The picture formed (as far as I can recall) part of a photo feature in The Sevenoaks News relating to the construction of the A21 Sevenoaks Bypass and was the only one of railway interest, the caption was along the lines of 'this is one of the stone trains which were unloaded at Dunton Green from where the construction material was delivered by road'.  I have seen a photo of stone being unloaded from MDV's at Dunton Green but have no idea where the traffic originated from, it is of course possible that the newspaper just published a stock photo of a stone train rather than one of those that actually served Dunton Green.

[br2975]

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury - please allow me to present "Exhibit A" care of the owner, the RCTS, from whom I produce this image of Wrexham, Croes Newydd "West"

.

Brian R

[SED Freightman]

Many thanks Brian, I would never have guessed Wrexham.  Is it possible that the stone train could have been heading for Dunton Green, it seems an awful long way to go with a low value commodity ?

[The Johnster]

Nailed it, Brian.  It is a long way with a low value item, but Sevenoaks is a long way from any limestone (chalk is not suitable for infill in road building, it degrades and collapses), and perhaps Flint limestone had the required properties,  The Peak district is not much closer, and the West Country quarries tended to be used for building stone.  Forest of Dean and South Wales stone was also used for building, or railway ballast (which you'd have thought would be ok for road fill).

[doilum]

1 hour ago, br2975 said:

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury - please allow me to present "Exhibit A" care of the owner, the RCTS, from whom I produce this image of Wrexham, Croes Newydd "West"

.

Brian R

Absolutely true to modelling prototype. The Ratio coke hopper proved to be a better looker than runner and has been stuck on a ridiculously short siding with a couple of random cripples.

[SED Freightman]

Having now found Croes Newydd and had a look at the track layout, I wonder if the stone train is reversing into the yard rather than departing, possibly having originated from Blodwell Quarry or some other nearer loading point ?

[nigb55009]

Is it possible that the wagons are loaded with iron ore not stone? That would fit with the idea that the train is reversing into the sidings. There was a steep climb from Croes Newydd up to Brymbo steel works, heavy trains like the one in the photo may have required splitting into shorter trains before going forward to the steelworks. I have, somewhere, a video showing trains on the Brymbo branch, I`ll try and find it, see if that gives any more clues. 

[Edwin_m]

There appears to be a main signal facing the camera just where the train is joining the main line on the OP, which doesn't appear on the RCTS photo.  On the original, is this in fact a signal and is it "off"?  If so then it's pretty definite that the train is heading away from camera.  

[TheSignalEngineer]

All I can see there is what I think is an electric light pole.

[beast66606]

There's a couple of my photos of CNWF in this post unfortunately the only ones I've currently scanned are an early ground signal,

 

[Fat Controller]

Just a thought; might it actually be steelworks slag that was being transported? I know that, at one time, it could be bought for the cost of transport.

[The Stationmaster]

14 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Nailed it, Brian.  It is a long way with a low value item, but Sevenoaks is a long way from any limestone (chalk is not suitable for infill in road building, it degrades and collapses), and perhaps Flint limestone had the required properties,  The Peak district is not much closer, and the West Country quarries tended to be used for building stone.  Forest of Dean and South Wales stone was also used for building, or railway ballast (which you'd have thought would be ok for road fill).

Massive quantities of Mendip stone went into road building - much of the M20 is built on it as were parts of the M25 and various other roads.  In fact John Yeoman basically redeveloped the quarry at Merehead on the back of using rail delivery to remote (from the Mendips) locations for road construction.   Mendips limestone, particularly from Whatley, was used for railway ballast but almost entirely by the Southern Region and the Western used very little Mendip stone for ballast in the ;new age' of the Mendip quarries. 

 

14 hours ago, doilum said:

Absolutely true to modelling prototype. The Ratio coke hopper proved to be a better looker than runner and has been stuck on a ridiculously short siding with a couple of random cripples.

14 hours ago, nigb55009 said:

Is it possible that the wagons are loaded with iron ore not stone? That would fit with the idea that the train is reversing into the sidings. There was a steep climb from Croes Newydd up to Brymbo steel works, heavy trains like the one in the photo may have required splitting into shorter trains before going forward to the steelworks. I have, somewhere, a video showing trains on the Brymbo branch, I`ll try and find it, see if that gives any more clues. 

The coke hopper kit was made by 3 Aitch.   I think Ratio did an iron hopper at one time - a much smaller wagon.

 

It looks very much to me as if the train is being propelled towards the camera viewpoint evidenced in part bt the presence of the ground staff especially the one nearest the camera who is obviously watching where the wagons are going (he'd hardly be watching where they have come from).

