Buying and Selling models to/from Europe

[SM42]

32 minutes ago, jpendle said:

Hi,

 

Is it a CE mark or a China Export mark?

Somewhere in this thread, I think, there were some examples.

 

The CE mark has the letters spaced and the E is shaped like the C, more like the Euro symbol than an E.

 

Regards,

 

John P

 

the E looks like the C with an added bit in the middle.

 

So as it was made in China (although this is not stated anywhere)  it will be suject to a tariff which fortunatley, as it is a model train is, 0%.  AIUI

 

I hope that's right as I want to know what to expect when passing through the red channel at Dover, as I suspect not having the foggiest what should and should not be declared, will be the safer option.

 

Keeping receipts will be vital and I hope my favourite shop is set up for export sales.

 

Mrs SM42 is going to have to take up a new hobby so we can use her personal allowance too.

 

Andy

[etendam]

17 minutes ago, SM42 said:

So as it was made in China (although this is not stated anywhere)  it will be suject to a tariff which fortunatley, as it is a model train is, 0%.  AIUI

 

Andy

Modeltrains not made in the UK or EU are 0% (third country duty)

 

Ed

Edited February 5, 2021 by etendam

[Jonboy]

27 minutes ago, etendam said:

None of the Dutch shippers accept this possibility but perhaps this is possible in a few countries. Catawiki also makes a very clear statement that returned items from outside the EU are double hit with VAT.

 

Ed

There is the equivalent procedure for businesses, and I would be amazed if there wasn’t the equivalent for consumers as the EU regulations are generally strong on enforcing consumer rights such as warranty’s, but I am not well versed in the fine workings of the Dutch import rules. 
 

https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/bldcontenten/belastingdienst/customs/customs-processes/special-procedures/special-procedures-for-goods/outward-processing-procedure

[phil-b259]

37 minutes ago, etendam said:

None of the Dutch shippers accept this possibility but perhaps this is possible in a few countries. Catawiki also makes a very clear statement that returned items from outside the EU are double hit with VAT.

 

Ed

 

That would be because its up to the Dutch Government to legislate for it to apply in the Netherlands.

 

Unsurprisingly a measure enacted by HMRC in the UK has no relevance to the situation in any other country.

[etendam]

1 hour ago, Jonboy said:

There is the equivalent procedure for businesses, and I would be amazed if there wasn’t the equivalent for consumers as the EU regulations are generally strong on enforcing consumer rights such as warranty’s, but I am not well versed in the fine workings of the Dutch import rules. 

EU customers are warned that non EU purchases on self import will have NO warranty.

Every EU government has stated this on their websites: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/brexit/vraag-en-antwoord/consumentenrechten-britse-producten and it is also mentioned in many articles as this is not negotiated fully yet. This is why many countries are stating you should make a purchase at a firm within the EU.

 

Purchases on Ebay (and other seller places) are protected when paid by PayPal.

 

Ed

 

[jpendle]

I think perhaps they are saying that if you import something from Timbuktu (Mali) and it doesn't work you have no recourse through EU consumer laws and are on your own.

 

So what, I would assume that has always been the case.

 

Caveat Emptor

 

John P

[etendam]

9 hours ago, jpendle said:

I think perhaps they are saying that if you import something from Timbuktu (Mali) and it doesn't work you have no recourse through EU consumer laws and are on your own.

The EU have sent out a clear statement that EU consumer warranty no longer applies when purchases are made in the UK:

 

It’s important to be aware that EU consumer rights no longer automatically apply to purchases from businesses based in the UK and will depend on the circumstances of the business you purchased from. As EU consumer rights no longer automatically apply this means that the European Small Claim Courts procedure and the EU Online Dispute Resolution Platform no longer accept complaints by consumers against businesses based in the UK.

 

That the UK still have warranty regulations that will perhaps be the case, but buyers can's fall back to the EU rights as a buyer. This is why every EU country informs their citizens. 

 

https://www.ccpc.ie/consumers/shopping/brexit/

 

 

Ed

[Jason P]

Hi, I've read with interest the posts on this thread. I thought I would share my experience and perhaps someone could shed some light!

