The odd tale of the Co-Bo and it's price.

[cypherman]

Hi all,

The only H/D engine I have not got at least one of is the Co-Bo. So I thought I should at least get one. I nearly died at the price they are going for. Considering this was H/D's most unpopular model the prices they are going for is huge. Averaging from £150.00 to over £300.00.So I am looking for something that is basically basket case now so that I can hopefully afford it.

Edited December 31, 2020 by cypherman

[andyman7]

Is it ebay you've been looking at? They can be had for much less than that if you're after a well used one, I'd normally search one down at a toyfair when they're not suspended or via a conventional auction house.

Take a look at this lot:

https://www.vectis.co.uk/lot/Hornby-dublo-2-and-3-rail-locos-and-rolling-stock-comprising_824300

Winning bid was £70, commission would have been £17.50 and Vectis would have charged around £18 to send in GB mainland. SIlver King and coaches could be sold on ebay for £30 at least. 

Good luck!

[andyman7]

Or there's this one....

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hornby-dublo-2-rail-2233-Cobo-Diesel-Electric-Great-Runner/303825051049?hash=item46bd625da9:g:XmYAAOSwej1f5ttC

[spamcan61]

As always om eBay, look at actual selling prices, not asking prices:-

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_fsrp=1&_nkw=Hornby+dublo+2+rail+2233+Co+bo&_sacat=0&_from=R40&rt=nc&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1

 

None over 100 quid

 

 

[Halvarras]

Noticed this tidy-looking example while browsing the other day........

 

https://www.thejunctionbox.net/items-for-sale/Hornby-dublo-2233/

 

 

[Ian Smeeton]

I have a three rail one if you would like to make an offer. Boxed, last tested over 30 years ago, but I could dig it out, photo it and test if you like.

 

Please PM me.

 

Regards

 

Ian

[GoingUnderground]

5 hours ago, cypherman said:

Hi all,

The only H/D engine I have not got at least one of is the Co-Bo. So I thought I should at least get one. I nearly died at the price they are going for. Considering this was H/D's most unpopular model the prices they are going for is huge. Averaging from £150.00 to over £300.00.So I am looking for something that is basically basket case now so that I can hopefully afford it.

You put your finger on the reason when you said "..Considering this was H/D's most unpopular model.."

 

It is its unpopularity that limited sales, which in turn reduced the number made, and that relative scarcity drives up prices. Take, for example, the H/D AL1/Class 81 which formed the basis for the Triang AL1 but with a slightly modified body and Triang running gear. The H/D model was only available in relatively small numbers and sells for more than the more common Triang two pantograph model, which itself is more expensive than the Triang single panto version. Whilst the most expensive one of all is a genuine 3 rail H/D AL1 where only a limited number were made and most, if not all, are reported to have been exported.

 

I was lucky enough to acquire a Co-Bo in an H/D 2 rail box overstickered with the Triang Hornby logo. I've not seen one at a swapmeet so I'm guessing it's rarer than the ones in "ordinary" H/D packaging. But there may well be more overstickered Co-Bo boxes around than I realise. 

[Michael Hodgson]

52 minutes ago, Ian Smeeton said:

I have a three rail one if you would like to make an offer. Boxed, last tested over 30 years ago, but I could dig it out, photo it and test if you like.

 

Please PM me.

 

Regards

 

Ian

 

The box seems to be worth about twenty quid.

[Silverfox17]

1 hour ago, GoingUnderground said:

was lucky enough to acquire a Co-Bo in an H/D 2 rail box overstickered with the Triang Hornby logo. I've not seen one at a swapmeet so I'm guessing it's rarer than the ones in "ordinary" H/D packaging. But there may well be more overstickered Co-Bo boxes around than I realise. 

There are quite few around as these were all found surplus in the factory when Tri-ang took them over so put the stickers on to sell off. It was one of 5 different Dublo locos sold as such. Look in the amalgamation brochure to see the others. 

 

I imagine not many are seen as collectors are holding on to them. I have one as well as a Brnstaple with an over sticker on the box. 

 

Garry 

Edited December 31, 2020 by Silverfox17

[andyman7]

20 minutes ago, Silverfox17 said:

There are quite few around as these were all found surplus in the factory when Tri-ang took them over so put the stickers on to sell off. It was one of 5 different Dublo locos sold as such. Look in the amalgamation brochure to see the others. 

 

I imagine not many are seen as collectors are holding on to them. I have one as well as a Brnstaple with an over sticker on the box. 

