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Hornby Large Prairie Running probs?


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Hi All,

 

She Who Must Be Obeyed bought me a fantastic 51XX Large Prairie from Hornby for Christmas (I must have done something right this year!) . The model looks fantastic and fits in perfectly on my layout. However, when I run it, it stops at nearly every set of points and sometimes randomly on straights or curves. Its usually instantaneous and recovers itself. This is worse at slower speeds and when pulling coaches. My question is - would this improve with a "stay alive" or is this a fault and I need to return it (It came from Rails of Sheffield)?

 

Happy New Year Everyone!!

 

Clive 

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I and others had a similar experience. Stay Alives will help ( I added Youchoos Supercaps)......but you will probably have to make other adjustments

 

They are quite light locos....try adding additional weight ...I added over 70 gm.

 

The pony bogie doesnt have enough play which can cause derailment problems but it also contribuites to stalling.......if the the track is at all uneven the pony wheels will lift the unsprung centre axle clear of the track! I and  other owners have filed down the bogie to provide more movement. I think the keeper plate is also screwed on too tight .....I eased the screws and this helps as well.
 

Performance improves as the motor beds in.....I had to run mine a lot trying to sort things out

 

I had to spend far more time tinkering with these Prairies than any other recently purchased models. There is a marked contrast between their  out of the box performance and Dapol’s Mogul.........however time and the adjustments do pay off........I have three and performance for all is now excellent and the stalling has disappeared.

 

HTH

 

Best wishes


 

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27 minutes ago, john dew said:

I and others had a similar experience. Stay Alives will help ( I added Youchoos Supercaps)......but you will probably have to make other adjustments

 

They are quite light locos....try adding additional weight ...I added over 70 gm.

 

The pony bogie doesnt have enough play which can cause derailment problems but it also contribuites to stalling.......if the the track is at all uneven the pony wheels will lift the unsprung centre axle clear of the track! I and  other owners have filed down the bogie to provide more movement. I think the keeper plate is also screwed on too tight .....I eased the screws and this helps as well.
 

Performance improves as the motor beds in.....I had to run mine a lot trying to sort things out

 

I had to spend far more time tinkering with these Prairies than any other recently purchased models. There is a marked contrast between their  out of the box performance and Dapol’s Mogul.........however time and the adjustments do pay off........I have three and performance for all is now excellent and the stalling has disappeared.

 

HTH

 

Best wishes


 

Excuse the ignorance of a Newbie, but what is the keeper plate?

 

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Hi

 

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you.

 

The keeper plate is attached to the underside of the chassis and retains the wheel set in position. Hopefully this photo will help. There are 4 retaining screws......the one next to the clearance bulge for the centre axle/gearss is the one that was too tight.

 

Ignore the normally unseen aspect of my weathering!

 

Happy New Year

 

IMG_1142.JPG.872aa320a610e18628541d86bc3b2903.JPG

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Manufacturers are pushing up prices way beyond inflation for locos. Even the most basic engines are more than £100 and the more complex models are all North of £150. With these prices, pe4formance such as you describe is unacceptable. The "Sam's trains" channel has a lot to say about that and I agree with him. You shouldn't have to make such intrusive adjustments to brand new locos.

I'd just return it and buy something else.

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2 hours ago, ikcdab said:

Manufacturers are pushing up prices way beyond inflation for locos. Even the most basic engines are more than £100 and the more complex models are all North of £150. With these prices, pe4formance such as you describe is unacceptable. The "Sam's trains" channel has a lot to say about that and I agree with him. You shouldn't have to make such intrusive adjustments to brand new locos.

I'd just return it and buy something else.

This is what I'm thinking (just watched the Sam's Trains video! That's exactly what my loco is doing.) I don't mind "minor adjustments" but starting to do anything more , especially as a novice to this, is intimidating at the least and, as you rightly say, at the price (this was DCC Fitted at £129.50) anything more than minor adjustments really shouldn't be necessary.

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I am absolutely staggered at the truly appalling quality and running performance of so much of this pretty expensive stuff.
 

I too have browsed Sam’s trains and virtually everything he reviews either runs badly, needs fettling, is badly finished, or has bits loose in the box. And this is for hundred pound items.

 

Luckily, for the manufacturers, at least many here are gifted  with the fortitude and skill to fix what should have been done by the sloppy and dishonest Chinese manufacturers.

 

I know we can blame lack of QA on the commissioners and sellers but frankly QA in China is a waste of time - the minute you walk away they just do what they want. As well as stealing your IP if you provided any. I know as it has happened to a business I worked in a former corporate life, to the tune of tens of millions.

 

Send the stuff back is an obvious call, but again I know that sometimes it’s just easier to fix it - and in any case we of course would rather have it than not.

 

However if there is a duty on all of us for 2021 it is to call out this rubbish for what it is. These people are laughing at us.

 

Sorry for a bit of a rant, but I’ve been through half a dozen (supposedly decent make) LED bulbs in the last month around the house and it’s just the same story. 

