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Buying and Selling models to/from Europe


creweboy
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Morning,

I have a magazine subscription (N Bahn Magazin) but haven’t received a copy since I renewed my subscription in February. There was a bit of confusion in renewing my subscription so not sure if that is the issue however money has left my bank account. Does anyone know how all this Brexit/ tax business effects this type of transaction and has anyone else with a subscription had any issues?(Pardon the pun)
Robert

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The publisher in question stopped my subscription to the magazine 'Modelleisenbahner' which I had had since GDR days with the comment that it would resume when there was a full Brexit agreement! My stream of e-mails have been either unanswered or answered with meaningless platitudes.

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9 hours ago, etendam said:

The Dutch post (PostNL) just released the new rules for purchases from non-EU countries after July 1st.

 

Shipments up to € 150 will have VAT added + Handling fee per shipment (€4.00 when paid online or €7.00 at a pickup point)

Shipments from € 150 will have VAT added + Handling fee per shipment (€10.00 when paid online or €13.00 at a pickup point) + Duties (Modeltrains = € 0)

 

You will need to pay VAT for any products that arrive in the Netherlands from 1 July on wards. The purchase date is IRRELEVANT! It is possible that you already paid the VAT but the handling fee will always be charged. If you choose not to pay online the parcel is send to a pickup point and you have 7 days to collect the parcel and pay the fee. After 7 days it will be shipped back!

 

After July 16th the NEW CE marking rules for modeltrains also apply. CE Mark products (Modeltrains, Toys & Electrical equipment) cannot be sold online in Europe without an Authorized Representative based in Europe. Make sure that the items you buy f.i. from the UK, US or Far East have a CE mark and the details of the Authorized Representative in the EU on EVERY product. 

 

The Authorized Representative however will demand from manufacturers / suppliers that his name will ONLY on the items that are imported by him to avoid self import and make him responsible for the CE responsibility. So we will soon get back to EU importers.

 

Ebay will block Ads from business sellers on EU Ebay sites that don't have a VAT number. How they tackle the CE Marking is not clear to me yet but in their policy is stated that listed items that needs CE marking from outside the EU must have it. So items that are offered after July 16th must meet the new rules to prevent suspending of an account. 

 

So it will not be so easy to get items that are not available from EU sellers. 

 

Ed

What effect will that have on sales of kits and bits from non VAT registered UK "small" suppliers who sell direct to the customer, don't have an EU representative (not commercially worthwhile) and don't/can't CE mark their products. Are their products classified as Modeltrains, Toys or Electrical equipment?

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1 hour ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

What effect will that have on sales of kits and bits from non VAT registered UK "small" suppliers who sell direct to the customer, don't have an EU representative (not commercially worthwhile) and don't/can't CE mark their products. Are their products classified as Modeltrains, Toys or Electrical equipment?

 

Kits also start with the HS code 95 and this is the code for Toys, Games And Sports Equipment. Every item starting with a HS code 95 is on alert with the customs. They must have CE Markings. There is an exception... and one is the mark EACH item (on the outside of the package of the item AND in the instructions) that the kit is collector item and only suitable for age 14 years and older. But as the customs are well aware that this will be used to avoid the CE there are a number of remarks before you classify an item like this.

 

The kit therefor must have a huge number of parts and can't be made kids. A 3D printed kit is therefore NOT exempted from CE

A loco / wagon / kits of that is similar available from manufacturers like Marklin / Fleischmann /  other that have CE markings will be used for comparison to determine by the customs if it should have a CE marking or not. It is VERY difficult and a long process to convince that the customs made the wrong judgement - in the meantime the seller is offered 2 options: Either pay the costs of the customs and shipping then the items are returned to the sender of the items are scrapped within a month. On a daily basis a few containers with items are scrapped by the customs just in the Netherlands.

 

Small suppliers will quickly become fully dependent on a business partners in the EU with whom they will have to do their business. The prices for buyers will of course rise as a result, because the importer also wants to earn money from it. (and will act as an Authorized Representative based in Europe for CE)

 

It is strange that some have not yet done so while relying in part on customers from the EU for their turnover.

Most notably, a range of items manufactured in the EU does not require CE marking (because the manufacturer is directly liable for the product) and importation of the same item then the CE marking is necessity for entry into the EU.

 

Although the EU indicates that it is about improving product safety, the EU will protect the internal market in this way and it will prevent everyone (especially in China) from placing a CE logo on all items by default.

