Buying and Selling models to/from Europe

[Andy Hayter]

Do be aware however who is doing the ripping off.  Not the shop you bought from.

Up to a point not the delivery company (though their charges can be a bit steep).

The winner is the government. They get money that previously you would not have had to pay and the delivery company does have costs involved in collecting it.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Andy Hayter

[Jonboy]

Interestingly £40 is around the standard fee for commercial clearances on larger shipments from around the world. I am wondering which division of DHL processed the order mentioned by enterprising western (they have several).

[melmerby]

6 hours ago, Neils WRX said:

Finally had the letter from Parcel Force, they say I owe them £47 which £35 VAT and £12 handling charge.

 

I contacted the shop I purchased the coaches from (by Ebay) and they say Ebay should have collected the UK VAT, so no idea why I've been stung. Guess I take the matter up with them ?

 

What I thought was a good price for 3 coaches is now a bit of rip off.

 

Stay safe everyone,

 

Neil

As I posted earlier, the limit for ebay purchases is £135 for them to do the VAT collection, above that it's up to you.

 

From the figure quoted you have paid VAT on a lot more than £135. (the full £180?)

At £135 the VAT would be £27

The shop should have invoiced them VAT free and you would've been liable for the VAT if still over £135.

 

If the shop has included the 20% VAT in the total, IMHO they are at fault as you will have paid VAT on a price already quoted as including VAT.

[Guest WM183]

This is all so stupid.

 

Sigh.

[Enterprisingwestern]

10 hours ago, Jonboy said:

I am wondering which division of DHL processed the order mentioned by enterprising western (they have several).

 

The Spanish rip off division, there's a lot of it about over here, not just DHL.

 

Mike.

[Allegheny1600]

57 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

The Spanish rip off division, there's a lot of it about over here, not just DHL.

 

Mike.

You have my deepest sympathies, we have the same thing here in Greece.

My understanding is that it’s not the government specifically at fault (in the way of being their primary postal operator) but the fact that they have abdicated responsibility by allowing any operator to charge what they feel like.

 I have reduced risk by refusing to order anything from the UK since the whole thing started but one hears absolute horror stories from other Brits here, about being charged double what the parcel is actually worth.

 I just hope that these practices are outlawed as soon as possible but the UK is a “third country” now so don’t expect any sympathy or help from the EU, that’s up to the UK government and good luck with that!*

John.

 

* I can’t/won’t vote anymore so I don’t expect any help or support in return. We’re on our own now.

[Kylestrome]

4 hours ago, WM183 said:

This is all so stupid.

 

It is, and it might well be a foretaste of international commerce within the EU after July 1st. 

 

David

[Joseph_Pestell]

For anybody in the EU wanting Hornby, Pierre Dominique are selling it at prices broadly equivalent to the UK.

[Jonboy]

It will be worse the other way come July 1st. An EU seller into the uk can register for a UK vat registration directly and streamline their processes.

 

A Uk company selling to Europe needs to appoint a Fiscal Representative in a single EU state to report their VAT and have joint liability for it...at a cost.

[Joseph_Pestell]

10 minutes ago, Jonboy said:

It will be worse the other way come July 1st. An EU seller into the uk can register for a UK vat registration directly and streamline their processes.

 

A Uk company selling to Europe needs to appoint a Fiscal Representative in a single EU state to report their VAT and have joint liability for it...at a cost.

 

I have an acquaintance in Bristol, a Dutch businessman, who anticipated this situation post-Brexit and set up a consultancy to help UK companies around this. Basically, it consists of having a Dutch-registered business and address. So the seller in the UK sells to its Dutch company, exports orders in bulk and then resends from the Dutch company to clients in Europe. The Dutch company would not usually own or rent premises there but use space at a logistics depot.

 

Can't recall the name of the consultancy but you could probably find him by Googling (other search engines are available) : Marcus Broix Bristol 

 

PS: Just remembered that Marcus has presence on LinkedIn and Facebook.

Edited May 22, 2021 by Joseph_Pestell

[SamThomas]

15 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

Do be aware however who is doing the ripping off.  Not the shop you bought from.

Up to a point not the delivery company (though their charges can be a bit steep).

The winner is the government. They get money that previously you would not have had to pay and the delivery company does have costs involved in collecting it.

