BR Mark 1 OLE project

[Northern Electric]

Hi all,

One or two of you might know already from the Class 86 thread but, a few years back, I got into 3d printing my own OLE equipment.

The area I intend to model for my own personal layout is Crewe electric depot, so naturally there are numerous different kinds of OLE structures that I will need to make for that but, having already done much of the measurement, research and design work, it seemed pertinent asses whether there is wider interest in these products, and if so, whether it might be worthwhile seeking to produce them by other means that are more affordable to mass produce.

I am aware that there are already some products offered in terms of British outline OLE but, in my opinion, none of them are truly realistic. I have worked with N-Brass etched brass portals in the past and while they are of reasonable appearence when made up, I found them fiddly to construct and easily damaged.

 

My ultimate goal from this project is to (hopefully) achieve the following:

 

1. Showcase my models/designs and asses interest

2. Determine the most viable/popular variants to produce

3. Investigate ways of producing the models in large numbers at an affordable price

4. Bring a product, or range of products on to the marked that are A - Realistic.  B - Easy to construct, and C. Affordable for the average modeller.

 

I will shortly begin to showcase both physical and virtual examples of my previous work. I would like people to give constructive feedback on the designs and state which types of structure they would most like to be able to purchase and why.  I will be starting with the BR Mark 1 series equipment, but may look at other designs in the future such ad 1500v DC equipment or Mk3 if the project proves to be successful.

Thanks in advance for any advice, ideas and support!

 

 

Edited December 30, 2020 by NorthenElectric91

[ClikC]

Not applicable to my own area of interest, but, nevertheless interested to see any UK Outline OHLE developments.

[Dagworth]

8 minutes ago, NorthenElectric91 said:

Hi all,

One or two of you might

Yep, some of us do. 
 

Andi

[Northern Electric]

Sorry about that initial post I got distracted by something else and accidentally clicked post before having finished it!   Thought it would take more than a few minuted before people started replying...   haha lesson learned!

Edited December 30, 2020 by NorthenElectric91

[Northern Electric]

My very first attempt to replicate a structure was this multi track lattice portal.   Measurments of the legs dimensions taken at Manchester Piccadilly in 2015. This was the first physical prototype I produced.  The registration fitting I made myself from soldered 0.7mm brass wire, but the can also be 3d printed in a variety of materials.

 

[Northern Electric]

Next was two different versions of the heavy-duty tension portal that you see outside depots with the isolator switches mounted on the top, or on the mainline with the counterweights and pulleys on the automatically tensioned sections.

 

(Class 86 photo is not mine)

 

[Michael Hodgson]

Those lattice portals pretty impressive and I've always liked the WCML locos in their original electric blue livery, none of the later colour schemes are anywhere as near as attractive.  However I'm not keen on having a load of fragile knitting above my tracks, so it's not something I will be tackling.  Even if I were I would probably prefer to have some of the older 1500DC stock -Hadfield/Woodhead.

 

One advantage of OHLE is that you use it exclusively for your traction feed, you can detect trains easily from the running rails without needing the cost of going DCC

[KeithHC]

They look great well done. I will follow with interest but it would not be for my layout. However I have thought about a model of the LB&SCR overhead. In my world electrification is just an extra rail long live the 3rd rail.

 

Keith

[Pete the Elaner]

This certainly interests me.

When I have finished my WCML layout in its c1940 guise, my intention was always to store the scenic boards & re-create the same location as it was c1990.

I surveyed the area for OLE some time back. In the short section I have modelled (7' in 4mm scale), there are  portals, H masts & the RSJ style across the 4 OLE running lines. Getting it looking right will certainly be a challenge, but I am in no rush because I still have plenty to do with the c1940 version yet.

[InterCitySpud]

Thanks very much for opening this thread, as I'm hoping to start work on a large WCML set in the early 80s so this could become a great help in the not to distant future!

 

All the equipment looks fantastic, the heavy-duty tension portal especially important and looks great, I'm itching to spend long hours weathering rust!

[Northern Electric]

I would like to formally invite anyone who has any interest in OLE equipment (not just BR Mk1 style) to state their top 3 types of structure they would be most likely to buy.

For instance:   1 - Single masts.  2 - Two track portals. 3 - Tensioner portals.

 

There are so many different kinds of structure in the Mk1 style it would be impractical if not impossible to model all of them. So narrowing it down to handful of products that are the most likely to prove popular is probably a good place to start.