 

Ed

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Not ONLY small suppliers are affected by the new CE marking rules. As an example Kato is in the EU is distributed by Noch. (assuming that they will act as an Authorized Representative based in Europe for CE) they will demand from Kato that only items distributed by them will have their Name mentioned on the items. 

Noch however doesn't supply the full range of Kato (and sometimes their prices are xxx times more as well) so a lot of items are sold directly from Japanese suppliers or by UK sellers. If the name of the Authorized Representative is missing on the package of each item it still can't enter the EU.

 

So the UK importer will be affected by this as well and I don't believe this is a small supplier. The same for the shops in the UK that have an EU VAT number to continue the supply to EU customers. They will be cut off as well by the CE markings.

 

Or what to think about an item that is produced in the EU and has a CE marking (there is no address on the item as it isn't needed with the EU) shipped to the UK by a retailer and when the retailer sold it to a buyer in the EU it can't be re-imported ???

 

Ed

Edited by etendam
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18 hours ago, etendam said:

The Dutch post (PostNL) just released the new rules for purchases from non-EU countries after July 1st.

 

Shipments up to € 150 will have VAT added + Handling fee per shipment (€4.00 when paid online or €7.00 at a pickup point)

Shipments from € 150 will have VAT added + Handling fee per shipment (€10.00 when paid online or €13.00 at a pickup point) + Duties (Modeltrains = € 0)

 

You will need to pay VAT for any products that arrive in the Netherlands from 1 July on wards. The purchase date is IRRELEVANT! It is possible that you already paid the VAT but the handling fee will always be charged. If you choose not to pay online the parcel is send to a pickup point and you have 7 days to collect the parcel and pay the fee. After 7 days it will be shipped back!

 

After July 16th the NEW CE marking rules for modeltrains also apply. CE Mark products (Modeltrains, Toys & Electrical equipment) cannot be sold online in Europe without an Authorized Representative based in Europe. Make sure that the items you buy f.i. from the UK, US or Far East have a CE mark and the details of the Authorized Representative in the EU on EVERY product. 

 

The Authorized Representative however will demand from manufacturers / suppliers that his name will ONLY on the items that are imported by him to avoid self import and make him responsible for the CE responsibility. So we will soon get back to EU importers.

 

Ebay will block Ads from business sellers on EU Ebay sites that don't have a VAT number. How they tackle the CE Marking is not clear to me yet but in their policy is stated that listed items that needs CE marking from outside the EU must have it. So items that are offered after July 16th must meet the new rules to prevent suspending of an account. 

 

So it will not be so easy to get items that are not available from EU sellers. 

 

Ed

So is this just for Holland or the whole of the EU?   

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10 hours ago, rekoboy said:

The publisher in question stopped my subscription to the magazine 'Modelleisenbahner' which I had had since GDR days with the comment that it would resume when there was a full Brexit agreement! My stream of e-mails have been either unanswered or answered with meaningless platitudes.

Thanks and commiserations. What is odd is the fact that when I phoned in February there appears be no issue and they took my money. Surely they wouldn’t have taken my money if they knew they wouldn’t be able to fulfil their obligation.

I think I’d better email them and see if I can’t at least get my money back.

Robert

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1 hour ago, irishmail said:

So is this just for Holland or the whole of the EU?   

The handling fees mentioned are for the Netherlands as every country have their own costs. (some up to € 20,00 per shipment) but the rest is for ALL EU countries as they are NEW EU regulations. 

 

Ed

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10 hours ago, etendam said:

 

Kits also start with the HS code 95 and this is the code for Toys, Games And Sports Equipment. Every item starting with a HS code 95 is on alert with the customs. They must have CE Markings. There is an exception... and one is the mark EACH item (on the outside of the package of the item AND in the instructions) that the kit is collector item and only suitable for age 14 years and older. But as the customs are well aware that this will be used to avoid the CE there are a number of remarks before you classify an item like this.

 

The kit therefor must have a huge number of parts and can't be made kids. A 3D printed kit is therefore NOT exempted from CE

A loco / wagon / kits of that is similar available from manufacturers like Marklin / Fleischmann /  other that have CE markings will be used for comparison to determine by the customs if it should have a CE marking or not. It is VERY difficult and a long process to convince that the customs made the wrong judgement - in the meantime the seller is offered 2 options: Either pay the costs of the customs and shipping then the items are returned to the sender of the items are scrapped within a month. On a daily basis a few containers with items are scrapped by the customs just in the Netherlands.