 

It would appear that we will have to pay VAT in the selling country or the recieving country so it really does not matter (apart from the few % difference in rates here & there).

 

The ripoff is by the courier companies with their handling charges - a process that is highly automated does not cost more than a few pennies (apart from the costs of setting up systems - soon reccooped).

 

I have a couple of items coming from China (under a fiver each) & if anyone tries to charge any form of VAT with a handling fee then they can simply send it back & then I will re-order the same product from someone in the UK & pay more that way. I'd rather a small company make some money than the likes of DHL/RM.

[melmerby]

3 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

 

 

 

I have a couple of items coming from China (under a fiver each) & if anyone tries to charge any form of VAT with a handling fee then they can simply send it back & then I will re-order the same product from someone in the UK & pay more that way. I'd rather a small company make some money than the likes of DHL/RM.

Up until the start of the year I had been regularly purchasing items on Aliexpress, mostly low cost items (under a tenner).

I bought dozens of small electronic items such as Arduino Nano clones for just over a pound etc.

I never had a charge even when I mistakenly put everything in one lot and totalled £28.

 

It will be interesting to see what they do with low cost items as surely they will clog up the system if every single one has to have a VAT invoice and handling charge added.

[Guest WM183]

The customs fee in the Netherlands is currently 13 euro. I cant wait to pay 13 extra euros for every 5 euro item I get from the UK. 

Edited May 22, 2021 by WM183

[irishmail]

Has anyone had any recent experience of ordering from Rails of Sheffield?   If so how did it go,  any issues with customs or VAT charges.

Also what is their postage like and who do they use,  Royal Mail or Courier? 

On the ROS website all it says is overseas postage at cost which is not very helpful.

[Andy Hayter]

Rails try and use the cheapest delivery system but in this case cheap does not mean nasty.   I have never had a problem.  Almost regardless of who they use it is the post office here in France (La Poste) who make the final delivery.  On one occasion Rails came back to me after they had dispatched a model and told me they had overcharged me for the postage and credited the overcharge to the next model on my pre-order list

 

Received a loco in January for which I had to pay VAT.  I have also bought some of the SECR vans.  These were shipped separately and as low value items did not attract any VAT.

[LimboBrit]

15 minutes ago, irishmail said:

Has anyone had any recent experience of ordering from Rails of Sheffield?   If so how did it go,  any issues with customs or VAT charges.

Also what is their postage like and who do they use,  Royal Mail or Courier? 

On the ROS website all it says is overseas postage at cost which is not very helpful.

I had a pre-order with RoS for a 94xx PT which shipped earlier this year. Everything went fine with no unexpected charges. I can't remember how it was shipped though.

[Robert_N-Nm]

Hi all,

 

What are the experiences with a shipment from Germany at the moment??

 

I ordered something in February from a big online retailer for N-gauge, and with all the items together it was a bigger order so in terms of total value over the level they would have to raise the tax for HMRC (I think, unless this is done per item, as they are all below the value individually)

 

They send it out via UPS and after a bit of too and throwing with UPS/HMRC it got released. Now UPS was struggling with the paperwork I think and to my surprise they (as in UPS) send me an invoice to levy taxes and customs-charges about 1.5 months after it was delivered.

 

I guess the problem here was the invoice send with as its not showing any VAT, just a total sum....which unfortunately includes German MwST...  Did try and contact them, but they just bluntly answered - costums charges, not our problem.

 

Kind Regards

Robert

[73080]

I recently purchased a set of Roco coaches that were only still available from a handful of suppliers.  I decided to use ebay, but with a vendor who had a physical shop in Germany and their own separate website.

 

Assuming UK VAT was payable on everything including postage, the price without VAT was less than the limit of £135.

 

It was sent by what ebay describe as "standard delivery from outside UK" priced at £18.25 - the address label stated 'Deutsche Post' top left and 'DHL' top right.  A Customs Declaration CN23 form was included in a sealed plastic envelope attached to the outside of the parcel, but had not been opened for inspection.  The documentation made no mention of VAT, though the ebay page stated the VAT rate as 20% rather than the German rate of 19%.

 

Ordered on 6 May 2021 and advised of despatch the following day.  It was delivered by Parcel Force on 12 May with no additional charges. The experience was as quick as could reasonably be expected, easy and efficient.