 

[Northern Electric]

Here are some 3d previews of my design for the Mk1 single masts, H section type.    I have not tried a test print of these yet and not sure how well they would come out due to the thin wires, however I have made some by hand, soldering the cantilever out of brass wire.  This design can be found as both H section mast and tube masts, which are more common on the Eastern region, but also used sporadically on the WCML and Glasgow suburban network.

 

Edited January 1, 2021 by NorthenElectric91

[Northern Electric]

I have successfully printed some of the tube style portals, these are a variation of one of the more common design but in the less common tubular style as can be seen on ER lines.

They can be assembled with superglue in less than 10 minutes.

[Northern Electric]

Someone commissioned me to build some booster transformer structures a while ago - these were all hand made in the tubular style, but I am in the process of designing them in CAD in the more common angled steel section design. 

Class 85 is there to illustrate scale.

[njee20]

Superb! I tried a generic portal a year or so ago (in N), it was a bit floppy before being cured, which made it a handful, but I'm planning to model a prototype location on the WCML, so a load of structures will be needed, watching your efforts with interest.

[Clive Mortimore]

54 minutes ago, NorthenElectric91 said:

Someone commissioned me to build some booster transformer structures a while ago - these were all hand made in the tubular style, but I am in the process of designing them in CAD in the more common angled steel section design. 

Class 85 is there to illustrate scale.

Your work is very nice. I am glad to see someone making OLE.

[Patriot87003]

1 hour ago, NorthenElectric91 said:

I would like to formally invite anyone who has any interest in OLE equipment (not just BR Mk1 style) to state their top 3 types of structure they would be most likely to buy.

For instance:   1 - Single masts.  2 - Two track portals. 3 - Tensioner portals.

 

There are so many different kinds of structure in the Mk1 style it would be impractical if not impossible to model all of them. So narrowing it down to handful of products that are the most likely to prove popular is probably a good place to start.

 

I have a WCML based layout (links in the signature to my thread and a few clips loaded recently on YouTube) ... and already installed basic OLE using a mix of NBrass and Dapol masts with PECO wires. I know it’s not perfectly prototypical but being primarily a layout ‘just for me’ in my shed and not for exhibitions etc, then I’m pretty content with some compromises and pleased with the results so far.

 

However, it’s on the medium to longer term to-do list to add further details ... so the option 3 Tensioner portals would be very tempting and the booster transformer structures would also tempt me.

 

May I suggest a few other items ... including the end/terminating posts (eg for sidings, terminals), also tension weights and masts.

Really good to see more items becoming available for AC electric modelling and good luck with your projects, I’ll be following ...

 

 

 

 

[Northern Electric]

Any chance you could link photos of the ones you mean as there are a number of different types of each of those structures.

 

The N-brass portals can be made to look passable if well constructed and then fitted out with suitably detailed registration fittings.   I have worked with them in the past and the main downfall (IMO) was the level of difficulty in putting them together - It takes quite a bit of skill and patience with a soldering iron and the formers not to make a hash of them.

An important part of what I want to achieve here is something that is both quick and easy to assemble, so that even modellers of average skill can do it successfully.   

 

[Michael Hodgson]

9 hours ago, NorthenElectric91 said:

 

An important part of what I want to achieve here is something that is both quick and easy to assemble, so that even modellers of average skill can do it successfully.   

 

 

A wise consideration. 

 

Much of the difficulty of modelling OHLE is connecting the wires to the masts in such a way that they hold their geometry under pressure and don't cause dewirements with the various pantograph types available, especially with model railway curves.  So it might be an idea to define some standards on mast spacing for different radius curves as well as needing to settle on the method of realistically representing the catenary/contact wires.  Do you envisage that being sectional - separate pieces between successive masts, like the Vollmer and Tri-ang products, or do  you think it can be done continuously like the prototype? 

 

I imagine the secondary catenary as used in the early WCML scheme would be particularly difficult to do accurately.

 

I suppose this year's survey of what we want the RTR trade to produce will be electrification trains!

[njee20]

I think a greater problem is the physical section of the wire required if you want it to resist the pressure of a pantograph. There are great options out there that aren’t a million miles off scale and won’t need lots of tensioning; EZ-line, jumper elastic etc, but they won’t work if you want a pantograph to ride on the wire. 
 

All of the production offerings from Sommerfeldt, Veissmann etc always look so over scale to me, and people end up physically bending the wire to accommodate over sharp curves. 
 

A whole can of worms there though, I accept!

[Northern Electric]

I know what you mean about over-scale wires.

