British coal will no longer be available

[Dagworth]

3 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Didn't the Swiss do that at one point, electrifying but didn't have enough electric locos so used it to heat the water? Not terribly efficient but did the job as a stopgap temporary measure.

http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/swisselec/swisselc.htm

[John Harris]

1 hour ago, 009 micro modeller said:

There’s also a couple of NG railways restoring wood-burning locos. I don’t know how viable this is on a larger scale though.

 

The Drax power station now burns wood pellets grown and processed for the purpose.

 

jch

[Fat Controller]

2 hours ago, Reorte said:

Isn't there a new mine supposed to be opening in Cumbria? IIRC it's to supply coal for the steel industry, which still needs it. I don't know when it'll come on line though (not right away), or whether the coal is suitable.

 

On the smoke front it's good to look at the Bittern 90 mph runs, where it needed to be fired well rather than to produce lots of smoke, can see very little smoke, just a bit every now and then that quickly clears (presumably when another shovel is thrown in).

French steam drivers used to have an expression for when a loco was steaming well 'Ça gaz'- in other words, a virtually clear exhaust. It's even entered general parlance in situations where something is working particularily well.

One driver told me of the 'delights' of driving oil-fired ('mazout') 1-4-1Rs on the heavily graded route from Lozanne to Roanne, especially through the 'Tunnel des Sauvages' ;soak rags/ neckerchief in water and wrap around face. Then lie as low as possible on the cab floor until you exit the tunnel'    

[Reorte]

22 minutes ago, Dagworth said:

http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/swisselec/swisselc.htm

Could still run on coal I see. And to think some people look at the bi-modes we've got today as a bit odd!

[Colin_McLeod]

16 hours ago, H2O said:

Sadly perhaps coal fired steam loco's are living on borrowed time, however as they say, foreign coal has been used before so not the end. 

 

Surely foreign steam engines ran throughout the world using their own foreign coal.

[Hibelroad]

20 minutes ago, John Harris said:

 

The Drax power station now burns wood pellets grown and processed for the purpose.

 

jch

It does, but some might take issue with the source of the wood as there have been investigative reports that claim some comes for destruction of wild woodland. Meanwhile there is a push to outlaw domestic wood burning stoves as apparently they are now evil, you just can’t win. 

[Reorte]

1 minute ago, Hibelroad said:

It does, but some might take issue with the source of the wood as there have been investigative reports that claim some comes for destruction of wild woodland. Meanwhile there is a push to outlaw domestic wood burning stoves as apparently they are now evil, you just can’t win. 

 

Every day that goes by there seems to be a bit of new bit of news that makes the not too distant future something I'd rather not live in. I know why, and maybe it's necessary, but that doesn't stop it leaving me permanently depressed.

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, 30801 said:

I assume you could do this and just cook them a bit less to get coal.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/oct/30/ecotricity-founder-to-grow-diamonds-made-entirely-from-the-sky

 

Probably too expensive. And uses vast amounts of electricity.

 

33 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Didn't the Swiss do that at one point, electrifying but didn't have enough electric locos so used it to heat the water? Not terribly efficient but did the job as a stopgap temporary measure.

 

They did. I’d be interested to know if anyone has modelled this in a large scale with working overhead line.

[Oldddudders]

3 hours ago, Kylestrome said:

I thought this was the most interesting snippet from the article, which would seem to contradict the rest of it.

 

Quote: 

"We'd been using British coal the past ten years but our supply ran out in mid-December," said Duncan Ballard, the railway's contracts manager.

"We are currently sourcing coal from abroad and are working with other railways to secure a sustainable and reasonably-priced source. 

"One of the unexpected benefits of this is that its CO2 emissions are significantly lower than those of our previous coal."

 

David

This is the difference between two preserved lines. The original whinge comes from a line which seems to be in perpetual turmoil, while your quote is from one where the glass is always at least half-full, I think. 

[corneliuslundie]

"Surely foreign steam engines ran throughout the world using their own foreign coal."

A great deal of Welsh steam coal was exported for railway use. There were French companies with an interest in the Welsh coal market for just that reason. One was Gueret who even bought at least one coal mine.

But yes there was plenty of suitable coal in some other countries.

Jonathan

[CKPR]

On 06/01/2021 at 09:57, Reorte said:

Isn't there a new mine supposed to be opening in Cumbria? IIRC it's to supply coal for the steel industry, which still needs it. I don't know when it'll come on line though (not right away), or whether the coal is suitable.

 

It probably won't be suitable as the coal from the Cumbrian coal field was always used in the iron and steel industry and coal for other industrial and domestic uses was generally brought in from the north east where more suitable 'steam coal' was available.

