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Hattons 66 F5 Active Braking


Johnfromoz
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Hi,  I have about 6 of the sound fitted Hattons 66s.  
 

Maybe I am reading the Hattons manual too literally in thinking the Loksound V5 Function 5 actually slows the engine, like Zimo braking function?  In all of my Hattons 66s, pressing F5 has no effect on the speed of the loco but does activate a braking sound when throttle is decreased.  Am I missing something here?

 

Using NCE Powercab for control.

 

Any ideas welcome.

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It was set on mine & I am pretty sure it was not something I activated myself.

 

Braking rate is set in CV179, the higher the number, the fiercer the brake. 255 stops almost immediately, 0 is no different to just letting the loco coast to a stop.

With CV179 set to 128, my 66 stopped in half the distance of just allowing it to coast.

 

If my understanding of the Zimo & Loksound manuals are correct, ESU & Zimo go about this feature differently: Activating Zimo's brake feature enables an alternative deceleration rate defined in CV349 which replaces CV4.

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If you want to slow the locomotive down by simply pressing F5 without moving the throttle, you need to determine what speed it should slow down to. This is specified in CV 182.

If you want it to come to a halt set CV 182 = 0.

Saluti

Locoman

Edited by Locoman58
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Thank you locoman,

 

i had just set cv179 to 200 and it still made no difference (ie no suggestion of the loco slowing at all) so will now investigate cv182.

 

As all 6 of my V5 Hattons seem to have come from the factory this way, I am surprised others have not commented on the F5 issue.

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Are you pressing F5 and leaving it on and pressing F5 later to turn it off?

 

The active brake feature is more realistic with a PowerCab if it is set up for F2 which is the only momentary key - press and hols to keep brake on, release and brake comes off.

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My three pre owned 66s were the same, I did a full read in JMRI and found the Brake was not enabled in the Function Mapping pane, one of the brake options needed selecting for the Logical Function on row 24 of the Function Map pane.

If you don't have JMRI it is the indexed CV 16.9.372 and you need to set bit 2, 3 or 4.

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14 minutes ago, markw said:

My three pre owned 66s were the same, I did a full read in JMRI and found the Brake was not enabled in the Function Mapping pane, one of the brake options needed selecting for the Logical Function on row 24 of the Function Map pane.

If you don't have JMRI it is the indexed CV 16.9.372 and you need to set bit 2, 3 or 4.

In ESU terms this means:

Program in this order:

1. CV31 = 16,

2. CV32 = 9

3. Then READ CV 372
4. Then CV372 =  add 4 to the existing value and write

 

No need to set F5 to momentary as the ESU brake is not over-sensitive.

Edited by Locoman58
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5 hours ago, Johnfromoz said:

 

Could it be that this feature ONLY works with a momentary key?

 

It works on F5 (latching) with my Powerpro & I see no reason why a Powercab would be any different.

If you have braking rate set to be quite sharp then a momentary key makes this easier to control.

 

Putting this on F2 (& therefore the momentary key on a Powercab/Procab) is a matter of choice & requires moving the horn to a latching key, so I can understand why vendors choose to leave it on F5.

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Thanks to Locoman, MarkW and others who have unlocked this mystery.


 All 6 of mine have now been reprogrammed to make the F5 active in braking. As a non-user of JMRI I would never have worked this out. I’m betting plenty more V5 fitted Hattons 66s out there have this issue so hopefully this saga has been of use to others.

 

Some personal observations: found the most realistic, subtle braking effects in sinc with sound to be had by setting cv182 to 8 and cv179 to 1 but personal tastes will differ on this (I will use the Powercab red button for emergency stopping).  All in all though, it does no feel as intuitive or responsive as Zimo braking.  Obviously, momentary key action would improve it but I am not going to remap my 66 fleet.

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9 hours ago, Hamburger said:

Hi, thats because you chose the wrong settings.

Try CV 182 = 0 and

CV 179 between 120 and 200, value 170 would be a good choice.

