Buying and Selling models to/from Europe

[peach james]

1 hour ago, EmporiaSub said:

I think something similar happens when Canadian Modellers exhibiting go south to the USA?

We had no problem bringing a layout across the US (from Seattle-Detroit) in 2016.  We had enough photos to prove what we took was ours, same goes for stock, but no issue on entry or exit from the US.  Digital cameras mean that photos taken the day before the border crossing are easy pickings now- and if you had it before you cross, then you certainly can have it coming back.

 

Even in the late 90's, I didn't have problems with bringing stuff across the border- we're really not something that the border guards are interested in, unless you are specifically selling or buying something of unusual value.

 

James

[SM42]

On 06/01/2021 at 13:27, Kylestrome said:

 

That was what I was hoping. However, The shop sent it in January by DHL Express which has probably put a spanner in the works.

 

There is also the question of returns. If I wanted to return this item (not that I'm going to), I will have paid the extra fee with, presumably, no chance of a refund.

 

This will probably be the last item I'll be ordering from the UK for a while.

 

David

 

Returns sound like  a nightmare. 

 

You paid your vat, handling fee etc and the item is faulty.

 

Would the same fees etc  be applicable on returning the item back across the border?

 

Andy

[Ian Morgan]

Today I received a parcel from Shapeways. I had ordered and paid for the items before the end of December. UPS handed over the parcel, no extra payment demanded, thank goodness. Not sure what happens for items ordered this year, and could not find any information on the Shapeways website.

 

 

[Ian Morgan]

You never know what will interest HM Customs. We spent a few years in Germany in the 1980's, working with the British Army. On our return, the removal company did not pick up the envelope with the list of contents and receipts for all the furniture and things we had acquired in Germany, so it all sat in Harwich for several weeks after we put the envelope in the post.

 

We drove back in two vehicles, a Volvo we had purchased tax-free under BFG rules and an old VW camper van we bought from a soldier. I was expecting to spend time at the border checking the Volvo paperwork, but they were more concerned about the camper van. Eventually I found an old UK tax disk in the glovebox and that satisfied them that it was not being imported. Up to that point, they were wanting me to pay duty on the camper van.

 

 

[Neil]

An interesting article in today's Guardian looks at the impact on EU citizens buying from the UK. In short it costs them appreciably more than it did before Jan 1st. It gives an example from a French consumer website of "a pair of trainers ordered from a UK website for £270 but manufactured in and shipped from China, saying customs duty of 16.9% and 20% French VAT would bring their cost to about £378." While I doubt many of us are in the market for expensive designer trainers if you swap footwear for sound equipped loco the relevance becomes apparent. while this is bad news for the enthusiast in the EU it's also bad news for UK companies as it makes their products less affordable.

[LimboBrit]

4 minutes ago, Neil said:

"a pair of trainers ordered from a UK website for £270 but manufactured in and shipped from China, saying customs duty of 16.9% and 20% French VAT would bring their cost to about £378."

I think the crucial point here is that the goods were being shipped from China and 16.9% duty is applicable . I understand that duty on model railway goods is 0%. My conclusion is that in general it is no longer interesting to buy stuff from the UK from non-VAT registered suppliers. Even when buying from VAT registered suppliers I will still be paying extra charges to the couriers for taking care of the VAT at the border. 

[Neils WRX]

Just found this thread, as a foreign modeller (Czech / Danish / Belgian) this could make life very difficult getting hold of bits or even limited edition models if companies will no longer ship to the UK. Can't recall the last bit of rolling stock I brought from a UK shop.

 

Will just have to watch this space.....

 

Stay safe everyone,

 

Neil

[Geep7]

47 minutes ago, LimboBrit said:

I think the crucial point here is that the goods were being shipped from China and 16.9% duty is applicable . I understand that duty on model railway goods is 0%. My conclusion is that in general it is no longer interesting to buy stuff from the UK from non-VAT registered suppliers. Even when buying from VAT registered suppliers I will still be paying extra charges to the couriers for taking care of the VAT at the border. 

The other crucial point being that all the European railway models now made under the Hornby brand (Electrotren, Arnold, Jouef etc.) are made in China, shipped to the UK and distributed from the warehouse in Kent....

 

Not sure what Bachmann's import model is, but this would effect Lilliput if they do similar.

[Geep7]

Just now, Neils WRX said:

Just found this thread, as a foreign modeller (Czech / Danish / Belgian) this could make life very difficult getting hold of bits or even limited edition models if companies will no longer ship to the UK. Can't recall the last bit of rolling stock I brought from a UK shop.