Edited July 15, 2021 by CKPR

[boxbrownie]

3 hours ago, jchinuk said:

Perhaps Tesla could be persuaded to build suitable wagons containing batteries and drive motors.  Hitch one to the steam trains to power the whole thing along?

 

jch 

Tender drive?  Oh no....don’t like that at all......

[pheaton]

The issue is largely ecomomic rather than, purely environmental, there will be a ban on house coal burning shortly, which its assumed will render the last splinters of the coal mining industry, as uneconomical to run, which leads to the fear it will be wound up, and as a result cant supply the heritage sector (which will be exempt from the coal ban). This is further complicated on certain engines of the copper capped variety which will become extremely expensive to run on preserved lines (where performance isnt an issue) because coal consumption will invariably increase to make up for the poorer quality of coal, and near impossible to run on the mainline because they wont be able to achieve the steaming rates afforded by the welsh coal. I have zero knowledge on how the standards and southern region stuff is affected by coal quality mind, so i would be interested to know if someone here does? So the heritage sector will be reliant on coal imports....but by the bulk carrier load, which means they need to resolve distribution issues between the railways and heritage sites that need it.

 

There was a planning application to open an opencast mine in newcastle which would have remedied the issues but the planning application was refused, on the grounds of the public perception of coal.

 

However how sustainable the industry is in this day age i dont know....how many kids leaving school these days wants to be a miner?

 

I did read a really good article about oil firing and why it wasnt taken up longer term, but i cant find it now.

 

There was a similar issue with red diesel a few years ago, after ULS diesel was mandated for road use, for a good while after Red diesel was still high sulphur, and the EU wanted it banned, the thought on the time was that this would accelerate wear in the fuel pumps of the large diesels, but AIUI this turned out to be unfounded as i have ran 26043 on ULS red diesel for years and after found no issues when.i had the fuel pumps rebuilt a few weeks back.

[009 micro modeller]

3 minutes ago, pheaton said:

The issue is largely ecomomic rather than, purely environmental, there will be a ban on house coal burning shortly, which its assumed will render the last splinters of the coal mining industry, as uneconomical to run, which leads to the fear it will be wound up, and as a result cant supply the heritage sector (which will be exempt from the coal ban). This is further complicated on certain engines of the copper capped variety which will become extremely expensive to run on preserved lines (where performance isnt an issue) because coal consumption will invariably increase to make up for the poorer quality of coal, and near impossible to run on the mainline because they wont be able to achieve the steaming rates afforded by the welsh coal. I have zero knowledge on how the standards and southern region stuff is affected by coal quality mind, so i would be interested to know if someone here does? So the heritage sector will be reliant on coal imports....but by the bulk carrier load, which means they need to resolve distribution issues between the railways and heritage sites that need it.

 

There was a planning application to open an opencast mine in newcastle which would have remedied the issues but the planning application was refused, on the grounds of the public perception of coal.

 

However how sustainable the industry is in this day age i dont know....how many kids leaving school these days wants to be a miner?

 

I did read a really good article about oil firing and why it wasnt taken up longer term, but i cant find it now.

 

There was a similar issue with red diesel a few years ago, after ULS diesel was mandated for road use, for a good while after Red diesel was still high sulphur, and the EU wanted it banned, the thought on the time was that this would accelerate wear in the fuel pumps of the large diesels, but AIUI this turned out to be unfounded as i have ran 26043 on ULS red diesel for years and after found no issues when.i had the fuel pumps rebuilt a few weeks back.

 

Didn’t the Ffestiniog switch to oil and then back to coal largely for economic reasons, suggesting that they and others could do so again? Although that depends on whether oil is any easier to get hold of.

 

Do the Forest of Dean drift mines produce any suitable coal, and is it in large enough quantities if so?

 

 I think the most sensible idea that’s been suggested is for the railways to form a bloc to buy shipments of coal in bulk, although I’m not sure what alternatives there are.

[eastwestdivide]

From the original BBC article, they're estimating 26,000 tonnes of coal per year to supply the UK heritage railways, or effectively one "Handysize" bulk carrier per year.

As "009" says above, a bit of cooperation required I reckon, and then supply isn't an insurmountable problem.

 

Edit: ship it in to Newcastle, and then we can have the Q&A:

- When does the train leave?

- When the booat comes in.

Edited January 6, 2021 by eastwestdivide
attempt at humour

[rocor]

17 hours ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi H2O,

 

The best way to create black smoke for films and photography is to throw in a plastic milk bottle of cylinder oil of two and then shut the fire hole doors with the damper wide open. How much brown clag do you want ?

 

Gibbo.

 

More black smoke. Computer generated imagery is the most likely approach that the film industry would now employ. At least they still film railway scenes for historical dramas on preservation society lines, thus providing them with a source of revenue to allow them to buy the imported coal.