I found putting a high value into cv179 produced a too abrupt braking effect, quite unrealistic. Don’t need to put 182 at 0 as not using F5 to bring loco to absolute stop.   I find the Zimo braking to be far more in keeping with momentum etc.   As stated earlier, each to their own preference.......

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Just a few thoughts..

It would take a lot of effort to work this out with JMRI. Lokprogrammer deals with it very tidily, then you can either export the CV values directly from this or use JMRI.

I agree that this provides a different feel to Zimo. After getting a little used to both, it feels like they simply have a different approach to achieve a similar effect & I am comfortable using either.

This feature is available on Loksound v4. I have added it to some of my decoders but it was already configured on others even though I was unaware of it.

 

Some further info which I felt was overload earlier but may be of interest now:

If I understand the Loksound manual correctly, it looks like it can cope with 3 braking rates, set on CV 179, 180 & 181 (Loco brakes & train brakes perhaps). If I am interpreting this correctly, there is more potential available from this decoder for anyone who wants to fiddle further.

I have not looked further into this but I guess you can assign different braking rates to different function keys? I am also unsure how it reacts if 2 of these functions are selected at the same time.

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50 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Just a few thoughts..

It would take a lot of effort to work this out with JMRI. Lokprogrammer deals with it very tidily, then you can either export the CV values directly from this or use JMRI.

I agree that this provides a different feel to Zimo. After getting a little used to both, it feels like they simply have a different approach to achieve a similar effect & I am comfortable using either.

This feature is available on Loksound v4. I have added it to some of my decoders but it was already configured on others even though I was unaware of it.

 

Some further info which I felt was overload earlier but may be of interest now:

If I understand the Loksound manual correctly, it looks like it can cope with 3 braking rates, set on CV 179, 180 & 181 (Loco brakes & train brakes perhaps). If I am interpreting this correctly, there is more potential available from this decoder for anyone who wants to fiddle further.

I have not looked further into this but I guess you can assign different braking rates to different function keys? I am also unsure how it reacts if 2 of these functions are selected at the same time.

Pete,

Good to know. Might experiment with these a little.  Another factor which seems to influence the smoothness of braking was momentum rates on cv3 & 4

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40 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 . . .

I have not looked further into this but I guess you can assign different braking rates to different function keys? I am also unsure how it reacts if 2 of these functions are selected at the same time.

Difference from V4 to V5 is that its just working the other way round.

CV 179 on the V4 was the braking TIME - the lower the value, the harder the braking.

CV 179-181 on the V5 are the braking FORCE - the lower the value, the softer the braking.

CV 179 - 181 give the percentage which is temporarily subtracted from CV4.

CV 179 = 0 means no braking,  =128 means -50%, =178 means -70%.

Example: CV4 = 100, CV 179 = 178 (70%) --> CV4 temporarily reduced to (100-70) =30.

If you use more than one brake function, percentages are added if the brake functions are active at the same time.

Example: CV4 = 100, CV 179 to 181 all set to 77 (-30%), all brakes active --> CV4 temporarily reduced to (100 - 30 - 30 -30) = 10. Means that each brake function reduces braking distance by 30%.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Just a few thoughts..

It would take a lot of effort to work this out with JMRI. Lokprogrammer deals with it very tidily, then you can either export the CV values directly from this or use JMRI.

 

 

Why would it take effort to do it in JMRI ?  JMRI has a user interface for ESU decoders which is remarkably similar to that in the LokProgrammer.     The only major difference is that the LokProgrammer hardware can read values from a decoder much faster than CV reading using any other hardware, but once the decoder values have been read, there is, to my way of looking, very little difference.  

 

- Nigel

 

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Not an answer to your question but just to add my 2p

 

ive gone through every one of my ESU sound decoders and added active braking, with the standard decel set to max.

Once you are used to it, its a bit of a game changer.

 

sounds way better when locos coast to a stop rather than come to a stand with the engine still revving.

 

worth a go if you havent tried it out :-)

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