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Buying and Selling models to/from Europe


creweboy
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Yes Jol, my fears exactly.

My days of reasonably easily being able to buy "cottage industry" kits and bits seem to be rapidly receding into the distance.

The only way I can see round is to have things shipped to a UK address and forwarded on, but I don't k ow about the legality of that, plus, it guarantees that the courier company will rip me off on handling charges for collecting the inevitable (and acceptable due to the situation) local taxes.

 

Mike.

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Back in the early days of my railway modelling, when everything was still in black and white, my prized 'wishing book' was a W&H Catalogue of the 1970's. W&H were a model railway wholesaler and their catalogue was full of odd bits and pieces and kits from small manufacturers. I think they closed down in the 1990's though.

 

Is now the time for the reappearance of such a business, who could navigate the ins and outs of exporting to Europe, and supply the produce of our cottage industries? Peco is also expanding in a similar sort of direction, with various well known names of some of the larger, small suppliers now appearing under their banner.

 

Maybe all is not lost, but may emerge in a different guise?

 

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Ah, I see!

Thanks, Jol, I was getting hold of the wrong end of the stick - not for the first time!

My better half and I did look at one of those companies opening up in N.I. who were promising to receive and forward mails one way or the other but for us, it wasn’t worth it. I think the one I looked at wanted about £60 per year plus a certain amount for each item sent on.

Things being as they are, people are bound to find ways around new laws, it’s human nature. In the meantime, we have to be patient and or do the old “nothing/goods to declare” routine by going in person.

Good luck to you all,

John

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I note that we're six months in, so it would seem that the difficulties and expense are not teething troubles but here to stay. Ironic really as the bit those responsible said they liked was the bit that facilitated easy trade between the rest of the EU and the UK.

 

One thing that isn't clear to me is what would be the situation if sending a home made gift from the UK to an EU country, one which had no easily attributable monetary value? I used to make and sell a small range of narrow gauge resin kits. There have been times when I've sent them as gifts to friends. OK they had a market value but the cost in resin was in pennies. If I chose to make some resin van bodies just for myself and not for resale and I sent a couple as presents, what would be the tax or duty situation?

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We did this once in the US. I went  to a 'train store' and my US friend bought a couple of Walthers  AMTRAK FP40s. I then paid for dinner for our families. He gave me the locos as gifts, at which point they were not new but second hand. This meant that when I returned to the UK I had no issues with customs as the second hand value was around $10 each...:D

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31 minutes ago, Grizz said:

We did this once in the US. I went  to a 'train store' and my US friend bought a couple of Walthers  AMTRAK FP40s. I then paid for dinner for our families. He gave me the locos as gifts, at which point they were not new but second hand. This meant that when I returned to the UK I had no issues with customs as the second hand value was around $10 each...:D

 

The gift option (up to € 45 value) is still possible but that is totally not the issue. Any gift with a value above that will just be added with VAT and perhaps (depending on what it is) duties. The issue is CE Marking ! There is no difference if you purchase an item or a gift if it comes to the CE marking. If there is no CE mark on the box AND a Name / Address details of the Authorized Representative within the EU on the package, the customs will not let the modeltrains come into the EU as it is classified as NOT a safe toy. 

 

So model trains are exempt from import duties, but without the CE marking they are no longer allowed to enter the EU.......That is the issue. The options mentioned by sending it to friends or one which had no easily attributable monetary value doesn't release you from the CE markings.

 

Ed

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4 hours ago, Ian Morgan said:

Back in the early days of my railway modelling, when everything was still in black and white, my prized 'wishing book' was a W&H Catalogue of the 1970's. W&H were a model railway wholesaler and their catalogue was full of odd bits and pieces and kits from small manufacturers. I think they closed down in the 1990's though.

 

Is now the time for the reappearance of such a business, who could navigate the ins and outs of exporting to Europe, and supply the produce of our cottage industries? Peco is also expanding in a similar sort of direction, with various well known names of some of the larger, small suppliers now appearing under their banner.

