Swinton & Knottingley Joint Railway

[1165Valour]

I'm trying to increase my knowledge of the Great Central in South Yorkshire (future layout potential?), and I wanted to know what classes of engines and trains were common on the Swinton & Knottingley Joint Railway between 1900 and 1910. I expect older T. W. Worsdell types and Midland types, but I wanted to be sure.

[1165Valour]

1 hour ago, AVS1998 said:

I live in Knottingley, and I haven't heard of anything GCR specifically passing through the town (though I haven't lived here long), but I can try and take a look in the library or the west Yorkshire archives in Wakefield at some point and see if there is anything? 

Thank you, but the GCR never ran through Knottingley, at least as far as I can tell. They did run through Swinton at the other end of the line however.

[Compound2632]

On the opening of the S&KJ in 1879, five Midland 2-4-0s were sent to York to work passenger services, along with five 0-6-0s for goods work, increased to eight by 1892. The North Easter set aside one of its roundhouse sheds for the Midland engines. Those 2-4-0s, 1907 Nos. 192-196, remained at York until at least 1914, having been joined by 1907 No. 191 by 1900. By 1921 their place had been taken by four 4-4-0s, Nos. 399-403, originally members of the 1808 class, all with H boilers, though Nos. 400-402 were rebuilt to 483 class in 1922. Of course these are only the engines shedded at York for working turns south via the S&KJ - notably Newcastle-Bristol expresses and the St Pancras-Newcastle TPO - other locomotives of the same or other classes may have had turns to York.

 

Refs.

C. Hawkins & G. Reeve, LMS Engine Sheds Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1981)

S. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 3 (Irwell Press, 2002)

[1165Valour]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

On the opening of the S&KJ in 1879, five Midland 2-4-0s were sent to York to work passenger services, along with five 0-6-0s for goods work, increased to eight by 1892. The North Easter set aside one of its roundhouse sheds for the Midland engines. Those 2-4-0s, 1907 Nos. 192-196, remained at York until at least 1914, having been joined by 1907 No. 191 by 1900. By 1921 their place had been taken by four 4-4-0s, Nos. 399-403, originally members of the 1808 class, all with H boilers, though Nos. 400-402 were rebuilt to 483 class in 1922. Of course these are only the engines shedded at York for working turns south via the S&KJ - notably Newcastle-Bristol expresses and the St Pancras-Newcastle TPO - other locomotives of the same or other classes may have had turns to York.

 

Refs.

C. Hawkins & G. Reeve, LMS Engine Sheds Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1981)

S. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 3 (Irwell Press, 2002)

Thank you for the information - interesting that only four 2-4-0s were sufficient for the Midland's York trains.

[Compound2632]

58 minutes ago, GWRSwindon said:

Thank you for the information - interesting that only four 2-4-0s were sufficient for the Midland's York trains.

 

With one spare. But as I said, that doesn't include engines shedded elsewhere and working into York, turning and watering there. So maybe eight passenger engines in total - which is in fact the number of Sheffield-York passenger trains listed on weekdays in the summer 1903 timetable.

[1165Valour]

On 28/12/2020 at 14:16, Compound2632 said:

 

With one spare. But as I said, that doesn't include engines shedded elsewhere and working into York, turning and watering there. So maybe eight passenger engines in total - which is in fact the number of Sheffield-York passenger trains listed on weekdays in the summer 1903 timetable.

Applying the same logic to the North Eastern, I wouldn't surprised if some of Fletcher's aging 901 Class 2-4-0s worked the line, or some of T. W. Worsdell's older 4-4-0s.

[Jones the Steam]

The GCR made a great deal of use of the S&KJtR on services through Sheffield to York. The MR railway ran into Sheffield Midland and cross country to Birmingham and beyond, whereas the GCR reversed at Sheffield Victoria down to Banbury and then Swindon. 

D.L. Franks lays out detail of both passenger and freight services in his book: Swinton and Knottingley Railway, Dalesman Books, 1979.

I know LNER D10's were used over the line, but they might be a little too late for you. LNER J11's certainly. 

If you Facebook, there is a site: York to Sheffield Railway - Dearne Valley Line. It tends to be post war and modern era, but some interesting stuff pops up and you might pose your question again there. A lot of local people and local history groups there to.

[Nick Lawson]

@GWRSwindonCatching up on this late in the day...

 

For info on GCR trains, go to ... the Midland Rwy Study Centre! https://midlandrailwaystudycentre.org.uk/catalogue.php

Look for a WTT for your period and ask the kind and helpful staff for the relevant pages. I believe not all have been digitised, but you may be lucky. I'm also modelling S & K, but 1923 vintage and this worked for me as they supplied a 1922 WTT.

 

From this I can see for example that in 1922 GCR goods trains ("class A" and "class B") worked to and from "Milford" to the north of Knottingley, so they did indeed pass through the latter, contrary to your earlier information. 

 

According to "Swinton & Knottingley Railway" by D.L.Franks, (a slim but sometimes useful volume),  "Before the grouping the exchange point between the North Eastern and the Great Central used to be South Milford, where the G.C. maintained a yard and shunting staff."

 

(There was also a nearby Milford Junction with the Leeds-Selby line, on which the NE had their own marshaling yard at Gascoigne Wood).

 

For the GCR, the 1922 WTT also shows various light engine movements to Milford and, further south, a mineral working to/from Hickleton Colliery and a cattle working from Wakefield to Sheffield that joined the S&K at Moorthorpe North Junction.

 

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Nick Lawson said:

For info on GCR trains, go to ... the Midland Rwy Study Centre! https://midlandrailwaystudycentre.org.uk/catalogue.php

Look for a WTT for your period and ask the kind and helpful staff volunteers for the relevant pages. I believe not all have been digitised, but you may be lucky. I'm also modelling S & K, but 1923 vintage and this worked for me as they supplied a 1922 WTT.

 

FYI!

 

The Museum of Making has staff but the Study Centre is entirely run by volunteers, Midland Railway Society members (consider joining the society to support their work) led by the tireless Dave Harris, who combines the roles of Study Centre Coordinator and Society Secretary.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Compound2632

[Nick Lawson]

@Compound2632Alright, you've made a sale!

[Nick Lawson]

On 28/12/2020 at 18:12, GWRSwindon said:

Those 2-4-0s, 1907 Nos. 192-196, remained at York until at least 1914, having been joined by 1907 No. 191 by 1900.

@Compound2632Apologies for the incorrect attribution above! I believe it was you who supplied the information.

 

According to the 1920 MR Loco Allocations, Nos 191, 192 and 196 were still at York in that year,  joined by No 124; in addition to the 4-4-0s .

Edited August 7, 2022 by Nick Lawson
Corrected attribution.