 

Garry 

The story of the Dublo surplus stock was a bit more involved. The first problem was the large remaining stock of 3-rail items which in no way could be sold as part of the Triang Hornby range. The stock was disposed of in trade sales to businesses such as Beatties, a K McMillar of Harrow, and of course Hattons. In 1964, the last year in which Hornby Dublo was maintained as a seperate brand, 11,414 Hornby Dublo locos were sold from stock but 12,295 remained. The situation for coaches was worse - 1964 sales were of 8,560 units but 107,950 models were clogging up the Binns Road stores, whilst 130,300 wagons remained. The big fear was of flooding the market with remaindered stock that would dilute Triang sales. The overstickered models featured in the amalgamation leaflet were only part of what was left, and much more was carefully fed out through wholesale sales right through until 1970. According to the Foster book on Dublo, the final clearance to a third party was in 1970, and this included (unstickered) CoBos. Hattons could still sell you certain new (old stock) Dublo items until the mid 1980s. The Triang-Hornby stickered stock is genuinely quite scarce in comparison and forms only a small part of the the post 1965 disposal.    

[cypherman]

3 hours ago, Ian Smeeton said:

I have a three rail one if you would like to make an offer. Boxed, last tested over 30 years ago, but I could dig it out, photo it and test if you like.

 

Please PM me.

 

Regards

 

Ian

Hi ian,

I am in negotiations for a boxed running but tatty 2 rail version(The one I want) for about £60-£70 at the moment. It runs well but needs a full repaint.

[cypherman]

Hi all,

Another Co-Bo question. Did Wrenn ever sell the Co-Bo. I have never seen one but that does not mean they did not.

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, andyman7 said:

The story of the Dublo surplus stock was a bit more involved. The first problem was the large remaining stock of 3-rail items which in no way could be sold as part of the Triang Hornby range. The stock was disposed of in trade sales to businesses such as Beatties, a K McMillar of Harrow, and of course Hattons. In 1964, the last year in which Hornby Dublo was maintained as a seperate brand, 11,414 Hornby Dublo locos were sold from stock but 12,295 remained. The situation for coaches was worse - 1964 sales were of 8,560 units but 107,950 models were clogging up the Binns Road stores, whilst 130,300 wagons remained. The big fear was of flooding the market with remaindered stock that would dilute Triang sales. The overstickered models featured in the amalgamation leaflet were only part of what was left, and much more was carefully fed out through wholesale sales right through until 1970. According to the Foster book on Dublo, the final clearance to a third party was in 1970, and this included (unstickered) CoBos. Hattons could still sell you certain new (old stock) Dublo items until the mid 1980s. The Triang-Hornby stickered stock is genuinely quite scarce in comparison and forms only a small part of the the post 1965 disposal.    

 

I believe that Hattons actually found a "new" Hornby Dublo EMU in their stores when they moved from Smithdown Road...

 

[PatB]

I've started to find (maybe it was ever thus and I just hadn't noticed) that, for anything "collectable", Ebay is a vast swamp of overpriced rubbish, with genuine bargains few and far between, and even sensible value being notably rare. Prices on specialist dealers' websites are often far more reasonable, the descriptions certainly seem more honest, and the stock seems of better quality. I've noticed this for both UK and US examples, and in areas other than model railway stuff. 

[Silverfox17]

8 hours ago, cypherman said:

Hi all,

Another Co-Bo question. Did Wrenn ever sell the Co-Bo. I have never seen one but that does not mean they did not.

No, Wrenn did not do any of the diecast diesels or tinplate items. They did advertise doing the SD coaches in blood and custard, the 6 wheel stove and EMU but they never materialised. Pure HD suburbans SD green and maroon were put in 2-6-4 sets with some HD wagons to use up old stock. They also sold a Castle and 3 pullmans in a set along with the 2-8-0 and some frieght wagons, no set had track but those were all old HD items still with HD couplings not Wrenn produced. Those 3 locos were the first made by Wrenn and I cannot remember if the locos in those sets were Dublo or Wrenn ones. Wrenns own production sets came later with Tri-ang couplings fitted. Wrenn did make the BoBo diesel but with their own motor bogie design not Dublos. The A4 used a Tri-ang tender so they did not use the Dublo tinplate version. 

 

Garry 

Edited January 1, 2021 by Silverfox17

[GoingUnderground]

8 hours ago, cypherman said:

Hi all,

Another Co-Bo question. Did Wrenn ever sell the Co-Bo. I have never seen one but that does not mean they did not.

A not unreasonable question given that Wrenn produced various Ex-H/D items. But think about it, if the H/D original was unpopular and hard to shift, there would have been little financial sense in making it again even with with the diecast body. According to Michael Foster, only 130 Co-Bos were sold in 1964 and 3,150 were in stock when Lines Bros/Triang took over Meccano/Hornby Dublo. Or to put it another way, Triang had enough Co-Bos for 24 years worth of sales. Some must have been moved from Binns Road to Margate as Pat Hammond says that 725 were taken into stock at Margate, and I'm guessing these would have been the Triang Hornby overstickered examples. Triang did have some success in moving them, they included a coupling converter wagon in the price, and apparently had sold all but 120 by the end of 1966. How long they remained on retailers' shelves is another matter. This information would have filtered down, I'm sure, to Wrenn in Basildon one way or another.

