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Buying and Selling models to/from Europe


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Secondhand items that are more than xxx years old (sorry I haven't got the exact number of years on my head) are exempted from CE Marking. The question is however how you want to ship them if you need to upload the CE paperwork upon shipping? This is the same question as for model train parts. They are also exempted but if you can't ship them it isn't going to help much.

You can always ship an item with another HS code (Not Toys starting with 95...) but if the customs opens the package they will hold the shipment until the paperwork arrives. 

There is no difference if items are shipped privately or as a business for the CE Marking. The regulations are the same!

Otherwise all businesses will only ship privately.

 

Ed

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Amazon offers the possibility for sellers that use their platform to act as a legal representative:

https://aluragroup.com/eu-market-surveillance-regulation-2019-1020-will-your-products-be-blocked-from-entry-into-the-eu/ 

https://cemarking.net/amazon-responsible-person-ce-marked-products/

 

Of course you must do the CE marking yourself, but this helps if you don't want to use an importer or open an office in the EU.

The downside is that you can only sell through Amazon. The last months Amazon removed all Ads where CE is required and items where not in compliance.

 

There are several messages on forums where non-EU sellers where they told that Amazon removed more than 700 Ads until they have the CE markings sorted out. As they are just resellers and some manufacturers are not willing to help they can't sell their stock anymore in the EU just locally. Not everybody is happy with the new regulations but they were announced 2 years ago... so you should have time to make arrangements or do the right investments as a business seller. 

 

Ed

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39 minutes ago, etendam said:

Does this not apply more to Asian products import, especcially for private imports from China, because this information is also in Chinese.

Most we buy from the UK retailers are products imported by official companies, so just like Brexit wait and we will see how it goes.

There was a lot of worrying on this forum before the Brexit, well after the Brexit I have no trouble to buy from the UK, Hattons is just like before 

and others a bit more work and some higher cost, but overall easy to do.

Maybe this CE rules has more to do with direct import from Asian countries.  

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On 21/05/2021 at 17:07, Neils WRX said:

Finally had the letter from Parcel Force, they say I owe them £47 which £35 VAT and £12 handling charge.

 

I contacted the shop I purchased the coaches from (by Ebay) and they say Ebay should have collected the UK VAT, so no idea why I've been stung. Guess I take the matter up with them ?

 

What I thought was a good price for 3 coaches is now a bit of rip off.

 

Stay safe everyone,

 

Neil

 

Repeated the transaction (by Ebay, similar value), parcel arrived by Royal Mail, no demand for extra payment.

 

Confused.... Think this is completely hit and miss.

 

Stay safe everyone.

 

Neil

 

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14 hours ago, etendam said:

Perhaps the only difference is that the UK market is smaller and manufacturers can decide not to export to the UK anymore.

I strongly suspect that the EU market for models of UK railways is smaller than the UK market for models of EU railways, despite the difference in population size. A greater proportion of models in the UK are also supplied by smaller firms. As it is many UK firms have decided to stop doing business in Europe.

 

There is clearly going to be a much increased demand for customs officers!

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2 hours ago, Cor-onGRT4 said:

Maybe this CE rules has more to do with direct import from Asian countries.  

It is my understanding that the new rules coming into force in the EU on July 1st, and the same rules that the UK implemented on January 1st are precisely about that.

 

Specifically sellers in China abusing the system by using false declarations on goods shipped to get around VAT. i.e. declaring the value to be below what was the VAT exempt threshold, regardless of the actual value of the item.

 

It will also force intra EU shipments to levy VAT at the destination country's rate rather than that of the shipping country.

 

As I live in the US this is all moot for me, but there are things that I don't understand about the impact of the legislation, and as I have lived all my adult life, until now, as a citizen/subject of a country was in the EU then I have no experience of how things "used to be".

 

It seems to me that until the UK and EU agree on UKCA an CE equivalence then it is illegal for an individual to purchase and bring into the UK, by whatever means, a model train.

Or for an EU citizen to do the opposite. I find that hard to accept, although I do agree with the principle that you shouldn't be able to get around local laws by buying from a different country online. (Guns and dodgy electrical goods spring to mind)

 

Hopefully some sort of agreement will be put into place in the next year or so, we'll have to wait and see.

 

Regards,

 

John P

 

 

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4 hours ago, Cor-onGRT4 said:

Maybe this CE rules has more to do with direct import from Asian countries.  

 

This has nothing to do with import from Asian countries! The CE markings applies to ALL imports in the EU. If you import items from the US, UK or Asia and they don't meet the new CE marking regulations the customs are entitled to prevent the shipment from entering the EU. If your shipment is hold at the customs it isn't the responsibility of the seller anymore, it is yours (They also don't have to refund you, as you bought items outside the EU market! You must know what you can import and what not, it is similar to forbidden items that may not enter a country.