 

If anybody wishes to use this vendor, their ebay name is kieskemper1928.

 

Their website may be viewed at:  https://kieskemper-shop.de

[bbishop]

15 hours ago, Robert_N-Nm said:

Hi all,

 

What are the experiences with a shipment from Germany at the moment??

 

I ordered something in February from a big online retailer for N-gauge, and with all the items together it was a bigger order so in terms of total value over the level they would have to raise the tax for HMRC (I think, unless this is done per item, as they are all below the value individually)

 

They send it out via UPS and after a bit of too and throwing with UPS/HMRC it got released. Now UPS was struggling with the paperwork I think and to my surprise they (as in UPS) send me an invoice to levy taxes and customs-charges about 1.5 months after it was delivered.

 

I guess the problem here was the invoice send with as its not showing any VAT, just a total sum....which unfortunately includes German MwST...  Did try and contact them, but they just bluntly answered - costums charges, not our problem.

 

Kind Regards

Robert

Robert, "toy trains" come under commodity code 9503003000 and are not liable for customs charges.  I think you are justified in not paying the invoice.  Bill

[Andy Hayter]

Please let us get this clear.

There is import duty and model trains do not attract duty - but some things we use to make our models or layouts might attract duty.

Then there is VAT.  Irrespective of any duty VAT is liable unless there are specific rules - like we don't collect VAT until the goods are worth xxx.

[Philou]

I've already posted similar but worth repeating: To date, I've had no problems with parcels being sent out from a UK shop via RM/La Poste. All parcels were well over the €135 threshold. My supplier is not normally equipped to do the VAT deduction before onward posting (so little UK/EU business he has no EU registration) and therefore my parcels were valued and invoiced with UK VAT included.

 

No request for EU-VAT has yet been made, but it's early days yet and I'm sure there will be confusion galore when the new intra-EU VAT rules are applied . I shall be trying again soon and I'll let you know what happens.

 

It seems from the e-mails, that Spain and the Netherlands are being somewhat over-zealous?

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Oldddudders]

17 minutes ago, Philou said:

It seems from the e-mails, that Spain and the Netherlands are being somewhat over-zealous?

In my 17 years in France, I have bought from US suppliers on multiple occasions. Over the years, I think only one - an HO 4-6-6-4 - attracted a charge from within France. It does not seem that easy attitude is hardening post-Brexit, which is nice. Certainly the item I bought from a UK supplier earlier this year, over 135 euros, didn't attract attention. Nor did I pay UK VAT! 

[melmerby]

9 hours ago, bbishop said:

Robert, "toy trains" come under commodity code 9503003000 and are not liable for customs charges.  I think you are justified in not paying the invoice.  Bill

Bad suggestion.

If no UK VAT has been paid 20% VAT is definitely due to HMRC on the total, irrespective of whether tax was mistakenly charged in the originating country

It seems likely a handling charge has also been added.

No different to Royal Mail/Parcelforce with VAT collection on imported items.

 

[bbishop]

54 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Bad suggestion.

If no UK VAT has been paid 20% VAT is definitely due to HMRC on the total, irrespective of whether tax was mistakenly charged in the originating country

It seems likely a handling charge has also been added.

No different to Royal Mail/Parcelforce with VAT collection on imported items.

 

Keith, it was an unitemised invoice and the operative said "customs charges".  If an itemised invoice were to show UK VAT or handling charges, however unreasonable, then yup has to be paid. 

 

Robert, you are being caught with double VAT, caused by the retailer getting it wrong.  An e-mail to them might just get you a credit note.  You can but try.  Bill

Edited May 24, 2021 by bbishop

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, bbishop said:

Keith, it was an unitemised invoice and the operative said "customs charges".  If an itemised invoice were to show UK VAT or handling charges, however unreasonable, then yup has to be paid. 

 

 

Goods have been imported into the UK without VAT being paid and Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs want their 20% VAT cut of the cost..

Personally I would contact the carrier and ask for a breakdown of the charges quoted which should say how much is going where. (VAT plus any handling fee)

I can't see how you can argue a way out of paying VAT and handling charge on these items, just because the carrier is being sloppy with the paperwork.