 

The Co-Bo wasn't an attractive looking model at least not to my eyes, and I wasn't alone as reviews in the model railway press at the time weren't particularly flattering either. The Class 28 locos under BR had a reputation for engine problems. It was a small class, only 20 were built. So, it is unlikely that it would have been a modeller's first choice when wondering which loco to buy next.

 

Strangely, the 1972/18th edition of the Triang Hornby/Hornby Railways catalogue featured the Terence Cuneo painting of a Co-Bo on the cover, an unusual choice I remember thinking at the time as it hadn't been in the catalogue for several years and wasn't listed in the retail price list for 1972. Why put a loco that you don't make on the cover of your catalogue? Were Rovex thinking of putting a Class 28 back into their range, this time with a finely detailed injection moulded polystyrene body, but it never got past the concept stage? 

[GoingUnderground]

3 hours ago, PatB said:

I've started to find (maybe it was ever thus and I just hadn't noticed) that, for anything "collectable", Ebay is a vast swamp of overpriced rubbish, with genuine bargains few and far between, and even sensible value being notably rare. Prices on specialist dealers' websites are often far more reasonable, the descriptions certainly seem more honest, and the stock seems of better quality. I've noticed this for both UK and US examples, and in areas other than model railway stuff. 

There are plenty of sharks on ebay and "optimistic" descriptions. I've been caught a couple of times over the years by not looking closely enough at the photos or taking the seller's description as totally accurate when I should have realised that it wasn't.

 

Rare is a very overworked word on ebay and applied to items that aren't particularly rare at all. That might be due to the sellers's lack of knowledge about what they're selling, or them puffing up their description to support the inflated price that they're asking. 'm sure that many sellers' prices are set in the hope that eventually someone will buy the item. If there are any bargains out there, and there are some at times, it just means the seller has set the price too low because they don't realise what they're selling, or has got the description wrong and it has been missed by savvy buyers.

[cypherman]

Hi all,

Well a turn up for the books. In the latest Model Rail magazine Rapido trains are going to make an N Gauge model of the Co-Bo. I wonder if that will fare any better.

[Il Grifone]

The Co-Bo wasn't the most attractive model, but this only reflected her prototype. IIRC the model wasn't particularly cheap either. She would pull a house down, like the Deltic look-(something) like, but few people had the space to utilise her haulage power. Tri-ang's Brush was a rather more attractive proposition and, 3 rail having been killed off, being 2 rail was no longer an objection.

 I don't know if our group was typical, but we were all steam fans, something Tri-ang  and Trix seemed aware of, but Meccano Limited ignored. At the the time, I had no desire to own any of their 1960's production. I was building a GWR BLT at the time....

 I did finally acquire one about ten/fifteen years ago for £30/40 (I forget the exact price) in reasonable condition.

 

EDIT Memory fail - it was March 2013.

Edited January 1, 2021 by Il Grifone

[stewartingram]

I shall have to get mine posted for sale. A 2-rail example, repainted & unboxed. I'll take a pic later.

 

Stewart

[Hroth]

3 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

The Co-Bo wasn't an attractive looking model at least not to my eyes, and I wasn't alone as reviews in the model railway press at the time weren't particularly flattering either.

 

It was the quintessential of the "Box Diesel" and, at the time something to be thought of with hissing and cursing, its no surprise that it wasn't an object of desire!  Funnily, the shunter (class 08) and the Type 1 (class 20) seem to have been better received.

 

On the other hand, perhaps there was/is something off with the aesthetics of the Co-Bo.  I've got the Heljan version and that looks far better than the Dublo model.

 

3 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

Strangely, the 1972/18th edition of the Triang Hornby/Hornby Railways catalogue featured the Terence Cuneo painting of a Co-Bo on the cover, an unusual choice I remember thinking at the time as it hadn't been in the catalogue for several years and wasn't listed in the retail price list for 1972.

 

There have been many locos on the cover of the catalogue that Triang/Triang-Hornby/Hornby have never produced, for example Jenny Lind, City of Truro,  Jubilee as well as the MetroVic.  It may well be that there were thoughts of producing models and the catalogue cover images were an attempt to gauge demand or that financial problems strangled them at birth.

 

[GoingUnderground]

12 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

It was the quintessential of the "Box Diesel" and, at the time something to be thought of with hissing and cursing, its no surprise that it wasn't an object of desire!  Funnily, the shunter (class 08) and the Type 1 (class 20) seem to have been better received.