 

France has already set Toys on the list of forbidden items for import! (So even with the correct CE marking)

https://crossborder.fedex.com/us/assets/prohibited-restricted/france/index.shtml

 

Ed

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I am still trying to understand/make sense of the VAT changes from July 1st.   Looking at Hatton's they are registered for VAT in 

Belgium, France, Germany, Ireland (Republic of),Italy, Netherlands (Holland), Spain (mainland) & UK.  

https://www.hattons.co.uk/list/eventdetails.aspx?eventid=113

 

On the revenue.ie website is states that VAT will be payable on all imports from 1st July.  https://www.revenue.ie/en/importing-vehicles-duty-free-allowances/buying-of-goods-online-for-personal-use/buying-goods-from-outside-the-eu.aspx

Note

From 1 July 2021, import VAT will be payable on all goods entering the EU, irrespective of their value. VAT will always be collected, irrespective of the amount due. If you order goods valued at €22 or less before 1 July 2021, that arrive after that date, you may have to pay VAT.

 

My question is, as Hatton's are registered for VAT in Ireland, will I still have to pay additional VAT (23% + fees) after July 1st?  

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10 hours ago, etendam said:

Secondhand items that are more than xxx years old (sorry I haven't got the exact number of years on my head) are exempted from CE Marking. The question is however how you want to ship them if you need to upload the CE paperwork upon shipping? This is the same question as for model train parts. They are also exempted but if you can't ship them it isn't going to help much.

You can always ship an item with another HS code (Not Toys starting with 95...) but if the customs opens the package they will hold the shipment until the paperwork arrives. 

There is no difference if items are shipped privately or as a business for the CE Marking. The regulations are the same!

Otherwise all businesses will only ship privately.

 

Ed

 

7 hours ago, Georgeconna said:

Brexit well worth it for this change then..

 

 

1 hour ago, irishmail said:

Yes Boris's amazing Trade deal! 

 

Speaking as an UK citizen trying to model British Railways in a EU country, THIS IS GETTING EFFING RIDICULOUS1

 

Mike.

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3 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

 

 

Speaking as an UK citizen trying to model British Railways in a EU country, THIS IS GETTING EFFING RIDICULOUS1

 

Mike.

Quite a few of us in this situation I think.

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25 minutes ago, irishmail said:

My question is, as Hatton's are registered for VAT in Ireland, will I still have to pay additional VAT (23% + fees) after July 1st?  

 

My understanding is that Hattons will deduct the UK VAT (20%)  and charge you Irish VAT (23%).  You will only have to pay the 23% charged by Hattons, plus import duty (0% for model trains).

 

I'm not sure whether you or Hattons is the importer.

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Over the last week I've had two orders from Digikeijs in Holland. The cost of the first was €115 when added to the basket, but reduced to €94 when I checked out having given my address as UK. Expected to have to pay 20% VAT but it was delivered by DHL having cleared customs with no charge. Second order for €171 took the same path - was charged €141 at checkout and no-one's asked me about UK VAT. 

 

Both orders are both under £135 and it's not yet July 1st so is that perhaps why?

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3 hours ago, irishmail said:

My question is, as Hatton's are registered for VAT in Ireland, will I still have to pay additional VAT (23% + fees) after July 1st?  

NO, because this only applies for the new EU import rules after 1 July 2021, before this date, everything below € 23,- was VAT free import, but after 1 July all less than €23,- get charged with VAT on import.

 But for Hattons deliveries in Ireland, just like me here in the Netherlands and a few other countries, nothing changed because it all works different from Hattons,they pay all the VAT to customs, so all keeps the same

from them, you don't have to pay additional VAT or fees.

It only applies for others, if you order something below € 23,- you have to pay VAT and handling fee on this amount.

Over the € 23,- you always pay VAT over the total amount , before 1 July it was always the case for this, so for this nothing changed.

Edited by Cor-onGRT4
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Tried to order a Blue MN from Bure Models, No courier Option to Ireland. Cannie get it from them, hopefully the email I sent asking them if they are able to post it using RM then I might be able to go ahead with the Purchase!

 

The LMS had one for €199 about 10 notes difference from the UK price.

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On 16/06/2021 at 19:57, Kylestrome said:

 

While this will certainly apply to RTR model trains, I think you are overstating the problem with regard to the more specialised items like kits, detailing items and models that are expressly not intended for children.

 

With reference to the

Council Directive 88/378/EEC of 3 May 1988 on the approximation of the laws of the Member States concerning the safety of toys

it states under ANNEX I:

"PRODUCTS NOT REGARDED AS TOYS FOR THE PURPOSE OF THIS DIRECTIVE 

(Article 1 (1)) 

1. Christmas decorations

2. Detailed scale models for adult collectors

3. etc."

 

As I think it has already been mentioned here, a supplier only has to print "Not for children under 14 years of age", or words to that effect, and the problem is solved.

 

David

 

 

 

 

I think this is key, isn't it?

 

CE mark requirements for toys, is one thing, and as the 1988 Directive David mentioned, and reiterated in the the updated directive 2009/48/EC ( https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32009L0048 ) excludes scale models very explicitly.