 

Maybe all is not lost, but may emerge in a different guise?

 

I think this is also my guess for the future for small companies to continue exporting to the EU. Wholesalers can setup a business in the UK and in the EU. If they also do the CE markings and appoint their own EU hub as the Authorized Representative within the EU there is a win-win.

 

Small companies will of course share a part of their profit but for wholesalers it will be very easy: it is export to the EU or NOT. Of course you can also wait until 2023 until the UKCA are perhaps aligned with the EU CE. Hornby and Bachmann are doing the same.

 

And that the prices for customers in the EU will rise with a minimum of 50 % that is also obvious. (Just take the VAT, handling charges and profit for the wholesaler)

 

As mentioned by me before the EU says the CE is about Toy / Electrical / Product safety but indirectly they protect the internal market as the costs of imports will rise quickly and this offers chances for businesses in the EU to jump into gaps.

 

Ed

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3 hours ago, etendam said:

So model trains are exempt from import duties, but without the CE marking they are no longer allowed to enter the EU.......That is the issue.

 

While this will certainly apply to RTR model trains, I think you are overstating the problem with regard to the more specialised items like kits, detailing items and models that are expressly not intended for children.

 

With reference to the

Council Directive 88/378/EEC of 3 May 1988 on the approximation of the laws of the Member States concerning the safety of toys

it states under ANNEX I:

"PRODUCTS NOT REGARDED AS TOYS FOR THE PURPOSE OF THIS DIRECTIVE 

(Article 1 (1)) 

1. Christmas decorations

2. Detailed scale models for adult collectors

3. etc."

 

As I think it has already been mentioned here, a supplier only has to print "Not for children under 14 years of age", or words to that effect, and the problem is solved.

 

David

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Kylestrome said:

 

While this will certainly apply to RTR model trains, I think you are overstating the problem with regard to the more specialised items like kits, detailing items and models that are expressly not intended for children.

 

With reference to the

Council Directive 88/378/EEC of 3 May 1988 on the approximation of the laws of the Member States concerning the safety of toys

it states under ANNEX I:

"PRODUCTS NOT REGARDED AS TOYS FOR THE PURPOSE OF THIS DIRECTIVE 

(Article 1 (1)) 

1. Christmas decorations

2. Detailed scale models for adult collectors

3. etc."

 

As I think has already been mentioned here, a supplier only has to print "Not for children under 14 years of age", or words to that effect, and the problem is solved.

 

David

David,

That is correct but see my post from last Friday and the first post on page 23:

 

The Royal Mails's general notes on the matter say....., 

 

"Toys, games and sports requisites; parts and accessories thereof

The importation of toys is subject to an indication on the toy or its packaging of:

– the name, corporate name or brand and the Community address of the manufacturer, its representative or the importer;

– the CE symbol. 

The importer must have, for the disposal of the Customs, a production file containing information on the means used to determine that the toys comply with safety requirements".

 

The general note above applies to all items starting with the HS code 95........and this includes items that are FREE of CE markings. Model railway parts are exempt from CE markings within the EU as well. Shipping companies do not want to take a risk that a shipment may not enter the EU and for them it is the easiest that all items should follow the general rules.

 

Maybe convince them and customs that there are a few exceptions and then the problem is solved? 

 

Ed

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1 hour ago, etendam said:

As mentioned by me before the EU says the CE is about Toy / Electrical / Product safety but indirectly they protect the internal market as the costs of imports will rise quickly and this offers chances for businesses in the EU to jump into gaps.

 

I await with interest, not to mention bated breath, for an EU domiciled company to start manufacturing etched brass kits of obscure diesel shunters in 4mm scale suitable for building to EM or P4 gauges.

Politicians, don't start me off!

 

Mike.

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11 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

I await with interest, not to mention bated breath, for an EU domiciled company to start manufacturing etched brass kits of obscure diesel shunters in 4mm scale suitable for building to EM or P4 gauges.

Politicians, don't start me off!

 

Mike.