 

On the other hand, perhaps there was/is something off with the aesthetics of the Co-Bo.  I've got the Heljan version and that looks far better than the Dublo model.

 

 

There have been many locos on the cover of the catalogue that Triang/Triang-Hornby/Hornby have never produced, for example Jenny Lind, City of Truro,  Jubilee as well as the MetroVic.  It may well be that there were thoughts of producing models and the catalogue cover images were an attempt to gauge demand or that financial problems strangled them at birth.

 

As you say, there was something not-quite-right with the H/D model which probably put buyers off. Michael Foster cites the Model Railway Constructor review: "Its 'box-on-wheels' design is by no means the most imposing and on this model this effect is exaggerated by an obviously hollow diecast metal body, unfortunately, in this instance, without the saving grace of fine detail well executed." It really does look hollow, which I put down to the lack of depth to the underchassis equipment box. It is so clearly just a two dimensional extension of the body side.

 

Triang had only once before the 18th edition catalogue featured locos on the cover that didn't resemble one of their products. That was the 9th edition, 1963, a Cuneo painting of a Class 4 and a Grange at Saltash bridge. I can't comment on subsequent catalogue covers since 1972 as I only have a couple of post-72 ones.

[Johann Marsbar]

The Co-Bo I have was obtained, mint, boxed, from Hattons for £10 back in around 1975. It was one of the HD locos my Father didn't buy in the 1960's and I think Hattons were still advertising them in the RM at that time. We called in at their Smithdown Road shop and bought it whilst visiting relatives in the area, and they said it was the only HD loco they still had as new stock (though we also bought a new operating mail coach set for something like £3.50).

My Father wasn't interested in non-steam traction in those days, so originally the only non-steam HD items on the layout were the 08 (in a Triang-Hornby stickered box) and the "Southern" EMU.  I only ended up with the EMU because a Cycle shop here in Ipswich was remaindering HD items after they ceased production. That came in the form of a set that cost all of 30/-, as I've still got the box with the price on!

[Halvarras]

15 hours ago, andyman7 said:

The story of the Dublo surplus stock was a bit more involved. The first problem was the large remaining stock of 3-rail items which in no way could be sold as part of the Triang Hornby range. The stock was disposed of in trade sales to businesses such as Beatties, a K McMillar of Harrow, and of course Hattons. In 1964, the last year in which Hornby Dublo was maintained as a seperate brand, 11,414 Hornby Dublo locos were sold from stock but 12,295 remained. The situation for coaches was worse - 1964 sales were of 8,560 units but 107,950 models were clogging up the Binns Road stores, whilst 130,300 wagons remained. The big fear was of flooding the market with remaindered stock that would dilute Triang sales. The overstickered models featured in the amalgamation leaflet were only part of what was left, and much more was carefully fed out through wholesale sales right through until 1970. According to the Foster book on Dublo, the final clearance to a third party was in 1970, and this included (unstickered) CoBos. Hattons could still sell you certain new (old stock) Dublo items until the mid 1980s. The Triang-Hornby stickered stock is genuinely quite scarce in comparison and forms only a small part of the the post 1965 disposal.    

 

Interesting insight into the scale of the HD stock clearance problem. In my experience random items could turn up almost anywhere, even in deepest Cornwall. Around 1970 I learned that the smallest of the three Tri-ang Hornby outlets in Truro (yes, three.....I'm not sure if there is one at the moment!) had received some new HD items, I grabbed a Lowmac wagon but from memory they had some Pullmans as well. Around the same time word came in of more stock available at a Cash n Carry (remember those?) at St Columb I think........I remember it being a very long cycle ride from where I lived 3 miles the other side of Truro! That time I bought a maroon Mark 1 BG and a box of six platelayers huts - I can't recall now what else was on sale, almost certainly more coaches, but all these years later I still have one of the huts, converted to a small pumphouse.

In 1971 I found out that somebody down the road I lived in had sold some HD stock to a newly-opened small model shop in Truro (No 4?!), I blew some hard-won farm job earnings on a mint boxed diesel shunter for £2.50 but declined the AL1 electric at £4.50..................aaaarrrggghhh!

[Silverfox17]

Into the 70's we had Currys still selling new HD track and wagons, along with Tri-ang items, and a large dept store Boyes that had lots of Dublo but no locos, these were sold along side car exhausts and spares. Even our Co-oP sold Dublo (and Tri-ang and Trix) but stopped trains about mid 60's. It is amazing how many cycle shops sold Dublo, we had two in York and in the early 70's I came across one in Leeds where I bought an EMU trailer half price 10/6 and a few maroon and green SD suburbans and 4 green main line coaches. No locos again though. 

 

Garry