BR Mark 1 OLE project

[Northern Electric]

Here is a link to the first survey, all feedback appreciated. It should take less than 2 minutes to complete.

Cheers

 

https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/SLDCHD3

[Clive Mortimore]

46 minutes ago, Northern Electric said:

Here is a link to the first survey, all feedback appreciated. It should take less than 2 minutes to complete.

Cheers

 

https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/SLDCHD3

First I like the work you have done.

 

Second survey completed.

[Southwich]

Also completed - and PM sent.

 

Kind regards,

 

Will

[Johnson Street IEMD]

Survey completed here too..

 

I was at Chester yesterday at the Making Tracks event - an interesting spectacle of OLE to be seen there:

 

 

Kat@johnsonstreetIEMD

 

[BelsteadLane]

All good work going on here!
 

Survey completed 

[Joseph_Pestell]

On 02/01/2021 at 19:25, boxbrownie said:

From memories of my Triang/Hornby Electra whizzing under the robust and very heavily unreal OHE at the time I still remember turning the lights off in the lounge and watching the genuine sparks fly as the Loco raced around the oval and the pan jumped on the jointed wires....that’s all I needed back then, now it’s different I have collected a lot of Dapol OHLE single masts and wires from their recent sales, the stuff was at a third of the price mostly so I just bulk bought......sort of the model railway enthusiasts version of pandemic panic buying 

 

But I am still going to need the double track spans which have been promised and not yet materialised from either Dapol or PECO (and have a feeling they never will).......so yes I am in the market for half a dozen double track mast assemblies as I am well past being able (or having the patience) to assemble from lengths of brass rod/section/tube.

 

This a typical chicken/egg situation which seems to arise frequently with model railway manufacturers. Will they never learn?

 

They bring out half a range of equipment. That does not sell because half-a-range is of no good to anyone. They then conclude that "there is no demand" and end up selling off at discount.

[boxbrownie]

9 hours ago, DBC90024 said:

Survey completed here too..

 

I was at Chester yesterday at the Making Tracks event - an interesting spectacle of OLE to be seen there:

 

 

Kat@johnsonstreetIEMD

 

Made from laser cut card I believe.

[Joseph_Pestell]

On 04/08/2021 at 20:37, Northern Electric said:

Poll will follow shortly.

 

NB, once I have the test prints done and assembled, if anyone would like to purchase those prototypes, please PM me.

Being 3d printed they are not the cheapest, but I will sell them at cost price and it will help me to recoup some out of pocket expenses and continue to develop this project further.

Also, (bit of a long shot perhaps) but if anyone has any old technical drawings of the MK1 OLE, or contacts at NR who might, please let me know as this could prove extremely useful!

Cheers

 

I am the first to recognise that creating surveys is difficult. So this is not meant to be negative in spirit.

 

But I find it almost impossible to answer. How do I put just three items for that first question? All, with the possible exception of four-track portals, would be needed for a realistic rendition of OLE on a large layout. One could leave out the transformer equipment and tensioning on a small, simple layout.

[boxbrownie]

13 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I am the first to recognise that creating surveys is difficult. So this is not meant to be negative in spirit.

 

But I find it almost impossible to answer. How do I put just three items for that first question? All, with the possible exception of four-track portals, would be needed for a realistic rendition of OLE on a large layout. One could leave out the transformer equipment and tensioning on a small, simple layout.

This is true, and in my case I am only interested in the multitrack gantries and some equipment as I already have a load of cheaply bought Dapol single masts and wires thus my answers probably skew the survey a bit.

[Clive Mortimore]

52 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I am the first to recognise that creating surveys is difficult. So this is not meant to be negative in spirit.

 

But I find it almost impossible to answer. How do I put just three items for that first question? All, with the possible exception of four-track portals, would be needed for a realistic rendition of OLE on a large layout. One could leave out the transformer equipment and tensioning on a small, simple layout.

Hi Joseph,

 

Only if you have under 14 mast with no crossovers or sidings which are wired up as well. It actually works out less than 14, the first 4 are for the overlap, the next nine are "standard" mast and the last one  is the anchor point. Bung in features like over bridges, stations and level crossings and the mast stop being "standard". I have drawn the mast for Witham station as they were circa 2005, in a distance about 2 miles there are 48 non standard mast between the last standard mast at the Hatfield Peverel end to the first standard mast at the Kelvedon end.

[Clive Mortimore]

On 10/01/2021 at 03:31, Northern Electric said:

Very nice OLE drawings and EMU projects there!

May I ask where you got the dimensions for those from?

 

Most of the measurements for the portals I have made so far, I either took myself (where safe and legal) and also from information in the original 1960 BTCC Electrification Conference Papers. - A long but interesting read for anyone interested in the technical aspects of the early 25kv system.

