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Alex's Workbench - Southern Region & Other Projects


A.R.
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Hi All,

 

I stumbled across this wonderful painting of a Maunsell 4-8-0 loco by @Matthew Cousins (who has kindly let me use the picture here) a few months ago and have been tempted ever since to make a model of it based on a Lord Nelson. So, I have decided to go ahead and see what I can make. The body and tender will likely be a Bachmann Lord Nelson, with a scratchbuilt chassis and High Level gearbox/Mashima motor combination.

355853495_MathewCousinsMaunsell4-8-0.jpeg.a7779cd9bec4267ca95d907a2ead300f.jpeg

This is only my second loco build, the first having been my take on the never-built 2-8-2 BR Standard (based on the great model by @RedgateModels) which is just awaiting transfers/lining, and which followed the same basic build principles as mentioned above (scratchbuilt chassis etc.).

1919151162_Mikado2-8-2Photo1.jpeg.fe87dca25a772c6767bb86a18cc9d272.jpeg

I have started the chassis design for the 4-8-0 which will be printed and stuck to some brass strip for cutting and drilling.

2054777699_4-8-0ChassisFramesv1.JPG.8c265cec1fc3084b659bd1cd57cf44dd.JPG

I look forward to posting progress as its made and hearing your thoughts.

 

All the best,

Alex

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Hi All,

 

I now have most of the chassis components on order and have purchased a donor Lord Nelson loco, which should be delivered in due course. I will not need the motorised chassis and will be re-selling this on the well-known auction site (if anyone is interested, however, please feel free to drop message and we can arrange something).

 

With regards to drilling the axle holes, I have been wondering how best to align them; both in terms of making sure they are parallel to the bottom of the chassis, and that the spacing between them is accurate. I have indicated these on the diagram below:

2058277725_WheelAlignmentPlan.JPG.b364f2787edfbe2c61864fbff3734ebb.JPG

 

I will use a centre punch to guide the drill bit, but if anyone has any ideas or techniques to ensure the centre punch marks at exactly the required place, I would welcome your thoughts!

 

I am looking forward to getting on with the build!

 

Cheers, 

 

Alex

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Do what I did with the 2-8-2, clamp both frames to a block of wood, drill small pilot holes through both plates into the wood. Remove the plates from the wood and open the holes out to whatever you need for your axle bearings or horns etc. The holes in the wood are to be used to add pins to make a jig for your coupling rods - makes sure they all match ;)

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This looks a fascinating project.

 

Do you have a drawing with dimensions as a base, or is it done by best judgement?

 

I'm curious as to driving wheel diameter, recalling that British eight coupled came in at 5' 8'' on the mixed traffic GW 47xx, and 6' 2'' on the express P2's.

 

John.

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Hi, 

 

Thanks for the comments! 

 

@RedgateModels That's a good idea, I do now recall seeing you do that on the 2-8-2 build! I will give it a go and see what happens!

 

@John Tomlinson Unfortunately, there are no drawings that I am aware of so just going by best judgement on Matthew's great painting. I am using the Lord Nelson body as a guide and basing other measurements off that. A bit rough and ready, but it should do the job! With regards to the wheels, I overlaid some drawings and found that an 8F wheel sizing seems to work quite nicely. Therefore, I will be using 4ft8inch1/2 wheels (about 19mm in 1:76 I believe) and the same wheel spacing as an 8F, but potentially bringing the rearmost axle forward so that all axles are equally spaced (see blue lines) (as per the painting) as opposed to the 8F spacing that has the rear axle further apart (see orange lines).

 

63756455_4-8-0ChassisFramesv2.JPG.6f7a01da9d33402e99f1a2902ac0e7c2.JPG

 

With regards to the build itself, different parts are slowly arriving through the post and I am hoping to get started on the chassis frames at the weekend!

 

Cheers, 

 

Alex

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8 hours ago, RedgateModels said:

Do what I did with the 2-8-2, clamp both frames to a block of wood, drill small pilot holes through both plates into the wood. Remove the plates from the wood and open the holes out to whatever you need for your axle bearings or horns etc. The holes in the wood are to be used to add pins to make a jig for your coupling rods - makes sure they all match ;)

Better still: make the coupling rods first. Then use the first as a template for the other and the frames. Use a pilot 1mm drill and use the spare / broken drills to peg out your work as you proceed.