 

Will just have to watch this space.....

 

Stay safe everyone,

 

Neil

Funnily enough though, it might just make it "cheaper" to buy from the manufacturer, in the case of Hornby....

[LimboBrit]

2 minutes ago, Geep7 said:

all the European railway models now made under the Hornby brand (Electrotren, Arnold, Jouef etc.) are made in China, shipped to the UK and distributed from the warehouse in Kent....

I don’t think that makes much difference. I’m assuming that when any goods land in the UK from China all duties will be paid after which the agreement between the UK and EU comes into play. 

[Geep7]

Just now, LimboBrit said:

I don’t think that makes much difference. I’m assuming that when any goods land in the UK from China all duties will be paid after which the agreement between the UK and EU comes into play. 

I was more thinking if people from Europe buy direct from Hornby.... if that happens of course....

[LimboBrit]

1 minute ago, Geep7 said:

5 minutes ago, LimboBrit said:

 

I was more thinking if people from Europe buy direct from Hornby.... if that happens of course....

It does. I do. I live in the Netherlands. If I’ve done my homework correctly as long as I buy from a VAT registered supplier ( could be Hornby, Hattons, Rails...whoever) the price adders compared to pre-Brexit are the extra 1% Dutch VAT + courier customs handling charges so definately not cheaper

[Geep7]

8 minutes ago, LimboBrit said:

It does. I do. I live in the Netherlands. If I’ve done my homework correctly as long as I buy from a VAT registered supplier ( could be Hornby, Hattons, Rails...whoever) the price adders compared to pre-Brexit are the extra 1% Dutch VAT + courier customs handling charges so definately not cheaper

Ah, I see what you mean. Definitely not cheaper. And certainly won't be cheaper for me to buy Electrotren from a shop in Spain, rather than direct from Hornby, which is a shame.

 

As Neils WRX mentioned about, i've just discovered a great Spanish based outlet with a great website, full of bespoke detail parts specific to Spanish railways, that currently I can no longer buy from, and may be prohibitive, cost wise, to buy from again, unless I do a huge order.... As others have said, first world problem, but a bit frustrating to find so many red hoops to jump through, compared to how things were before.

[LimboBrit]

2 minutes ago, Geep7 said:

i've just discovered a great Spanish based outlet with a great website, full of bespoke detail parts specific to Spanish railways, that currently I can no longer buy from, and may be prohibitive, cost wise, to buy from again, unless I do a huge order

Maybe, maybe not. If the Spanish VAT rate is higher than the UK the difference in VAT rates will ( partly) offset the costs of customs clearance. You would need to make sure the Spanish VAT is deducted when you buy. The larger the order the less the pain percentage wise

[SM42]

1 hour ago, LimboBrit said:

I think the crucial point here is that the goods were being shipped from China and 16.9% duty is applicable . I understand that duty on model railway goods is 0%. My conclusion is that in general it is no longer interesting to buy stuff from the UK from non-VAT registered suppliers. Even when buying from VAT registered suppliers I will still be paying extra charges to the couriers for taking care of the VAT at the border. 

 

The crucial point as I understand it is that the trainers were made in China, exported to the UK. Sold to a French customer from a UK store and fell foul of the rules of origin (Chinese goods being imported into the EU)_

 

The import duty was payable as the goods had not been made in the UK   if they had the 16.9% would not have been payable, just the VAT and handling fee  AIUI

 

Luckily for model railways it's 0%, so just the VAT and fee to pay if you can find a trader that is prepared to jump through the new hoops to supply you

 

Andy

[LimboBrit]

52 minutes ago, SM42 said:

 

The import duty was payable as the goods had not been made in the UK   if they had the 16.9% would not have been payable, just the VAT and handling fee  AIUI

You may be right but wouldn’t that mean that import duty was being paid twice on the same goods? Once in the UK and again in Spain. My brain hurts 

[duff man]

10 hours ago, SM42 said:

 

Returns sound like  a nightmare. 

 

You paid your vat, handling fee etc and the item is faulty.

 

Would the same fees etc  be applicable on returning the item back across the border?

 

Andy

Most mainstream items are available through the UK dealer network, so buy in the UK and you avoid this problem with returns. Besides most UK dealers will offer a discount and could do with our support right now.

Further by buying at a domestic level you also avoid all the hassle of VAT, DUTY and agent handling fee's.

[SM42]

22 minutes ago, LimboBrit said:

You may be right but wouldn’t that mean that import duty was being paid twice on the same goods? Once in the UK and again in Spain. My brain hurts 

 

Yes. The duty for importing into the UK and again for importing into the EU. But paid by a different person each time and may be different rates for each customs territory. This is why there was a lot of wrangling about how much of a car must be UK made to qualify as a UK product when exported to the EU and not have tariffs applied.