If anyone has any other useful and relevant design/dimensions info (or contacts at Network Rail!) then please make it known as it could be a help.

 

Sorry I missed this post.

 

The basic dimensions all come from various BR drawings which have come my way over the years. Knowing things like the nominal height and stagger places the contact wire in the right place above the rails, with that as a datum everything else falls into place when drawing from a photo. Please PM me with any request I will try and help if I have the information.

 

The 1960 conference papers are excellent. I found them very helpful for sorting out the under gubbins on EMUs.

[Pete the Elaner]

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Joseph,

 

Only if you have under 14 mast with no crossovers or sidings which are wired up as well. It actually works out less than 14, the first 4 are for the overlap, the next nine are "standard" mast and the last one  is the anchor point. Bung in features like over bridges, stations and level crossings and the mast stop being "standard". I have drawn the mast for Witham station as they were circa 2005, in a distance about 2 miles there are 48 non standard mast between the last standard mast at the Hatfield Peverel end to the first standard mast at the Kelvedon end.

 

I completely agree with this point. There are several different types of configuration.

I am currently working on a small (7' in OO scale) section of WCML c1940, but my intention was always to re-build the scenic section it in the AC electric era.

I am modelling a real section & I want to make the OLE as accurate as possible. I surveyed the area's OLE some time ago.

Along the short section, there is a mixture of masts & portals of the lattice & RSJ type. In some cases, the supports are closer together than I would have expected & the catenary wires (not the contact wires) are lowered for the tunnels at one end & for the road bridge (& in the case of one pair of lines, for the station building) at the other. My scenic section has no pointwork either.

Along open sections of line, we may want support after support to be the same, but few of us actually model this. Junctions require all sorts of configurations.

 

One thing I have not seen mentioned is compound catenary. My section had it in the period I want to depict it, so I should really model it....somehow.

[Pete the Elaner]

14 hours ago, Northern Electric said:

Here is a link to the first survey, all feedback appreciated. It should take less than 2 minutes to complete.

Cheers

 

https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/SLDCHD3

 

Survey completed.

After reading a few comments (particularly Clive's about there being such a wide variety of OLE equipment), it seems a that some sort of modular kit system may be more usable. Just how easy it will be to manufacture is another matter.

[Northern Electric]

13 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I am the first to recognise that creating surveys is difficult. So this is not meant to be negative in spirit.

 

But I find it almost impossible to answer. How do I put just three items for that first question? All, with the possible exception of four-track portals, would be needed for a realistic rendition of OLE on a large layout. One could leave out the transformer equipment and tensioning on a small, simple layout.

 

I appreciate that what the modelling community needs is a decent RANGE of products but, unfortunately, I can't start by launching a dozen different products at once, the cost would be prohibitive. 

Thats not to say that isn't the ultimate goal however.  But obviously it makes sense to START with the products that are likely to prove most popular and profitable and work upwards from there, rather than vice versa.

 

Thank you for anyone who has so far taken the survey.     I must get down to Chester to see that massive layout!

[Joseph_Pestell]

7 hours ago, Northern Electric said:

 

I appreciate that what the modelling community needs is a decent RANGE of products but, unfortunately, I can't start by launching a dozen different products at once, the cost would be prohibitive. 

Thats not to say that isn't the ultimate goal however.  But obviously it makes sense to START with the products that are likely to prove most popular and profitable and work upwards from there, rather than vice versa.

 

Thank you for anyone who has so far taken the survey.     I must get down to Chester to see that massive layout!

 

Yes, I appreciate the issues involved in launching a complete range at once. 

 

But the alternative is no better. You create part of a range. Most buyers hold off from buying until they can get all that they need and you end up holding a lot of stock.

 

There is also a trade-off between development cost and manufacturing cost. The cheaper methods of production involve more investment up front by way of tooling.

 

For my part, I would stick with low development cost and go for etched components. Well designed, you could get a lot of components on an etched sheet. The issue here is making it easy for folks to assemble, whether by soldering or gluing.

 

It may be that 3D printing becomes a lot cheaper/quicker which would alter the equation.

[Joseph_Pestell]

18 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

 

 

One thing I have not seen mentioned is compound catenary. My section had it in the period I want to depict it, so I should really model it....somehow.

 

As regards the wires, compound catenary should still be available from ScaleLink. If not in stock, Helen will probably be able to get some etched.

The original is actually 1.5kV French and scaled to HO.

[Northern Electric]

11 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Yes, I appreciate the issues involved in launching a complete range at once. 

 

But the alternative is no better. You create part of a range. Most buyers hold off from buying until they can get all that they need and you end up holding a lot of stock.

