Buying and Selling models to/from Europe

[Bernard Lamb]

9 minutes ago, admiles said:

 

 

 

I find the words of various ministers who claimed "EU nationals have nothing to fear from Brexit" to be somewhat revolting. 

 

 

I try to keep it polite on this forum.

You should hear what a few German friends have to say about the situation.

They are mainly German women who have married English men and believe you me the language is very unladylike.

Bernard

 

[Geep7]

1 hour ago, admiles said:

 

Bernard,

 

I've potentially being split up from my family too. I have a German mother who has had her settled status application rejected (no reason given). This despite living in the UK since 1967, being given indefinite leave to stay (which is now not recognized by HMG), having worked her entire career in the UK as a teacher, so in effect for the local authority, and having been married to a UK national. She now faces being separated from her children and grandchildren at the age of 76 and is terrified.  She is now trying to appeal the decision at great cost both financially and emotionally.

 

I find the words of various ministers who claimed "EU nationals have nothing to fear from Brexit" to be somewhat revolting. 

 

 

I'm at a loss for words. Never mind worrying about getting hold of "toy trains" from Europe, this is immeasurably worse, and I can't imagine what you are all going through.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Geep7

[5944]

1 hour ago, Kylestrome said:

 

And, if you do that, which customs channel are you going to go through when you return to the UK?

If it's less than £390, then nothing to declare! 

 

3 hours ago, Ravenser said:

This should really only be an issue with small businesses and private individuals . The issue for modellers is that model shops and specialist trade on the Continent are almost all small businesses and private individuals....

Exactly. I've seen a few bits on Facebook that I wouldn't mind buying. The guy is selling them privately, so shouldn't need to pay VAT on them. But if I order them, I'll have to pay import VAT when it arrives. So £100 worth of building kits becomes probably £150 with all the add ons. Not worth it. 

[Allegheny1600]

Hi Everyone,

As the moderator for this section, I feel obliged to remind that we don’t stray into “politics”!
You may note that my location indicates that I am now living as an EU citizen so I shouldn’t need to spell out which side of the brexit divide I am on however, with deference to Andy York and the forum in general, please do continue to follow forum rules.

The past four and a half years have been very difficult for many of us and frustration is certainly felt by me and mine, personally. The discussion here has demonstrated a remarkable neutrality and I commend everyone for that.

Best regards,

John.

[Guy Rixon]

On 20/01/2021 at 16:50, SM42 said:

You may have to be careful over rules of origin (ROO) too when  crossing the  border.

Whilst I believe model trains are 0% rated for tariffs, I'm not sure how some of the accessories and materials we may use will  be classed. If they are not 0% rated then there will be import tariffs to pay on top of VAT and admin fee bearing in mind a lot of stuff is made in China or India.  Made in the EU or UK should be OK as long as it meets the ROO criteria

Do you know how rules of origin affect the materials from which something is made? Going back to Shapeways as an example, I understand that the prints are made in Eindhoven, but the resin comes from the USA. Would the prints then count as originating from the EU?

 

I agree that scale models are zero rated for tariffs; I looked it up on the HMRC site earlier this month.

[Andy Hayter]

ROO depends in part on the added value.  In the case of Shapeways I would feel very confident that the value of the resin in the finished article will be insignificant in determining origin.

[Guy Rixon]

The guardian has just posted an article clarifying the rules on imports from the EU. This explains that:

• for orders under £135, the on-line retailer is supposed to collect the VAT and deliver it to HMRC;
• some European retailers don't want to do this, so won't supply the UK;
• some retailers are just ignoring the new rules and leaving the couriers to collect the tax on small orders.

It's possible that Shapeways have slipped into the "can't be bothered" category, which sounds to be unlawful. It's also a thing that the prices quoted on Shapeways to print one's own models are, and always have been, net of VAT, the tax being added on at checkout when it's needed. C.f. retail prices in Shapeways shops which traditionally are inclusive of tax. So I'm not sure how they're operating at the moment.