Edited by 97xx
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Thanks for all the comments and advice. After discussion with a few people I've decided repairs are a little beyond my novice status. I've spoken to Rails of Sheffield (who have been brilliant about this!) and decided to exchange it for a Dapol Mogul.  Hopefully this one will be fine!

 

Clive

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I wonder if some running in before testing these new locos would be beneficial, 15 minutes clockwise forwards with a light trailing load, 15 minutes clockwise reverse then repeat for anti clockwise.   Quick search for the bits which fell off then test it.   My last loco, a Heljan 1361 was dire initially but ran really smoothly after an hour and continues to be smooth despite seldom running more than about 6 feet from its lair and pushing 7 coaches, close to its limit at walking speeds as its regular duty.   Previously an Oxford Dean Gods ran beautifully out of the box then started shorting out, and before that a T9 kept derailing, 3/4 maybe more years later its in bits again.   We have a new Prairie. I haven't dared do any more than a brief run. The previous model needed Triang axles to make it work smoothly and the old Dapol  needed an X04 and Triang axles, but the Farish needed a new Triang Chassis 40 years ago and with a Wills 61X still outperforms the new ones, for power and smoothness, essential as their principal duties are banking,  Its not a great reflexion on modern locos that most of the actual train hauling on the layout seems to be done by the locos we had when the layout was started around 1985.

Oh well back to bodging the T9  I know its 3.30 am but I seem to have turned nocturnal with Lock down.

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Way off topic but Twenty minutes later the T9 is sorted, There were blobs on top of the bogie which should align with the chassis.  however even with good traction tyres and the bogie spring removed there is no clearance between bogie and chassis with all the wheels on the rails.   The bogie only lets the chassis run with the front to the right or left of centre and with some of the weight off the driiving wheels which then derail on points. I filed the blobs off and its seems to be Ok, except I broke a minute bogie pick up wire.

No way can I attempt to fix that before a good sleep.

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The comments on quality control are justified but remember that you get what you pay for.  There are very expensive models also sourced from China that do not have quality issues.  These though are a lot more expensive than your "basic" 150 pound sterling models.  The company specifies the degree of quality control and this is set in the sale price.  A typical loco these days has a MSRP around 150 GBP,  although of late the price has risen to around 220 GBP.  Do not expect a more reliable model simply because the price has increased.  It is up to the manufacturer to ensure that the level of QC is adequate.  I believe that Rapido actually test run every model,  but then Rapido are generally more expensive than your typical Hornby model.  Given that both Hornby and Bachmann models seem to be around the same selling price I wonder just why Bachmann seems to have a better reliability reputation.   I have purchased literally hundreds of model locomotives and I always breathe a sigh of relief when a Hornby model arrives without detached parts and actually runs reliably out of the box.  On the other hand I am surprised when a Bachmann model actually has an issue.

 

As I live half a world away from the UK,  any "defective" model is generally fixed inhouse rather than returned for a replacement.  The solitary model returned was a Heljan 0-6-0 that proved to be a basket case and due the pandemic the replacement process took four months and cost me the return postage to the UK.  Even though I requested that the replacement model be test run prior shipping,  the model received was also defective,  requiring the hand of God to get it moving plus a lot of fettling.   My experiences have altered my views on further new loco purchases as I have no confidence in the quality of the product received.

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Update!  I have received my Dapol Mogul (DCC Sound fitted, 6336) which is to replace the Large Prairie!!

 

It looks Awesome! Really impressed with the model it s stunning.

 

It sounds awesome! The DCC sound is really good!

 

Sadly, It doesn't run!!!!  :(

 

The "hand of God" can get the motor to turn but it stops as soon as its on its own :(

 

Very quick response from Dapol who are going to try and get it working for me! So it's going back to their service centre. Fingers crossed it's something simple and can be sorted.

 

However, when paying so much money for something its sad that we have to go through all this to get a working model!

 

I'll keep you all posted, but Dapol  have said it could take 10 weeks!

 

Hey Ho!

 

 

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On 27/02/2021 at 11:26, Combe Martin said:

I presume from this that your layout is DCC, do all your other locos work reliably all the time ? 

 

Hi, Yes all others work fine

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7 minutes ago, Combe Martin said:

When this loco is running are there any other locos on the layout (a powered part) at the same time ?

Iniitially there were but when i had the problems I took the other loco off, made no difference

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Just wondering what are these other locos you have?   Do they all run well?  It just seems to be particularly bad luck to have two new locos work so badly.   Was there any feedback from "Rails" about what was wrong with the Prairie.  I can't help thinking you gave up too soon, I have spent at least 3 years trying to make a decent loco from the T9 and the end is in sight, it's just that I've lost several small parts in the process....

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The reason I ask is that I once all of a sudden had a problem where a number of locos (that there had previously been no problem with and fitted with a variety of decoders) started to stop and then start randomly at certain places on my layout.  After a while I twigged that it was after I'd introduced a new loco that was now sitting in a siding along with about 20 other locos. All of these were fitted with decoders (a variety of makes, Lenz, Digitrax, ZTC , Bachmann, TCS).  I removed the new loco from the track and then every  other loco ran normally. 