 

I live in Spain and currently have two pre-orders from two different UK model retailers.  The first is for some track and DCC decoders and value is approx 100GBP and UK VAT has been charged (they inform me they are VAT registered here in Spain).  The other, from a different retailer, is for a 4 car unit plus two decoders (value 300GBP) and UK VAT has NOT been charged.  I have contacted each but am still none the wiser if I will have to pay import and customs charges (and more importantly how I do that and how much!).  The unit is definitely manufactured in China and I suspect some of the other items are too.  Reading the horror stories of large customs bills for overseas customers I am tempted just to cancel the orders.  Any ideas?!

[Enterprisingwestern]

6 minutes ago, Jason P said:

Hi, I've read with interest the posts on this thread. I thought I would share my experience and perhaps someone could shed some light!

 

I live in Spain and currently have two pre-orders from two different UK model retailers.  The first is for some track and DCC decoders and value is approx 100GBP and UK VAT has been charged (they inform me they are VAT registered here in Spain).  The other, from a different retailer, is for a 4 car unit plus two decoders (value 300GBP) and UK VAT has NOT been charged.  I have contacted each but am still none the wiser if I will have to pay import and customs charges (and more importantly how I do that and how much!).  The unit is definitely manufactured in China and I suspect some of the other items are too.  Reading the horror stories of large customs bills for overseas customers I am tempted just to cancel the orders.  Any ideas?!

 

From a fellow ex-pat in Spain and from experience, I wouldn't worry too much, I think currently they are that busy in the Spanish receiving airports that all they seem to be doing is clearing the decks, just keep your head down!

 

Mike.

[SM42]

1 hour ago, Jason P said:

Hi, I've read with interest the posts on this thread. I thought I would share my experience and perhaps someone could shed some light!

 

I live in Spain and currently have two pre-orders from two different UK model retailers.  The first is for some track and DCC decoders and value is approx 100GBP and UK VAT has been charged (they inform me they are VAT registered here in Spain).  The other, from a different retailer, is for a 4 car unit plus two decoders (value 300GBP) and UK VAT has NOT been charged.  I have contacted each but am still none the wiser if I will have to pay import and customs charges (and more importantly how I do that and how much!).  The unit is definitely manufactured in China and I suspect some of the other items are too.  Reading the horror stories of large customs bills for overseas customers I am tempted just to cancel the orders.  Any ideas?!

 

My understanding is that Spanish VAT (21% ?)   + the courier handling fee (who will pay the duties and taxes for you)  is what you may have to pay for the trains / track at least. (0% tariff on the trains etc AIUI)

 

I suspect retailer 1 hasn't quite got this right and should have charged Spanish VAT and then pass that onto the Spanish tax authorities if they are so registered as they claim.

 

The decoders I'm not so sure about. Whether there will be any import charges ( tariffs) to pay and as a mixed consignment, as it were, I'm not 100% sure how they would handle it.

 

There could possibly be 0% tariff on the decoders too if they fall under the correct comodity code (perhaps 85439000 for electronic equipment would cover them. )

 

So assuming no tariffs (import duty)  to pay and this is just a guess (based on some limited information gleaned from the web) around £84 + fees (an unknown quantity unless you know who the courier is and could find out) as an estimate.

 

This seems a bit steep on your doorstep  but remember

 

In order 1 there is a risk of double VAT (UK at £16.66 and Spanish at £21)  being paid. In the second  you have not paid 20% UK VAT (£60) but may have to pay Spanish VAT (£63)

 

In the latter case that's  £3 more than if you were a  GB resident stood in the shop and in the former £21 more + the unknown courier handling fees.

 

Doesn't seem so bad when you look at it that way

 

Of course as mentioned above, it may not happen and I wouldn't worry about it.  Just be prepared

 

I must point out that this is how I understand it and I may be wrong and I'm sure there are those on this forum who will correct any errors I may have amde

 

Andy

 

 

 

 

[Jason P]

2 hours ago, SM42 said:

 

My understanding is that Spanish VAT (21% ?)   + the courier handling fee (who will pay the duties and taxes for you)  is what you may have to pay for the trains / track at least. (0% tariff on the trains etc AIUI)

 

I suspect retailer 1 hasn't quite got this right and should have charged Spanish VAT and then pass that onto the Spanish tax authorities if they are so registered as they claim.

 

The decoders I'm not so sure about. Whether there will be any import charges ( tariffs) to pay and as a mixed consignment, as it were, I'm not 100% sure how they would handle it.

 

There could possibly be 0% tariff on the decoders too if they fall under the correct comodity code (perhaps 85439000 for electronic equipment would cover them. )

 

So assuming no tariffs (import duty)  to pay and this is just a guess (based on some limited information gleaned from the web) around £84 + fees (an unknown quantity unless you know who the courier is and could find out) as an estimate.