[phil-b259]

8 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

Clearly this change will restrict online purchasing from another country , to a degree, and I suspect that - in an EU context - that is one thing some Member States intended  when they agreed it.

 

The goal of the changes (both in the UK and EU) are basically to capture VAT on sales from the far east to UK / EU purchasers conducted via the likes of e-bay.

 

However it would be illegal for the EU to treat some businesses differently to others so the changes must apply to all businesses including those trading only within the EU even if the net effect is to hinder inter EU business at the same time.

 

The other thing to remember is that vat rates vary in each member state - this means that (1) Businesses in Germany will be at a disadvantage if the VAT rate in the Netherlands is lower and consumers buy from there and (2) VAT paid by a German resident in the Netherlands goes to support the provision of services to the Netherlands while the nation where the purchaser actually lives (and provides the services they use (e.g. bin collections) gets nothing.

 

While the solution to (1) would be harmonised VAT rates across the EU, member states do not like this restriction on their domestic freedoms (take note Brexiters its perfectly possible to block EU policies if you can get enough other states to agree with you) such harmonisation doesn't solve the problem of the VAT receipts not going to the country in which the purchaser lives.

 

Thus the perceived need to 'do something' about purchases from China via e-bay has morphed into a fairly radical change to the VAT regime which boosts tax receipts to Governments even i8f it comes at the expense of diluting the principle of the single internal market.

 

8 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

 

But the vendor in the EU should now be selling to you at exc VAT prices, not the price after local VAT 

 

 

 

 

Not every member state allows this procedure in domestic law - IIRC there is nothing in EU law which mandates that domestic VAT has to be removed from the purchase price before sale internationally. Germany has been cited as one place where claiming the VAT back is hard.

 

In any case even if there are EU rules mandating the practice, the UK is a third country and as such any EU rules cease to apply*. That means its perfectly possible to end up paying BOTH UK and German VAT!

 

 

* On a slight tangent, but useful to demonstrate the point, I believe that under the German constitution it is not possible to hold dual citizenship. However because EU law mandates that there cannot be discrimination between the rights of citizens from member states, Germany has been forced to permit dual citizenship for EU nationals as EU law overrides domestic law in these matters. Now that the UK is a third country outside of the EU, domestic German laws take precedence and in theory any new application to keep dual citizenship from a UK citizen applying for German citizenship will be rejected.

Edited January 21, 2021 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

10 hours ago, Philou said:

Slight problem in using Norway and Switzerland as examples - they're in EFTA - we're not!

 

The issue I have with all this B****t malarkey, is that a number of prominent 'Leavers' moved their money out of the UK into the EU and others got themselves a Euro passport - funny that, eh?

 

Still doesn't address the issue of how I can get UK models into the EU without having to make additional payments .......

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

Edit: Joe Biden isn't too warm about the UK being outside the EU either - allegedly.

 

EFTA is not the same thing as the single market though! They are however closely linked which is why many become confused.

 

Technically speaking the 'single market' is a third entity known as the EEA.

 

The EEA is run by the EU and all EU member states are part of it,  but EFTA is a joint partner in the enterprise which means that a side product of being an EFTA member means you end up inside the EEA / single market.

 

To be a member of EEA you:-  

 

(1) Still allow full freedom of movement including the right for EU citizens to reside, work and study as if they were your own citizens

(2) Need to harmonise all your tariffs, standards etc with EU ones

(3) Submit to having the European Courts of Justice as the highest judiciary authority

(4) Pay a large lump sum to the EU every year towards the EU budget.

 

The UK has chosen not to be a member of EFTA precisely because it would then become a member of the EEA and have to sign up to the above - and if you recall much was made by Farage, etc about how we could 'take back control of our borders' post Brexit..

 

Norway, in its membership of the EEA has chosen to protect its fishing industry and that sector is specifically excluded from any EEA / single market benefits , but otherwise it complies in full with the above including the all important freedom of movement.