Mike,

 

UK kit manufacturers have possibilities to market their products in the EU.....

- Share the design with a company in the EU and get pad for the design work or for each item that is sold. The EU partner have the items etched in the EU and sell them. Model railway parts that are made & sold in the EU are exempted from CE Markings!

- Sell the etch plates and perhaps whitemetal castings as raw materials (do NOT ship them under HS code 95 !)  to an EU partner. He packs the items, add the instructions and send them to buyers. No CE marking is needed as they are sold as model railway parts!

 

Due to the Brexit agreement most raw materials will not hit with tariffs. Perhaps only the items that are made in a third country. (Country of origin)

 

UK Modeltrain manufacturers can do the same as long as the parts (Non assembled wagons, locomotives etc) are shipped in large bags (or a box) but not individually packed, without instructions and shipped as raw materials or parts for production. When the EU partner assembles them to a ready to run item, they can do a self certification for the CE. (They need to learn and perhaps pay how to do this only once and then repeat the process for every item)

 

So we are back at working with another wholesaler, partner or a production facility in the EU, what I think is the best solution for  lot's of non EU manufacturers to be in compliance.

 

Ed

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Once again @etendam, thanks for your valued advice, and I'm not knocking you or it in any way, but;

Based on the above, and thinking somewhat outside of the box, I could set myself up as an EU partner and share the design work, (if the original owner of it was willing to go down that route), and get myself a kit etched in the EU, (easily done when Jimmy Krankie has taken the scots into the EU and I can use PPD), or I can receive a bag of random etchings without any instructions, (much like a Bill Bedford kit then really?, I've been there!) and set up a production facility.

Apart from what will be a monumental cost no doubt, and a veritable forest of paperwork guaranteed, the other complication is that I can't see me selling more than ones of kits, that's another brilliant EU solution which bites the dust.

I think I'll just wait until I move back home, it's far simpler, and despite what many UK residents think, a far better country.

 

Mike.

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My opinion….

 

The chances of a business setting themselves up to sell UK produced kit products in Europe is pure fantasy.

 

The market for such products is tiny; half a dozen dedicated enthusiasts on an internet forum does not constitute a profitable marketing opportunity.

 

Going forward, obtaining UK products in Europe will involve getting on a plane with a large suitcase.

 

 

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23 minutes ago, wirey33 said:

Going forward, obtaining UK products in Europe will involve getting on a plane with a large suitcase.

 

And potentially arguing with some bloke in a peaked hat at the airport about what taxes and duties etc might or might not be payable, or maybe the blokes with the scanner might think that the suitcase will go bang in mid-air because they can see some wires on their xray screen.  Best not tell tell them the package contains plastic.

 

I wasn't challenged when I brought a couple of HO Shays back with me on a trip to Washington but that was in the good old days.  British Customs officials wore a very smart uniform, called you sir and wanted to know how much foreign currency you were taking out if the country rather than what you brought in.  Foreign Customs men practically saluted when you produced the old blue cardboard passport with better quality printing than any banknote - somehow I don't think the new blue one, which I understand is to be printed in France, will be any better than than my current EU which looks almost as impressive as a savings passbook from the Walthamstow Building Society.  And business travel was more about nubile stewardesses who ensured you were well supplied with G&T.  On the other hand, US Customs & Immigration seemed more worried about agriculture - I was asked to declare that I hadn't been on a ranch or a farm outside the USA - I asked them if there was such a thing as a ranch outside the USA

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1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 US Customs & Immigration seemed more worried about agriculture - I was asked to declare that I hadn't been on a ranch or a farm outside the USA - I asked them if there was such a thing as a ranch outside the USA

My missus had to surrender some snacking dried fruit, loose in a bag, on entering at New Jersey airport as it was prohibited goods.

Strange as it might have even originated in the US to start with.

They were very hot on anything like that, even apples and such like for your lunch. At least the guys themselves seem to be good humoured.

 

Plenty of ranches in other countries.

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7 hours ago, wirey33 said:

Going forward, obtaining UK products in Europe will involve getting on a plane with a large suitcase.