[KeithMacdonald]

2 hours ago, 6990WitherslackHall said:

Will these have Synchronised smoke as well? 

 

That's quite possible, given the track record of some Tesla batteries bursting into flames.

[rocor]

1 hour ago, boxbrownie said:

Tender drive?  Oh no....don’t like that at all......

 

It does raise the question of what would be a step too far as far as "steam" preservation is concerned. Would a steam locomotive converted in the cause of zero emissions, to be hydrogen fired have trod into the realm of the unacceptable.

[Reorte]

9 minutes ago, rocor said:

 

It does raise the question of what would be a step too far as far as "steam" preservation is concerned. Would a steam locomotive converted in the cause of zero emissions, to be hydrogen fired have trod into the realm of the unacceptable.

 

All depends on who you ask. On one side any tinkering at all with it is unacceptable. On the other side if you could make one small lump of coal last all year (putting aside questions to do with some minor matters like the laws of thermodynamics) that would still be unacceptable to the other side. You'll never please everyone.

[Ken.W]

4 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

This is the difference between two preserved lines. The original whinge comes from a line which seems to be in perpetual turmoil, while your quote is from one where the glass is always at least half-full, I think. 

 

Indeed, always preferable to be 'glass half hull' where steam locos are concerned

[Colin_McLeod]

4 hours ago, eastwestdivide said:

: ship it in to Newcastle, and then we can have the Q&A:

 

 

Coals to Newcastle  

[Steamport Southport]

BBC fake news?

 

Also BBC, though probably not trying to follow a political agenda as it's come from local news.

 

Plans for the UK's first deep coal mine in 30 years can progress after the government decided not to intervene.

Cumbria County Council approved the £165m West Cumbria Mining plan in Whitehaven in October.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-55561852

 

 

 

Jason

Edited January 6, 2021 by Steamport Southport

[Jeremy Cumberland]

8 hours ago, Reorte said:

Isn't there a new mine supposed to be opening in Cumbria?

Yes, it's not very far from me, but it is very much for the steel industry (what's that? I hear people ask) and I doubt it will be made available to heritage railways, although it will probably be highly suitable, with its low ash and water content. It will be used to make coke for steelworks, and coke ovens appear to be even more particular about coal than steam locomotives.

7 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

There’s also a couple of NG railways restoring wood-burning locos. I don’t know how viable this is on a larger scale though.

Steam Yacht Gondola on Coniston Water burns compressed woodchip, and very successful it is too. Gondola has a huge boiler and firebox for the size of engine, and I would certainly not suggest this this would be suitable fuel for most heritage railways, although it might well be viable for locomotives that don't work very hard. There is, as you might imagine, very little heat in the firebed itself - the wood burns very quickly, disintegrating in the process, and if the engineer starts chatting to the passengers for too long (something else not possible on most heritiage railways) and forgets to throw in another pack of "logs" (wrapper and all), then the fire can die very quickly. Fortunately it can also be restored very quickly too.

 

For some of the smaller railways, by which I mean short standard gauge lines, not places like the Ravenglass and Eskdale - I really cannot imagine being able to get enough heat out of wood for the rate those little engines work - I wonder if compressed woodchip might be worth trialling. It would certainly be a good environmental credential to put on your publicity - a carbon neutral steam railway.

 

I don't think this is exactly what Gondola burns, but it is not far off. Gondola's "logs" come in packs of four about the same overall size and shape as a supermarket pack of nine loo rolls.

[Ken.W]

Although a life-long steam enthusiast, I was rather annoyed by the tone of the HRA statement.

 

The plan that was rejected by Newcastle C.C. wasn't for an actual coal mine, but a far more environmentally destructive and disruptive opencast site, bordering on residential areas at the outskirts of the city.

 

The same company, Banks Group, also had another, much larger, opencast proposal rejected last year that would have been bordering on a major local AONB

[009 micro modeller]

26 minutes ago, Jeremy C said:

Steam Yacht Gondola on Coniston Water burns compressed woodchip, and very successful it is too. Gondola has a huge boiler and firebox for the size of engine, and I would certainly not suggest this this would be suitable fuel for most heritage railways, although it might well be viable for locomotives that don't work very hard. There is, as you might imagine, very little heat in the firebed itself - the wood burns very quickly, disintegrating in the process, and if the engineer starts chatting to the passengers for too long (something else not possible on most heritiage railways) and forgets to throw in another pack of "logs" (wrapper and all), then the fire can die very quickly. Fortunately it can also be restored very quickly too.

 

There have been plenty of wood-burners in various parts of the world, I'm just not clear on what (how much) work would be needed to convert a coal-burning loco (compared to an oil conversion, for instance).