 

This seems a bit steep on your doorstep  but remember

 

In order 1 there is a risk of double VAT (UK at £16.66 and Spanish at £21)  being paid. In the second  you have not paid 20% UK VAT (£60) but may have to pay Spanish VAT (£63)

 

In the latter case that's  £3 more than if you were a  GB resident stood in the shop and in the former £21 more + the unknown courier handling fees.

 

Doesn't seem so bad when you look at it that way

 

Of course as mentioned above, it may not happen and I wouldn't worry about it.  Just be prepared

 

I must point out that this is how I understand it and I may be wrong and I'm sure there are those on this forum who will correct any errors I may have amde

 

Andy

 

 

 

 

Thank you very much for your feedback, much appreciated.

[Cor-onGRT4]

On 10/02/2021 at 12:30, Jason P said:

Hi, I've read with interest the posts on this thread. I thought I would share my experience and perhaps someone could shed some light!

 

I live in Spain and currently have two pre-orders from two different UK model retailers.  The first is for some track and DCC decoders and value is approx 100GBP and UK VAT has been charged (they inform me they are VAT registered here in Spain).  The other, from a different retailer, is for a 4 car unit plus two decoders (value 300GBP) and UK VAT has NOT been charged.  I have contacted each but am still none the wiser if I will have to pay import and customs charges (and more importantly how I do that and how much!).  The unit is definitely manufactured in China and I suspect some of the other items are too.  Reading the horror stories of large customs bills for overseas customers I am tempted just to cancel the orders.  Any ideas?!

If the retailer you paid VAT for and they are VAT registered in Spain [ i asume this is Hattons] than you pay nothing on arrival, Hattons is DDP listed

see on their site on delivery and international postage click "here" in text and you get the list of seven EU countries DDP listed -

Delivered Duty Paid, i just have called this morning DPD courier here in the Netherlands to get a confirmation if this was right, and they confirm it is, I have a trunk full at Hattons, so i can get it send by DPD without worring to pay extra.

My last shipment from the UK was 8 and 9 of December from Hattons, cost me some time to have found all this information over the last weeks.

Here is a list with all the explanation of terms.

hope this helps

Edited February 11, 2021 by Cor-onGRT4

[Jason P]

40 minutes ago, Cor-onGRT4 said:

If the retailer you paid VAT for and they are VAT registered in Spain [ i asume this is Hattons] than you pay nothing on arrival, Hattons is DDP listed

see on their site on delivery and international postage click "here" in text and you get the list of seven EU countries DDP listed -

Delivered Duty Paid, i just have called this morning DPD courier here in the Netherlands to get a confirmation if this was right, and they confirm it is, I have a trunk full at Hattons, so i can get it send by DPD without worring to pay extra.

My last shipment from the UK was 8 and 9 of December from Hattons, cost me some time to have found all this information over the last weeks.

Here is a list with all the explanation of terms.

hope this helps

That's great...all slowly starting to make a little more sense!  Yes, I was talking about Hattons - missed that section on their website.  Suspect it will all settle down in the fullness of time (hopefully!)

[irishmail]

Just to clarify,  is this Duty Delivery Paid regardless of the value/ amount of your order?   I did read a few weeks ago if order goods then you where limited to £135.00 /€150.00  or does this not apply if DDP is paid?

Thanks

[SM42]

5 minutes ago, irishmail said:

Just to clarify,  is this Duty Delivery Paid regardless of the value/ amount of your order?   I did read a few weeks ago if order goods then you where limited to £135.00 /€150.00  or does this not apply if DDP is paid?

Thanks

 

I think you are correct in that DDP is on orders below £135.

Over that then VAT is paid on delivery as it were

 

Andy

[Jason P]

1 hour ago, SM42 said:

 

I think you are correct in that DDP is on orders below £135.

Over that then VAT is paid on delivery as it were

 

Andy

 

That appears to be correct (150€).  The following link from the Royal Mail explains:

 

https://www.royalmail.com/business/international/guide/delivered-duties-paid

 

 

[Cor-onGRT4]

3 hours ago, SM42 said:

 

I think you are correct in that DDP is on orders below £135.