 

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Hi All, 

 

Thanks for the useful advice! I think I will have to try and get a pair of those odd-legged callipers, they look like just what I need! EDIT: Ordered!

 

Cheers, 

 

Alex 

Edited by A.R.
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On 05/01/2021 at 18:09, A.R. said:

Hi All,

 

I now have most of the chassis components on order and have purchased a donor Lord Nelson loco, which should be delivered in due course. I will not need the motorised chassis and will be re-selling this on the well-known auction site (if anyone is interested, however, please feel free to drop message and we can arrange something).

 

With regards to drilling the axle holes, I have been wondering how best to align them; both in terms of making sure they are parallel to the bottom of the chassis, and that the spacing between them is accurate. I have indicated these on the diagram below:

2058277725_WheelAlignmentPlan.JPG.b364f2787edfbe2c61864fbff3734ebb.JPG

 

I will use a centre punch to guide the drill bit, but if anyone has any ideas or techniques to ensure the centre punch marks at exactly the required place, I would welcome your thoughts!

 

I am looking forward to getting on with the build!

 

Cheers, 

 

Alex

Make the coupling rods first and use them as a jig to drill the frames. Incidentally if you are marking a paper pattern to drill holes don't use crosses - you can't feel the punch hitting the cross lines - use small circles instead. You can then see if the punch mark is in the centre of the circle.

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Hi, 

 

Thanks for the advice Michael, much appreciated. I had always assumed crosses made it easier when trying to centrepunch/drill but I will take your advice and try using small circles instead! 

 

I will try it on some scrap brass and let you know how it goes.

 

Cheers, 

 

Alex

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1 hour ago, Michael Edge said:

Make the coupling rods first and use them as a jig to drill the frames. Incidentally if you are marking a paper pattern to drill holes don't use crosses - you can't feel the punch hitting the cross lines - use small circles instead. You can then see if the punch mark is in the centre of the circle.

Good advice. A long time ago I remember a difference of opinion between the chief examiners of A level geography and physics as to how points on a graph should be marked. Just don't ask me which favoured the cross and which a sharp dot!

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Hi All, 

 

I am now the proud owner of an old Bachmann model of "Sir Francis Drake" which is to be the base model of the 4-8-0 (a name for which I need to come up with...although "Sir Francis Drake" would be a fitting tribute to the base model...ideas welcome!).

 

The body will be fully stripped down as it has a number of blemishes and glue marks etc, and details removed; some will be re-applied and others will be replaced. I can't help but think the chimney looks awfully big so will be seeking a brass replacement. Does anyone know a source of a replacement Lord Nelson chimney/other details?

 

I will also be removing the wheel arches as I note they are absent in the painting upon which the model is based. This should leave a long, flat, rather elegant footplate.

955726547_SirFrancisDrakeLoco.jpeg.c8193bb806d38543ba9d4e856ee26cbe.jpeg

 

I have already put the motorised chassis up for auction as it is obviously surplas to requirements for this project. 

 

Taking onboard the interesting discussion about how best to mark the holes for drilling, I have adjusted my drawings to have small "targets" at each drilling point and will see how this goes. The grey area represents the brass strip as purchased; you can see it should limit how much work needs to be done with the piercing saw! 

541408831_4-8-0ChassisFramesv3.JPG.9d1385d5654a8ea2258143481e9eb8a9.JPG

Still waiting for a number of parts to arrive in the post but should hopefully be able to start some work over the weekend. 

 

Cheers. 


Alex

 

 

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The Ian Allen book Maunsell Locomotives by Brian Haresnape has a small General Arrangement drawing at the top of page 15. It gives the driving wheel diameter as 5ft 1inch, with an equal spacing of 5ft 8inches. It also gives the spacing between the leading driving wheel and rear bogie wheel as 7ft  0inches. The bogie appears to be the same as the Lord Nelson.

 

Best Regards

 

Geoff

Edited by Geoff_E
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54 minutes ago, Geoff_E said:

The Ian Allen book Maunsell Locomotives by Brian Haresnape has a small General Arrangement drawing at the top of page 15. It gives the driving wheel diameter as 5ft 1inch, with an equal spacing of 5ft 8inches. It also gives the spacing between the leading driving wheel and rear bogie wheel as 7ft  0inches. The bogie appears to be the same as the Lord Nelson.