 

Quote

ANNEX I

List of products that, in particular, are not considered as toys within the meaning of this Directive

(as referred to in Article 2(1))

1.

Decorative objects for festivities and celebrations

2.

Products for collectors, provided that the product or its packaging bears a visible and legible indication that it is intended for collectors of 14 years of age and above. Examples of this category are:

(a)

detailed and faithful scale models;

(b)

kits for the assembly of detailed scale models;

 

A separate issue is that, for customs purposes, the code for scale models is part of the '95' group of toys. 

 

It looks like Royal Mail might, as a shorthand, say that everything in customs code 95 (toys and associated goods) need a CE mark because that is true for the vast majority of stuff in that code. But customs and the CE mark seem to be defined on a separate basis, so this advice can't be anything but a shorthand, it seems.

 

If it were ever tested in court, I'd be very surprised if the "intended for adult collector over 14 years" qualification wasn't sufficient. In practice, I don't see any substantive change for models in terms of the CE marking/equivalent regulations. But perhaps some over-zealous advice, including from carriers who probably haven't even thought of this inconsistency between classifications when drawing up their advice/published rules?

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9 hours ago, Cor-onGRT4 said:

But for Hattons deliveries in Ireland, just like me here in the Netherlands and a few other countries, nothing changed because it all works different from Hattons,they pay all the VAT to customs, so all keeps the same

I've understand from earlier posts in this thread that this applies up to a value of 150 Euros. Above 150 Euros VAT needs to be paid to the carrier taking care of customs clearance

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I've just been stung for import duties on a Hornby Class 31 because the UK vendor used an incorrect code on the customs declaration. I'm wondering if there is any way of reclaiming this. Does anybody know?

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9 hours ago, justin1985 said:

 

A separate issue is that, for customs purposes, the code for scale models is part of the '95' group of toys. 

 

It looks like Royal Mail might, as a shorthand, say that everything in customs code 95 (toys and associated goods) need a CE mark because that is true for the vast majority of stuff in that code. But customs and the CE mark seem to be defined on a separate basis, so this advice can't be anything but a shorthand, it seems.

 

It doesn't do us any favours, but an understandable obfuscation by RM, and indeed other couriers, to keep things simple in their eyes and for their own systems and purposes.

It does though, highlight a lack of common sense and forethought by the powers that be, to randomly mix items which are in two different classifications under the same code.

The real issue will come when one of us on the wrong side of the fence orders something which should be excluded, but the couriers wrongly either refuse to deliver because of the lack, in their eyes, of a CE mark, or charge unnecessary taxes and duties, trying to get the item or monies returned will be the next thing to impossible I imagine. I'm still waiting for an explanation from DHL for the ridiculously excessive charges they levied on a UK-EU delivery, silence will be the couriers greatest ally.

 

Mike.

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1 hour ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

It does though, highlight a lack of common sense and forethought by the powers that be, to randomly mix items which are in two different classifications under the same code.

 

 

Definitely frustrating for us, isn't it? But when you browse through the classification system (https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/sections ) - which is of course a WTO type thing, rather than being UK or EU specific - it does make sense in its own way. 

 

Within "other manufactured goods", part of the classification of the broader category of toys (95) is a category including "reduced size ('scale') models" (in full "Tricycles, scooters, pedal cars and similar wheeled toys; dolls' carriages; dolls; other toys; reduced-size ('scale') models and similar recreational models, working or not; puzzles of all kinds"). Within that are categories for model trains (and accessories) as well as dolls (reduced size models of humans) and animal toys (reduced size models of animals). 

 

When you think about it, while it is obvious to US as enthusiasts that there is a world of difference between our prized working scale models and children's toys, how could you actually word a consistent distinction between a child's doll, and a ModelU printed figure of a loco driver? They are both a reduced size representation of a human, made from the same materials - the difference is pretty subjective, as obvious as it might seem to us. 

 

Fascinating when you think about it! As much as it pains us to put it in these terms, we are fundamentally grown ups playing with toys ...

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3 hours ago, LimboBrit said:

I've understand from earlier posts in this thread that this applies up to a value of 150 Euros. Above 150 Euros VAT needs to be paid to the carrier taking care of customs clearance

I know it is all very confusing on this topic, you mixing up different rules on customs duties and fees, but as explained before by me in this topic a while back, Hattons is DDP,duty delivered paid.

Every amount you order from them from 0- wathever amount,  they take care of all the duty and payment to customs.

No fees also, because all is setteld before shipping with dutch customs  [or others when shipping to other DDP countries]

I mostly order for over 200,- pound , because cheap shipping with DPD by road[ only 7,- pound till 3 kg.

And never paid any extra fees or VAT, only the first time in February it went wrong caused by theething problems with custom documents at Hattons,

i got all the fees and VAT paid back by Hattons, [ very good customerservice] but from then everything went fantastic, had several orders since and nothing went wrong since.

 

Hope this will help a bit.

 

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