Over that then VAT is paid on delivery as it were

 

Andy

 

1 hour ago, Jason P said:

That appears to be correct (150€).  The following link from the Royal Mail explains:

 

3 hours ago, irishmail said:

Just to clarify,  is this Duty Delivery Paid regardless of the value/ amount of your order?   I did read a few weeks ago if order goods then you where limited to £135.00 /€150.00  or does this not apply if DDP is paid?

Thanks

I'm affraid there are some things mixed up in these reactions.

Looking on the Royal Mail link below , they explain very clear what the meaning is between DDU and DDP in the sceme, above 22 euro if it is DDU order, the receiver pays the VAT and handling duties if the receiver have a DDP order the seller collects the VAT and pays all the handling fees regardless of the amount of the shipment, the receiver don't pay any at receiving , this is all paid by the seller.  

The amount of 135 poud / 150 euro has nothing to do with DDP, this amount is for another regulation.

 

These 135 pound amount  is for outside the UK sellers and buisnesses, if one of them sells to the UK below the amount of 135 pound, then according new UK regulations after brexit, these sellers must collect the VAT and pay this to the UK tax office, this takes so much affort for small buisnesses, that they deceided not to sell anymore to the UK

 

hope this clears all

Edited February 12, 2021 by Cor-onGRT4

[Talltim]

Someone upthread mentioned that buying from the EU into the UK is now the same as buying from the US has always been.
In theory this is true, however the US doesn’t have VAT to be removed. US sellers seem much better at removing their state sales tax for sales to the UK presumably because they only apply it for sales within their state and so most online sales have no state tax.

[Colin_McLeod]

 

Is there an option for DDP to be used on sales below €22? for example a supplier with the appropriate VAT registration.

 

It is the cost of low value sales that are most distorted by the carrier applying a charge for processing DDU.

[jpendle]

1 hour ago, Talltim said:

Someone upthread mentioned that buying from the EU into the UK is now the same as buying from the US has always been.
In theory this is true, however the US doesn’t have VAT to be removed. US sellers seem much better at removing their state sales tax for sales to the UK presumably because they only apply it for sales within their state and so most online sales have no state tax.

Actually sales tax in the US is added on at the till in a real shop, so US retail prices NEVER include sales tax.

For high value items like domestic appliances and cars the seller will ask where you live so that the appropriate local sales taxes apply, rather than the sales taxes where the retailer is located.

Sales taxes vary by state, county, and town, and sometimes by even smaller areas (special development areas).

So if I buy a cup of Starbucks in each of the 3 towns near me the retail price will be the same but the final price at the till will be different.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[Cor-onGRT4]

58 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

Is there an option for DDP to be used on sales below €22? for example a supplier with the appropriate VAT registration.

 

It is the cost of low value sales that are most distorted by the carrier applying a charge for processing DDU.

If the item is below 22,- euro and shipped to the EU it is totally free of [extra] VAT and handling cost, so no need for DDP but is only applicable for the EU,

Hattons is shipping DDP for every amount, because they also collect the VAT below this amount [22,- eu], but this VAT is also obligated to be paid to the dutch tax office if VAT registred in the country they ship to with DDP .

 

This is only of application for 7 EU countries of the EU , Hattons is VAT registred, all others EU countries have a DDU application, for these ones Hattons does not collect the VAT.

 

Complicated issn't, still to follow?

The regulations for the UK import is different now,  new rules because the UK has now non EU regulations 

Edited February 12, 2021 by Cor-onGRT4

[Talltim]

22 minutes ago, jpendle said:

Actually sales tax in the US is added on at the till in a real shop, so US retail prices NEVER include sales tax.

For high value items like domestic appliances and cars the seller will ask where you live so that the appropriate local sales taxes apply, rather than the sales taxes where the retailer is located.

Sales taxes vary by state, county, and town, and sometimes by even smaller areas (special development areas).

So if I buy a cup of Starbucks in each of the 3 towns near me the retail price will be the same but the final price at the till will be different.

 

Regards,

 

John P

It ends with the same result tho, US sellers manage to not apply taxes that they shouldn’t.

[Kylestrome]

My brain hurts ...

[LimboBrit]

My Bachmann 94xx arrived today by ParcelForce. It was just dumped in the letter box for anybody to take away. In the end I paid UK VAT@ 20% + shipping. Not entirely according to the rules as I understand them. 

[Mikkel]

Sounds like the DDP option will favour the big boys then, as I assume there are transaction costs for the seller to offer this?