 

Id just fitted the new loco (a Hornby Std Class 4 which incidentally runs beautifully just like a well oiled sowing machine, the smoothest running loco I've got)  with a Hornby R8249 decoder (one I had'nt tried before).  It seemed to me that the new Hornby decoder must have been creating some sort of 'noise' on the DCC circuit that was affecting some but not all other decoders.    

 

I rang Hornby and they replaced the R8249 but it only fixed the problem partially. Slightly less of my other decoders were affected.  I talked to the nice Hornby man and he suggested that I fit filters to the ends of my DCC power bus.  This fixed the problem.  My layout is  a double track main line roundy roundy but with a break in the power circuit (both track and Wiring Bus)  at one end. So the power circuit is affectively a U shape.  These filters can be bought ready made but can be home made from 2 components bought from Maplins for a couple of pounds. 

 

I have seen similar problems being raised on here by a few people, one of whom said that all of a sudden loads of his affected decoders of one particular make had all gone faulty at the same time, a very unlikely situation I think.  

Edited by Combe Martin
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46 minutes ago, Combe Martin said:

The reason I ask is that I once all of a sudden had a problem where a number of locos (that there had previously been no problem with and fitted with a variety of decoders) started to stop and then start randomly at certain places on my layout.  After a while I twigged that it was after I'd introduced a new loco that was now sitting in a siding along with about 20 other locos. All of these were fitted with decoders (a variety of makes, Lenz, Digitrax, ZTC , Bachmann, TCS).  I removed the new loco from the track and then every  other loco ran normally. 

 

Id just fitted the new loco (a Hornby Std Class 4 which incidentally runs beautifully just like a well oiled sowing machine, the smoothest running loco I've got)  with a Hornby R8249 decoder (one I had'nt tried before).  It seemed to me that the new Hornby decoder must have been creating some sort of 'noise' on the DCC circuit that was affecting some but not all other decoders.    

 

I rang Hornby and they replaced the R8249 but it only fixed the problem partially. Slightly less of my other decoders were affected.  I talked to the nice Hornby man and he suggested that I fit filters to the ends of my DCC power bus.  This fixed the problem.  My layout is  a double track main line roundy roundy but with a break in the power circuit (both track and Wiring Bus)  at one end. So the power circuit is affectively a U shape.  These filters can be bought ready made but can be home made from 2 components bought from Maplins for a couple of pounds. 

 

I have seen similar problems being raised on here by a few people, one of whom said that all of a sudden loads of his affected decoders of one particular make had all gone faulty at the same time, a very unlikely situation I think.  

Interesting, I will investigate!

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1 hour ago, DavidCBroad said:

Just wondering what are these other locos you have?   Do they all run well?  It just seems to be particularly bad luck to have two new locos work so badly.   Was there any feedback from "Rails" about what was wrong with the Prairie.  I can't help thinking you gave up too soon, I have spent at least 3 years trying to make a decent loco from the T9 and the end is in sight, it's just that I've lost several small parts in the process....

A variety of locos from Hornby Collectors Club Centenary 0-4-0 ( which runs brilliantly) Bachman Class 40, Bachman Blue Peter, Bachman 4MT (probably the best of all of them) Hornby Hogwarts Castle, Bachmann Warship. All run fine. 

 

Maybe I did give up a little early on this which is why I'm letting Dapol have a look at the Mogul, Rails offered no explanation just exchanged it. As a newbie I didn't feel confident at all with all the fiddles and tweeks people suggested - Not saying they wouldn't have worked, just that I didn't feel confident doing them. I'm eagerly awaiting the report on the mogul!

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The filters I'm describing are a capacitor and resister soldered together in series and then connected across the 2 wires of the DCC bus at each of its ends.  There is a web site by a gentleman called Brian Lambert.  He has a big section on it about DCC wiring etc.  and he discusses filters there and what values of capacitor and resister to use.  There are pictures as well.

 

Google will find it.

 

The bit about filters is a little way down the DCC section.

 

 

Edited by Combe Martin
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8 hours ago, Combe Martin said:

The filters I'm describing are a capacitor and resister soldered together in series and then connected across the 2 wires of the DCC bus at each of its ends.  There is a web site by a gentleman called Brian Lambert.  He has a big section on it about DCC wiring etc.  and he discusses filters there and what values of capacitor and resister to use.  There are pictures as well.

 

Google will find it.

 

The bit about filters is a little way down the DCC section.

 

 

OK, I've had a read and it sounds like it won't do any harm and may improve things so I'll give them a go.

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Good News!  The Mogul has been sorted by DCC Supplies (warranty workshop for Dapol). Pickups were faulty and decoder replaced and it now runs perfectly, Can't wait to get it back and running around Lyneworth! Big thanks to Dapol and DCC Supplies! Any problems now are obviously my track laying! lol!!

 

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