 

I think a lot of people's brains hurt at the moment, mine included

 

14 minutes ago, duff man said:

Most mainstream items are available through the UK dealer network, so buy in the UK and you avoid this problem with returns. Besides most UK dealers will offer a discount and could do with our support right now.

Further by buying at a domestic level you also avoid all the hassle of VAT, DUTY and agent handling fee's.

 

But what if what I want isn't provided by a mainstream UK dealer as it is not a mainstream item?

 

Andy

[AlyP]

38 minutes ago, LimboBrit said:

You may be right but wouldn’t that mean that import duty was being paid twice on the same goods? Once in the UK and again in Spain. My brain hurts 

It would, unless the UK seller reclaims the import duty paid in the UK under Inward Processing Relief. More paperwork/red tape...

[duff man]

25 minutes ago, SM42 said:

 

Yes. The duty for importing into the UK and again for importing into the EU. But paid by a different person each time and may be different rates for each customs territory. This is why there was a lot of wrangling about how much of a car must be UK made to qualify as a UK product when exported to the EU and not have tariffs applied.

 

I think a lot of people's brains hurt at the moment, mine included

 

 

But what if what I want isn't provided by a mainstream UK dealer as it is not a mainstream item?

 

Andy

I think you have answered your own question. My comments clearly indicated mainstream items available from UK dealers instead of continental purchase. Obviously a more obscure item is a whole different ball game.

[Neils WRX]

1 hour ago, duff man said:

Most mainstream items are available through the UK dealer network, so buy in the UK and you avoid this problem with returns. Besides most UK dealers will offer a discount and could do with our support right now.

Further by buying at a domestic level you also avoid all the hassle of VAT, DUTY and agent handling fee's.

 

Heres an example of the problem, I wanted to purchase a Heljan Danish Model and despite them having UK distributors I had to buy the product direct from Heljan in Denmark. Had a long conversation with Heljan at the Model Railway Exhibition (remember those) in Glasgow last year, about this.

 

Personally I’d be happy to buy from a UK dealers, but a lot of European Manufacturers don’t sell in the UK so the models have to come from European outlets. Maybe next layout will have to be a GWR branchline....

 

Stay safe.

 

Neil

[SM42]

43 minutes ago, duff man said:

I think you have answered your own question. My comments clearly indicated mainstream items available from UK dealers instead of continental purchase. Obviously a more obscure item is a whole different ball game.

 

Whilst I agree for the niche item

 

Some of the items I wish to purchase are mainstream  and quite widely available in only one or two  particular countries in the EU where there is a market.

With a limited market in the UK they are not available here.

 

Even Piko at one point in the not too distant past  were only selling some models of interest in a limited number of countries. Fortunately they are more widely available now including the UK.

 

Other items are less mainstream and only available generally from one outlet in one country.

 

Andy

 

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by SM42

[Pacific231G]

On 08/01/2021 at 19:42, duff man said:

Most mainstream items are available through the UK dealer network, so buy in the UK and you avoid this problem with returns. Besides most UK dealers will offer a discount and could do with our support right now.

Further by buying at a domestic level you also avoid all the hassle of VAT, DUTY and agent handling fee's.

That's all very well if you just want to buy RTR mainstream products but, for anyone modelling somethnig more interesting, there will be a problem. For many years I've been dealing with a small but dynamic manufacturer and seller in France who, amongst more mainstream sales, produces very useful components for long out of production French rolling stock.

The number of modellers in Britain buying his products can probably be counted in tens so it'll never be worth his while to go through a complex registration process to trade with great Britain but, losing what he supplies will be a blow to our modelling efforts. And no I'm not going to just give up and model a GW branch line. 

Edited January 19, 2021 by Pacific231G
typo

[LimboBrit]

4 hours ago, duff man said:

Most mainstream items are available through the UK dealer network, so buy in the UK and you avoid this problem with returns. Besides most UK dealers will offer a discount and could do with our support right now.

Further by buying at a domestic level you also avoid all the hassle of VAT, DUTY and agent handling fee's.

This is not an option for some people. The bottom line is that buying from the other side of the English Channel just got more expensive and in some situations much more expensive I.e. from non VAT registered vendors

[Neils WRX]

Just made my first post Brexit purchase, shipping costs have now doubled!!

 

Thank you every one who voted to leave.

 

Stay safe everyone,

 

Neil