 

Best Regards

 

Geoff

I know 9F wheels were 5', not sure about the wheel spacing, so for those of us not keen on building a chassis from scratch a bodged and chopped 9F one might suffice for this project!

 

John.

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Hi All, 

 

Thanks @Geoff_E for the dimensions, much appreciated. I have applied these dimensions to the chassis plan and moved the wheel centres; I think it looks just about right! I will therefore use 20mm wheels (which is the nearest I can find to 5'1" in 4mm scale). It will mean I need to adjust the 8F coupling rods I was planning to use! The earlier advice about using these as a guide for the axle holes will be key!

EDIT: I have checked and the 8F wheel spacing is only 2inches shorter which equates to about 0.6mm~ so I will just adjust slightly to fit the 8F rods (see bottom drawing) - I don't think the difference is visible and it will save a lot of work, I will only need to adjust the rearmost coupling rod from the 8F set.

8041885_4-8-0ChassisFramesv4.JPG.9209b85bd578a76de6d18f7fd3fe3469.JPG

1720187155_4-8-0ChassisFramesv5.JPG.48b852a8285a29fe6f13994a41653489.JPG

Cheers, 

 

Alex

Edited by A.R.
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Hi All, 

 

Thanks @doilum, the rods actually have a very small hole (I would guess about 0.2-0.3mm) so I will need to widen them to fit the crankpins anyway. 

 

I recieved a range of items in the post today: brass for the frames, nuts and bolts, various etched parts, bearings etc. 

 

1665212233_Parts1.jpeg.cf844d223a999fe766106fd56bc3ddbe.jpeg

I have now removed all the details from the loco (handrails etc) and stored these safely to be reused. The loco body will now be stripped overnight and taken back to bare plastic (hopefully) ready for removing the wheel arches, blemishes and then priming. Sorry for the bad (and upsidedown!) photo.

 

521964835_LocoBodyShell1.jpeg.c17a73c7bb997e234c99bfaf1506b852.jpeg

 

I have also experimented with how to transfer the drawing onto the brass strip for cutting. I have found that I can print onto masking tape and it works a treat. I can then peel the tape off the paper and stick it straight onto the brass ready for centrepunching/drilling/cutting. I am pleased my measurements seem to have worked out and the marks on the drawing align perfectly with the 8f coupling rods.  

 

1309585017_MaskingOnFrames.jpeg.0181200e9f13de8dd756d24d33f90535.jpeg

 

More updates over the weekend as I cut/drill the frames etc and hopefully get a basic chassis pulled together. 

 

Cheers, 

 

Alex

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The beauty of using the rod as the template is that you only need to mark the first hole. Drill through into a piece of scrap wood and peg it with a spare/broken drill. All you do now is to line up the other end on the line previously scribed, drill and peg, the drill the intermediate holes.

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The pegging method can be used to keep the frames together as a pair rather than the old school method of soldering them solid. Once the first frame is drilled out it can be used as a full template for the second.  This especially easy if you have a vertical pillar drill. Working in 7mm, I like to have all the holes drilled and opened out including plunger pickups and brake hangers before committing serious time to any fancy profiling. Keeping the frame blanks slightly over length allows me to retain a pair of locating holes after the others have been opened out to their final size.

Perhaps I should have added earlier that my predilection for 1mm drills is that they are the smallest size available from non specialist suppliers. In my case my local car accessories shop retails a a pack of three at £1:99. Cheap enough to be disposable.

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Evening all, 

 

Thanks for the advice @doilum, it has been really helpful! 

 

I managed to get on with a few jobs today; removal of the wheel arches, the first coupling rod and preparing the frames.  

 

The wheels arches were a pain to remove but after a lot of filling and cutting I managed to remove them. This left a range of gaps/holes in the footplate which I then filled with plastic cut to shape, followed by filler. This was then sanded back and repeated until a relatively smooth finish was achieved. I have now given this a quick spray of primer to highlight the blemishes which I can fill and sand tomorrow, once the paint is fully dry. 

710694812_WheelArches1.jpeg.8daebffe4c8d41a6e09bb2afdcb619c3.jpeg

561264644_WheelArches2.jpeg.985e35ef84733ed9260186fde7d8befb.jpeg

2083554351_WheelArches3.jpeg.500e4893c1bf0faa820faa4683292486.jpeg

410598100_WheelArches4.jpeg.5db88e28030386ec044005b3bc376034.jpeg

Another job I managed to do was get the first coupling rod done, including shortening the necessary part to equate to an equal wheel spacing. This worked well using the pegging method described by a few people on this thread. 