 

in respect of the OPs, questions I can't find Dunton Green listed as a location to which Yeoman despatched stone from Merehead or Dulcote;  the nearest destination of theirs to there was probably Salfords near Redhill.

[Fat Controller]

7 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

M

 

in respect of the OPs, questions I can't find Dunton Green listed as a location to which Yeoman despatched stone from Merehead or Dulcote;  the nearest destination of theirs to there was probably Salfords near Redhill.

I recollect there being a terminal at 'Bat and Ball', which would have been very close to Dunton Green; not sure who the operator was (just checked on Baker- it was Redland). Yeoman had a terminal in Tonbridge.

[eastwestdivide]

Also nearby, Amey Roadstone/ARC at Allington.

[nigb55009]

Further to my earlier post, I have now found the DVD I referred to. It is called "Landscapes of steam, volume 2, Chester and North Wales." The first part features the Wrexham, Mold and Connahs Quay Railway and covers the Brymbo branch. The footage shows both limestone and iron ore being taken up the branch to the steelworks, but unfortunately doesn`t mention where the traffic originated. One scene actually shows a rake of 24 ton coal wagons, as seen in the photo above, loaded with what appears to be the same material, but it looks to be limestone rather than iron ore, as I earlier suggested. Heavy trains were banked up to Brymbo and at Brymbo West Crossing signal box reversed into the works, the banker becoming the train engine.

 

[SED Freightman]

Thanks to everyone for your further thoughts and comments.

 

Just to clarify, the traffic I was hoping to identify was unloaded in the former goods yard at Dunton Green in the mid 1960's, it was the last freight traffic at the location which was re-opened specially for the short term flow of construction traffic.  Sometimes the consignee provides a clue as to the forwarding location, ie. traffic for Yeomans would normally originate from their quarry, however at Dunton Green the unloading activities were carried out by Cementation Ltd, who were a main contractor for the A21 Sevenoaks Bypass construction.  The two photos I have seen of the unloading show a very light coloured material (like that in the wagons at Croes Newydd) being grabbed out of MDV's, unfortunately I cannot post copies of these due to copyright considerations.  Although the material may have been used as a sub-base most of the fill came from a large cutting excavated through the greensand ridge.  If the traffic was limestone it may have been used for the production of ashphalt / tarmac as there was a temporary coating plant associated with the road project, I'm not sure if steelworks slag would have been suitable for this purpose.

 

Apart from Allington Sdgs (ARC), the temporary terminals at Bat & Ball (Redland) and Tonbridge (Yeoman) came along much later, albeit they were also primarily to supply material for road projects, namely the M25 and A21 Tonbridge Bypass.

 

Thanks to nigb55009 it does seem as though my original photo may be a train of limestone for Brymbo rather than Dunton Green, so maybe the local paper had excercised a bit of journalistic license to fill out their photo feature.  On the other hand if there was a quarry in the area loading limestone into MDV's perhaps some did head a long way south.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Yeoman had an unloading point at Longcross for the M3 in the early 70's, is this anywhere near the area and could have been used?

 

Mike.

[Oldddudders]

6 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Yeoman had an unloading point at Longcross for the M3 in the early 70's, is this anywhere near the area and could have been used?

 

Mike.

I believe not. Longcross is a darned long way from Dunton Green, particularly in a pre-M25 era. 

[doilum]

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Massive quantities of Mendip stone went into road building - much of the M20 is built on it as were parts of the M25 and various other roads.  In fact John Yeoman basically redeveloped the quarry at Merehead on the back of using rail delivery to remote (from the Mendips) locations for road construction.   Mendips limestone, particularly from Whatley, was used for railway ballast but almost entirely by the Southern Region and the Western used very little Mendip stone for ballast in the ;new age' of the Mendip quarries. 

 

The coke hopper kit was made by 3 Aitch.   I think Ratio did an iron hopper at one time - a much smaller wagon.

 

It looks very much to me as if the train is being propelled towards the camera viewpoint evidenced in part bt the presence of the ground staff especially the one nearest the camera who is obviously watching where the wagons are going (he'd hardly be watching where they have come from).

 

in respect of the OPs, questions I can't find Dunton Green listed as a location to which Yeoman despatched stone from Merehead or Dulcote;  the nearest destination of theirs to there was probably Salfords near Redhill.

It was a long time ago in my early 4mm days. I had associated 3H with the larger scale. It was probably my first non Airfix kit and needed half filling with lead shot to remain stable. Worst thing was I had invested in a rake of three!