 

 

[bbishop]

John, I think we should let people vent their feelings.  The first post on this page is about an awful family situation.  In similar circumstances, my language would not be as moderate.  Bill

[Philou]

An update: There is a loco that is arriving unexpectedly into stock and will be sent from the UK - here. As the value exceeds £135, we shall see what happens. It won't be here until late next week - if anyone is interested, I'll post up when it arrives as we'll be nearly four weeks into the new world order.

 

I know it won't be too helpful for those that want goods EU - UK, nonetheless, it may be a pointer of what to expect.

 

Edit: My new UK passport arrived today - only did the paperwork and posted on the 23rd December - by DHL, and no hassle. I was pleasantly surprised!

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

Edited January 21, 2021 by Philou

[Andy Hayter]

50 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

 

 

The EEA is run by the EU and all EU member states are part of it,  but EFTA is a joint partner in the enterprise which means that a side product of being an EFTA member means you end up inside the EEA / single market.

 

 

 

 A small correction Phil, EFTA and EEA membership are not one in the same.

Switzerland is in EFTA but not the EEA.  

 

European organisations.pdf

 

Perhaps clarifies but at the same time probably also confuses.  Please note this is pre-Brexit so the UK is wrongly placed.

 

Also it is important to recognise that EEA membership does not confer all of the rights of the single market.  Pre Brexit a Scottish truck could deliver smoked salmon to a French Supermarket chain with almost no formalities.  A Norwegian truck delivering their smoked salmon to the same supermarket will be able to travel freely until it reaches the French border where it will need to customs clear the goods - said to take up to 8 hours.  

[phil-b259]

6 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

A Norwegian truck delivering their smoked salmon to the same supermarket will be able to travel freely until it reaches the French border where it will need to customs clear the goods - said to take up to 8 hours.  

As I understand it that is because Norway deliberately made sure their fishing industry got an opt out when they joined the EEA. It’s also one of the reasons they have rejected full EU membership as such an opt out would not be tolerated for EU members.

 

The thing is the UK could probably have secured a similar opt out providing it was prepared to accept the rest of the stuff that goes with EEA membership like freedom of movement and oversight by the ECJ.

Edited January 22, 2021 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

Further problems - this time with returns....

 

Brexit: Retailers could burn goods stuck in EU https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55757931

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Just think on, all this fannying about is all so we can give the NHS £350million a week.

Seems like hard work to me.

 

Mike.

[Bernard Lamb]

11 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

 

 

 

 

Not every member state allows this procedure in domestic law - IIRC there is no Now that the UK is a third country outside of the EU, domestic German laws take precedence and in theory any new application to keep dual citizenship from a UK citizen applying for German citizenship will be rejected.

Absolutely correct.

BUT!

If you are like SWMBO and held a valid GDR passport on moving to the UK and then obtained UK citizenship you could keep your GDR citizenship. After reunification you were entitled to be a German citizen. After Brexit as a valid GDR citizen at reunification, you were entitled to German citizenship, even if you were a UK citizen. It took a while to complete the paper work but SWMBO now has UK and German citizenship and passports. Which is a deeper explanation of what I mentioned before about coming from the East and coming under their old laws having these days some value. 

Certain people of Jewish origin can also have dual nationality I believe. But I do not want to get into that area.

I do know people from Germany who gave up their German citizenship to become UK citizens and they cannot  revert to being German citizens as they fall foul of the rule that you quote.

My apologies for being boring and going deep into politics but I don't know how to explain things without going there.

Bernard

[Jol Wilkinson]

2 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Just think on, all this fannying about is all so we can give the NHS £350million a week.

Seems like hard work to me.

 

Mike.

 

Was that ever likely to happen? What has become clear is that, whatever the final deal turned out to be, we have wasted four years not recognising that we would be very likely going back to a pre-EU membership import/export customs and tariffs  situation. I say very likely because the pro Brexiteers in Government were making it clear they didn't want to adhere to any of the EU rules once we had left.