 

 

You mean like Peco and Dapol did?    haha

 

 

I do take your point, but I'm not so sure if that's really how "most" people buy things. (?) 

From what I've seen, most people build their layouts gradually over a period of a few years (or more) and buy parts as/when needed, rather than up-front and in bulk.  

Certainly there will be SOME people who build that way, but I don't know if I'd describe them as the majority. You have to have substantial disposable income to do it that way which is not the case for everyone.  Your more average modeller has to spread the costs out over time with smaller purchases to suit their budget.  

 

In any case, I think if it is made clear to buyers that the intention is to release further structures to make up a range over time, that makes it easier for people to plan ahead with their projects and less likely to hold off on that basis.

 

 

[dmu 156]

I'm the person who installed the OLE on the Chester Cathedral layout and I agree with the comments in the posts regarding the variety of structures and components used on the network so to produce them in model form commercially would be an impossible task. As a train driver who has worked under the wires on the WCML,  ECML and the Woodhead line I have looked closely at what could done in model form using a basic set of components. The Chester layout lattice structures are a series of laser cut parts from 1mm MDF and superglued together forming the structures you see in the videos and pictures of the layout. The brackets are made using simple jigs from 1mm x 1mm brass angle to which are soldered 0.7mm brass wire for the main vertical and angled supports with the registration arm being 0.5mm brass wire, the insulators are from the Sommerfeldt range, the brackets are simply superglued to the structures. The cantilever masts and catenary wires are from Peco which are made by Sommerfeldt for Peco. The tricky part is the tensioner assemblies, these are working models which are part of the tensioning system I've fitted to the layout. I made these from 3mm x 3mm brass 'H' section, various bits of brass sheet and brass rod all soldered together in a specific order so as to reduce the chance of unsoldering the previous component. The pulley wheels are a different matter, I have my own lathe so I can make my own at 4mm diameter x 0.8mm from brass rod, if the pullies were available to buy as a pack of 'x' amount then most modellers would be able to produce a pretty good representation of OLE as everything else is available.

[Dagworth]

This video dates back to 2009 and is using pulleys etched for me by Brian Hanson. 

 

More details on the youtube description.

 

Andi

Edited August 10, 2021 by Dagworth

[dmu 156]

The pulley wheels look fantastic. 

[Pete the Elaner]

1 hour ago, dmu 156 said:

I'm the person who installed the OLE on the Chester Cathedral layout and I agree with the comments in the posts regarding the variety of structures and components used on the network so to produce them in model form commercially would be an impossible task. As a train driver who has worked under the wires on the WCML,  ECML and the Woodhead line I have looked closely at what could done in model form using a basic set of components. The Chester layout lattice structures are a series of laser cut parts from 1mm MDF and superglued together forming the structures you see in the videos and pictures of the layout. The brackets are made using simple jigs from 1mm x 1mm brass angle to which are soldered 0.7mm brass wire for the main vertical and angled supports with the registration arm being 0.5mm brass wire, the insulators are from the Sommerfeldt range, the brackets are simply superglued to the structures. The cantilever masts and catenary wires are from Peco which are made by Sommerfeldt for Peco. The tricky part is the tensioner assemblies, these are working models which are part of the tensioning system I've fitted to the layout. I made these from 3mm x 3mm brass 'H' section, various bits of brass sheet and brass rod all soldered together in a specific order so as to reduce the chance of unsoldering the previous component. The pulley wheels are a different matter, I have my own lathe so I can make my own at 4mm diameter x 0.8mm from brass rod, if the pullies were available to buy as a pack of 'x' amount then most modellers would be able to produce a pretty good representation of OLE as everything else is available.

 

I saw the layout on Saturday & had hoped to speak to you about the OLE which, having previously tried making it myself some years ago, I was very impressed with.

Pete pointed you out but you seemed busy for the whole time I was there. I did see you point out the tensioners inside the tunnels & you mentioned heat expansion, which is something I will have to cope with.

[dmu 156]

You should have come and spoke to me I would have been happy to answer any questions. I'm back there Monday 16th and Tuesday 17th August

[boxbrownie]

One of the magazines did a video of the Chester Cathedral layout with Pete showing the various details and it covered much of the catenary system in fair detail, very impressive and a great solution to a difficult modelling task.

[dmu 156]

Thank you, a new video of the Chester layout was posted 20hrs ago by Phil Clark it shows the 86s running with  Sommerfeldt pans up and 87s running with the Judith Edge 'crossarm' pans up.

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, dmu 156 said:

Thank you, a new video of the Chester layout was posted 20hrs ago by Phil Clark it shows the 86s running with  Sommerfeldt pans up and 87s running with the Judith Edge 'crossarm' pans up.

Posted where?