 

1659520565_CouplingRod1.jpeg.288ea1fcb7789492d6a46b1e927ee8b5.jpeg1269843874_CouplingRod2.jpeg.0dfaee9e8653dc1940f9290a52522afe.jpeg

Finally, I cut the brass strip for the frames to length, transferred the drawing and secured the frames together with nuts and bolts so that its nice and secure for cutting the frames and drilling the axles. 

 

83324498_CouplingRod3.jpeg.007311c352fdc96b09ef7a6faf7d26ea.jpeg

That's all for now, more to follow tomorrow. 

 

Cheers, 

 

Alex

 

P.S. I may change this to a workbench thread as I now have the transfers for the BR 2-8-2 so will post updates of that too!

 

 

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  • A.R. changed the title to Maunsell 4-8-0 Build & Other Projects

Evening All, 

 

I have managed to do a little more on the Maunsell footplate today (still need a name for that loco), but mainly focussed on the BR 2-8-2 today and managed to get it finished. I applied all the transfers, picked out some details with a very fine brush and then gave the whole thing a coat of matt varnish. All that's left now is some real coal in the tender and some couplings! Let me know if you'd like to see any pictures of the chassis/build/details etc. 

 

2.jpeg.1476a1e099de37029e7b67ac5eaa5412.jpeg3.jpeg.c0a0a01bc0580823092b40f461a873a4.jpeg4.jpeg.3712745d1cbba515ca4c8ff169abe8af.jpeg

This was my first ever loco build and I am proud of how it has come out. A few lessons learnt which I can apply to the next project! I just want to add a big thank you to @RedgateModels whose original thread/blog both gave me the idea and provided lots of useful information!

 

Attention will now turn back to the Maunsell project: next up, cutting the chassis and finishing the footplate.

 

I look forward to hearing your thoughts!

 

Cheers. 

 

Alex

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As a beginner into chassis building, I would endorse the 'making frames fit rods' approach, and the excellent suggestion to 'pin' things through into a block of suitably hard wood. I found that particularly sensible to ensure rod etches were sweated precisely together too.

 

On the subject of centre punching in the 'right' place, I've done metal machining for quite a while and still find that it can be troublesome to pop right on the intersection. It's surprising/annoying how often one can end up punching very fractionally off centre!

 

Two things I use that help:

 

1. Automatic centre punch

I bought one which is small and lightly-sprung (adjustable as well). It is really useful for getting down to the workpiece and seeing exactly where the punch is going without having to wield a hammer at the same time.

 

2. Optical centre punch

See pic below. At the outset, let me say it's not ideal for small items, but I have used it on chassis sides. Probably obvious how it works but:

(a) Place brass holder over hole (my 'not ideal' comment is because the holder is ca. 3/4" dia)

(b) Insert perspex alignment plug and look down it (the shoulder gathers light so you can see the hole area 'illuminated')

(c) Align the etched cross-hair on plug with precise hole centre

(d) Hold brass holder, withdraw perspex plug, and insert hardened punch

(e) Tap and you're done.

 

Needless to add there's nothing like a pillar drill or milling machine to get all axle centres perfectly aligned - back to the principle of at least all three are in the same line, be it spot on or not.

 

It's what my chemistry teacher used to describe as 'exactly about' when referring to weighing out reagents - e.g. if you need 2g, it doesn't matter if its 1.99g or 2.00g or 2.01g provided you know what it is...

image.jpeg

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3 hours ago, 97xx said:

 

 

On the subject of centre punching in the 'right' place, I've done metal machining for quite a while and still find that it can be troublesome to pop right on the intersection. It's surprising/annoying how often one can end up punching very fractionally off centre!

 

 

That's precisely why I said to mark holes with a small circle, you can inspect it after using the punch to see that it was in the centre - before drilling. 

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18 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

That's precisely why I said to mark holes with a small circle, you can inspect it after using the punch to see that it was in the centre - before drilling. 

 

Agree fully re usefulness of the circles - like target shooting with diopter sights, where the eye has a natural ability to 'centre' circles within circles.

 

All I would add is that once punched, it's the Devil's own job to persuade the drill to another place...!

 

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