Obviously you can get away with finer wires and support structures if they don't have to resist the pressure and drag of pantographs running along them, but you loose the possibility of powering trains through the OLE or accommodating height changes at bridges, level crossings etc.  But is that something most people actually want?

 

Certainly all the equipment from Sommerfeldt, Peco etc. is designed to accommodate that, so I will be interested to learn what the consensus is about working systems vs cosmetic systems.

I personally have nothing against cosmetic systems with the pantographs being manually adjustable to sit just below the wires, but equally I'm sure some would argue if it isn't a working system them it isn't realistic...

 

My initial thoughts didn't really include the production of the wire spans or geometric fitting tools - I was planning more along the lines of just designing the portals and masts to fit with the existing wire spans and fitting tools already on offer from Sommerfeldt.

Wire spans aren't within the remit of 3d printing and would be going into an area of manufacture I know nothing about.

Though I will concur that some finer (and cheaper) wire spans on offer would make the whole concept of electrified layouts both more realistic and more affordable.

[Pete the Elaner]

5 hours ago, njee20 said:

I think a greater problem is the physical section of the wire required if you want it to resist the pressure of a pantograph. There are great options out there that aren’t a million miles off scale and won’t need lots of tensioning; EZ-line, jumper elastic etc, but they won’t work if you want a pantograph to ride on the wire. 
 

All of the production offerings from Sommerfeldt, Veissmann etc always look so over scale to me, and people end up physically bending the wire to accommodate over sharp curves. 
 

A whole can of worms there though, I accept!

 

Yes that is a big problem.

I had a conversation with Dagworth about this at a show some years ago & he pointed out something which I had not considered; RTR pantographs are sprung far too fiercely. If you can ease this off, you can manage with finer wire. Being able to only just hold up a very short pencil was the guideline he gave me.

Providing power through the pan is an issue. With only 1 or 2 small contact points & little upwards pressure, this is unlikely to be as reliable as the weight of a loco pushing down on 4 wheels per rail.

The height of a wire does vary as it passes under bridges with limited clearance, which is visible as the pan compresses a little.

 

& for what masts I want: I am a bit sceptical about the fragility of something printed in plastic. I would prefer a metal structure but this would either be casting or a mix of casting & etching/soldering which as previously mentioned is harder to make look good.

[Dagworth]

1 minute ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Yes that is a big problem.

I had a conversation with Dagworth about this at a show some years ago & he pointed out something which I had not considered; RTR pantographs are sprung far too fiercely. If you can ease this off, you can manage with finer wire. Being able to only just hold up a very short pencil was the guideline he gave me.

Weakening pan springs does make a big difference, the other thing that is a must is tension in the wires themselves. The problem then being that the support structures must be able to deal with that tension, and must have some means of imparting the tension too. And then, because the system is tensioned then the support structures need to be able to move when the wire does with temperature variation. All my OLE is soldered from brass, N-brass portals with scratch built suspension gear, and guitar string for the wires themselves. There is enough flex in the brass rods to deal with the movement mentioned above. Where wires enter tunnels then a spring arrangement is simple to build inside the tunnel (with more substantial structures to guide the pans on the out of sight sections, generally built out of scrap rail) but where wires start on-scene then tension becomes much more difficult. I have built a few working weight stack tensioners in 4mm, these use fishing line around the pulleys with black PVC tape to represent the weight stack itself and the fishing line disappearing through the baseboard below the weights to a spring under the board. 

More of the overhead and of the layout itself here 

 

 

Andi

[njee20]

Yes for me I always liked seeing the pantograph rising and falling with structures, but it’s one of those things which tends to be more exaggerated on a model than IRL. 

 

Good point by Andi about the springs though. That tension mast is stunning, great bit of work!

 

Personally I don’t really see any point in powering the OHLE, but fair play to anyone who does. Realism is always going to be relative - what’s more realistic; closer to scale wire, or having it powered? Is it still realistic if it’s not properly tensioned and features working neutral sections? Etc etc. Rhetorical of course - we all make our own compromises. 
 

Working in N I accept things are a bit different for me anyway. 

 

 

Edited January 2, 2021 by njee20

[InterCitySpud]

Thanks again Northern Electric, fascinating stuff and installing me with great confidence.

 

This image is exactly what I wish to recreate, a mix of track spans of this era, in this condition.

 

From my perspective in case it helps, I'm not planning on having wires but only to recreate a similar scene. In the picture the wires sort of disappear anyway and as my plan is for a scale mile at scale speeds with full length consists it would only be a blur! Having a set pantograph somewhere about right will be fine.