 

Depending on the robustness of the inspection regime at the airports, if you try and bring anything without a CE sticker and an EU distributors name back, we're doomed to failure as far as I can deduce.

How ever it gets into the EU from an outside country is of no consequence.

 

Mike.

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4 hours ago, melmerby said:

My missus had to surrender some snacking dried fruit, loose in a bag, on entering at New Jersey airport as it was prohibited goods.

Strange as it might have even originated in the US to start with.

They were very hot on anything like that, even apples and such like for your lunch. At least the guys themselves seem to be good humoured.

 

Plenty of ranches in other countries.

 

Very much my experience in several situations around the world that the customs forces are much more focused on whether you are going to inadvertently import some pest that will devastate their agriculture than whether you have a few bits of etched brass for personal use or even a few 15ml tins of illicit paint tucked into a plastic container.  

 

Not of course that I would encourage people to break the rules.  Rules it has to be said that are intended to protect the population from the mass importation of non-conforming products or the risk of a 10 litre can of emulsion bursting in transit and damaging a hundred co-travellers' luggage.

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48 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

Very much my experience in several situations around the world that the customs forces are much more focused on whether you are going to inadvertently import some pest that will devastate their agriculture

Going to India used to amuse me, as we as Europeans tend to look down on S Asian countries as being unhygienic, however before you land the cabin crew have to disinfect the plane's cabin with powerful aerosol sprays.

They don't do it when you leave!

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I've just had to pay an additional 127 pounds import VAT for an item (an EPM model) ordered from France. I put in the order at the start of last year, so expected to get it while we were still in the transition period, but Covid delayed production until 2021. I suppose the risk was mine but I'll be trying very hard to source French material from UK importers from now on, so at least I have an idea of the up-front costs. On the whole it will certainly make modelling French railways more complicated and expensive from now on.

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On 18/06/2021 at 14:56, Michael Hodgson said:

And potentially arguing with some bloke in a peaked hat at the airport about what taxes and duties etc might or might not be payable, or maybe the blokes with the scanner might think that the suitcase will go bang in mid-air because they can see some wires on their xray screen.  Best not tell tell them the package contains plastic.

 

 

I took a loco through Manchester Airport some time ago, and the customs guy was obviously excited by the large lump of dense material (the loco weight) and some wires he saw on the x-ray.  The conversation went like this...

 

"Is this your bag Sir?"

"Yes, and it's a model railway locomotive you can see"

"Oh...................Ohhhhhhhhhh, my Dad used to have a layout in the garage. I remember it was Perko and Hornby"

"Peco. They make the track."

"That's right. He used to paint all the little figures and make his own scenery. Sorry to delay you, have a good flight."

 

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I know the scanners they use at BWI airport in the US come up with the same "signature" for a model rail loco as they do for a handgun! 

As it seemed to happen every time I was heading back to the UK after buying something from MB Kleins, I actually asked the official on the scanner what she thought I had in my hand baggage and that was what she said. She thought it was rather funny when I told her what it actually was.....

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Back in the days when aircraft were considered to be a target for bomb attacks I had to travel with equipment that I used for weld testing. This included a rucksack sized pack that contained an ultrasonic testing machine with a CRT and various wires and probes.I was never asked any questions about it although I was prepared for such an eventuality. Funnily enough a medium format camera usually prompted a good look and a check that it actually was a camera.

Bernard

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For those who are importing  model trains from the EU in the UK:

 

https://www.tuv.com/content-media-files/master-content/rs/Attachments/2198_TUV_Rheinland_UKCA_toy.pdf

 

The new CE Marking regulations that the EU is setting from July the 16th are almost similar to the regulations in the UK with the UKCA. On Jan 1st 2023 the UK based importer names and addresses must be available on the products! So from this date it will be as difficult for any manufacturer in the EU to market products in the UK. Perhaps the only difference is that the UK market is smaller and manufacturers can decide not to export to the UK anymore.

 

Ed

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