[phil-b259]

46 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

My apologies for being boring and going deep into politics but I don't know how to explain things without going there.

Bernard

 

There is politics and there is politics.

 

Given every law in the UK comes into being by way of an act of parliament and parliament is a grouping of politicians virtually nothing can be 'free' of a political dimension and it is foolish to claim otherwise.  This sort of 'politics' is quite wisely in my view tolerated by the moderators and allows many topics pertaining to railways, the hobby and indeed life to be properly explored in a way that would not be possible otherwise.

 

The other sort of 'politics' is where people are effectively campaigning for their chosen political party - such activities rarely end well and do not usually bring anything to the debate and it is this sort of 'politics which is banned on RMweb.

 

 

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

On 20/01/2021 at 20:32, Bernard Lamb said:

My daughter can however get a German passport.

 

I wish I could. 

 

9 pages of anguish on how difficult it is to do today what we did without a moment's thought just three weeks ago.

 

None of this nonsense was necessary, just a stupid, pointless exercise in jamming up the works to placate the anti-straight banana idiots.  I expect they think covid is a hoax too.

[Kylestrome]

   I'm not sure where the 'straight banana' thing comes from (maybe fake news?). I've just bought some of the curliest bananas I've ever seen, here in Germany.

Edited January 22, 2021 by Kylestrome

[LimboBrit]

I share peoples frustration but I think we are risking having this thread shut down and that would be a shame because there have been some very useful on-topic posts

[number6]

I like a nice diagram. 

[Kylestrome]

6 minutes ago, number6 said:

I like a nice diagram.

 

Thanks. That simplifies things considerably.

Edited January 22, 2021 by Kylestrome

[Nearholmer]

Simple question, but I'm not wishing to wade through nine pages, much of which looks well-OT, to find the answer, so forgive me if its already been given:

 

Do we now have to pay VAT and customs duty on hobby goods ordered from Europe, as we do with stuff from the USA?

 

Possible answers: Yes; No; We should, but the bureaucracy hasn't caught-up yet; Some suppliers can levy at source and give an "all-in" invoice, as some USA suppliers do.

 

 

Edited January 22, 2021 by Nearholmer

[John Harris]

To give a specific, model related, example.

 

I use a model manufacturer in Belgium (Resicast) who only supplies direct to customers, the situation is explained in their latest newsletter, my highlights.

 

BREXIT
The UK is no longer part of the EEC and this means a number of changes!
EEC - Belgian VAT (21% VAT) will be charged on all order under £135.00
However all invoices will be in Euros and thus the exchange rate will no doubt affect the above.
(£135.00 = approx 150.00 Euro as of 01 January 2021)
An invoice and custom declaration CN 22/23 will now be included with all orders.
There should be no customs duties to pay in the UK but there could be handling charges.
Order under £135.00 can be done via the Eshop.

On orders above £135.00 no EEC - Belgian VAT (21%) will be charged.
An invoice and custom declaration CN 22/23 will be included with all orders.
However, you will have to pay UK VAT, UK Custom duties and no doubt
handling charges.
Orders over £135.00 can only be done by contacting me direct: infos@resicast.com
The UK being no longer part of EEC,
postage has increased considerably (approx 10%)
Postage delays will no doubt occur and RESICAST cannot be held responsible for these.

Finally, RESICAST cannot be held responsible for any extra duties/charges from UK customs.
In case of problem, only the EEC - Belgian laws apply.

To end things, it will no longer be possible for RESICAST to attend shows in the UK as this is no
longer possible under the new commercial agreements between the EEC & the UK.

 

At present they are not accepting orders from the UK, apparently HMG are not accepting the credentials of small companies, but hopefully that will be resolved.  One obvious point is that it seems sensible to restrict orders to under £135, any extra postage will be more than saved in no 'handling charges'.

 

I suppose the "model trade" is a minor consideration in the great scheme of things, but it occurs to me that the various national model clubs and societies, of all genres, desire to remain "non political" means that they could not lobby on the behalf of modellers.

 

jch