 

Small suppliers will quickly become fully dependent on a business partners in the EU with whom they will have to do their business. The prices for buyers will of course rise as a result, because the importer also wants to earn money from it. (and will act as an Authorized Representative based in Europe for CE)

 

It is strange that some have not yet done so while relying in part on customers from the EU for their turnover.

Most notably, a range of items manufactured in the EU does not require CE marking (because the manufacturer is directly liable for the product) and importation of the same item then the CE marking is necessity for entry into the EU.

 

Although the EU indicates that it is about improving product safety, the EU will protect the internal market in this way and it will prevent everyone (especially in China) from placing a CE logo on all items by default.

 

Ed

Ed,

 

the suppliers I am thinking of are the etched kit producers, wheel and fittings manufacturers, etc. Their sales into the EU are likely to be only a few £k per annum at  most so the costs and complexity of meeting the requirements you outline will probably deter  the majority of them.  

 

Jol

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On 11/06/2021 at 09:02, rekoboy said:

The publisher in question stopped my subscription to the magazine 'Modelleisenbahner' which I had had since GDR days with the comment that it would resume when there was a full Brexit agreement! My stream of e-mails have been either unanswered or answered with meaningless platitudes.

It's possible to buy electronic (PDF) copies of the various magazines they publish from their (new) website. Earlier this year it wasn't possible to register with a UK address; now it is. 

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On 11/06/2021 at 22:47, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Suddenly I think I have a lot of friends in the UK model railway cottage industry field who will be sending me presents, although presumably the bureaucrats will have thought of this.

 

Mike.

Wrong...the bureaucrats will have thought of this however there is still a free amount of € 45. There is only a very limited amount of annual shipments from friends. (They keep records for this to avoid abuse) Please note that the CE-Marking in this situation is the same! Without it the customs hold the shipment until the paperwork is complete!

 

Also there is some confusion about second hand items. Second hand items will also be hit with VAT (& duties if duties apply - Not for modeltrains)

For the CE it must be very clear that the item is used. An item like new / or with an undamaged box is handled as a new item.

 

Some countries (As discussed before like France) will not accept any items from the Toy category (Starting with HS code 95..) without CE. So producers of kits and bits can't ship to some countries without CE. Even not as Friend.

 

Ed

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I can imagine these rules causing problems for those German modellers modelling US railroads — there must be a fair number of them given that MIBA has produced a special on the subject, though not as many as in Anglophone countries. I can't see Atlas, Athearn and the like — let alone some of the smaller concerns — going with CE markings.

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Re VAT changes from 1st July.

Would anyone here know if these changes will affect the current €150.00/£135.00 limit , for example Hatton's are currently registered for VAT in Ireland and some other EU countries.  From 1st July will we be paying additional VAT on orders from the likes of Hatton's?   

I have tried searching the internet for answers , but the information seems very confusing!!

Going to make the hobby more expensive if  that's the case.

 

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22 minutes ago, irishmail said:

I have tried searching the internet for answers , but the information seems very confusing!!

 

That seems a regular thing regarding travel, buying, selling and a host of other EU/Rest of the World related items.

 

Mike.

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2 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

So how does, say for example, Mike Edge get a CE marking to allow me to buy his kits?

 

Mike.

There are 2 ways to get a CE marking:

- self-certification. The manufacturer)assessing the conformity of your products yourself. This includes carrying out a conformity assessment, setting up a technical file, issuing a declaration of conformity, and affixing the CE mark logo to your product. Manufacturers for most products can affix the CE mark without the involvement of a third party. 

- third-party certification. You contract an company that can do the assessment for you.

 

As the new regulations require that you should have a Authorized Representative within the EU and their Name / Address details must be on the package of each item, the self-certification will be a less usable option as the Authorized Representative wants clear proof that the CE Marking process has been done properly as they will be responsible if there is an issue with a product.

 

So a small manufacturer should not only get their CE Marking but have to look for a dealer in the EU (That is willing to act as an Authorized Representative) and also wants to earn money from the sales as well to continue selling within the EU. As said before the EU is talking about product safety but on the backdoor they protect the internal EU market. As the same kit manufacturer is based in the EU he would not need a CE marking when he states on the product that the kits can't be made by children under 14 years old.

 

So setting up a selling hub by this company in the EU and just sent out technical parts (these are not classified as toys and are therefor hit with duties!) and there "assemble / pack the set" in the EU and then sell it. This is why there was an article in the Guardian where the UK government encouraged to set up separate companies inside the EU (and it isn't just because of the Brexit as the New CE marking rules where also announced more then 3 years ago!) 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/23/brexit-hit-firms-advised-government-officials-set-up-shop-in-eu 

 

Ed

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46 minutes ago, irishmail said:

Re VAT changes from 1st July.

Would anyone here know if these changes will affect the current €150.00/£135.00 limit , for example Hatton's are currently registered for VAT in Ireland and some other EU countries.  From 1st July will we be paying additional VAT on orders from the likes of Hatton's?   

I have tried searching the internet for answers , but the information seems very confusing!!

Going to make the hobby more expensive if  that's the case.

 

 

Hattons can change their VAT registration in different countries (But it isn't mandatory!) into one EU VAT number. Then they can pay all EU VAT in the country of registration and then the tax authority of this country will pay the tax to other countries. That is the One Stop Shop idea.

Above the € 150 in the EU Hattons will not pay the VAT for you and you have to pay this at the shipping company. 

 

The catch in here are the CE Marking regulations. Hattons may after July 16th only export items to the EU that have CE markings AND have Name / Address details of the Authorized Representative within the EU on the package each item otherwise the customs will (or can) block items to avoid they come into the EU. This is what kills the UK export. Hornby has setup a selling hub in the EU, but I haven't seen much from other manufacturers.

 

So either they waited to see what will happen with the CE markings or they will sell in the EU through a very large retailer (and appoint him as the authorized representative) or they are not interested in buyers outside the UK anymore? The UK is setting up their own CE marking system UKCA but this isn't mandatory until 2023 AND they need to recognize each system first that the UKCA will also be allowed in the EU. But as it looks now this can take a few years. 

 

Ed

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53 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

That seems a regular thing regarding travel, buying, selling and a host of other EU/Rest of the World related items.

 

Mike.

Exactly, this is what I didn't understand why both the UK and the EU claimed they would both prosper the most about leaving as several new regulations where announced several years back and you could see what would happen here. I just think there are more losers than winners in the story.

 

The modeltrain (or Toy) industry is perhaps 0.0001% of the total export / Import and therefor was not a part in the negotiations :nono:

manufacturers their primary focus is on the internal market. (as it was ehhh 40 years ago?)

Ed

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Thanks for your most informative replies Ed.

I might as well pack in railway modelling then, European railways don't particularly interest me and it would seem they are the only models I am going to get without a ridiculous amount of hassle.

 

Mike.

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1 hour ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Thanks for your most informative replies Ed.

I might as well pack in railway modelling then, European railways don't particularly interest me and it would seem they are the only models I am going to get without a ridiculous amount of hassle.

 

Mike.

Hi Mike,

While I do sympathise with your position and not denying it’s a tough one, all need not be lost. There are ways of obtaining British (or North American) outline stock from within Europe although I’m well aware it’s not easy, it’s not impossible.

There’s German eBay: https://www.ebay.de/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=Hornby&_sacat=180250&rt=nc&LH_PrefLoc=3&_ipg=200

This search picks up everything “Hornby” that is listed in the EU.

There is Catawiki in Holland: https://www.catawiki.com/s/?q=Hornby&sort=relevancy_desc  - not much right now but there has been much more.

 

Plus there are dealers selling brand new items such as;

Menzels in Germany: https://www.menzels-lokschuppen.de/index.php?cl=alist&searchparam=&cnid=8e54dfb6cb21b258fc7b6aa28c025&attrfilter[Hersteller][Bachmann_Branchline]=1&fnc=executefilter

 

Surely there are other model shops in Europe that sell UK outline?

John

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I think Mike's concern is more about buying UK produced kits such as the Judith Edge range, rather than UK outline RTR. RTR sell in vastly  greater volumes than kits and the overseas demand for kits is,  not surprisingly, very small. Hence it is probably not really viable for the kits and bits suppliers to sell into the EU now.

 

Would it be worth any EU based retailer taking on UK kit distribution? Don't forget that the great majority of Small Suppliers are direct sellers and often not  big enough to be VAT registered. So a retailer margin and local VAT will have to be added to UK prices as far as I can see. So it might be theoretically cheaper to sell direct to the EU taking into the requirements Ed has clearly set out, but is the extra workload, administration, research, etc.  needed to do that worthwhile?

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