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Underframes LMS and LNER vans and wagons


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Hi

I have recently purchased some cambrian LMS and a LNER kits for my GWR P4 layout. I want to spring them but don't have any books that will tell what braking and underframe details that I will need. Is there a ready source of information available online that will give me the information that I need? I can't justify buying the books that would help for my 9  (maybe a few more later on) kits.

I see that Masokits and Rumney models have some types. Are there any others worthy of consideration?

 

Regards

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Generally speaking, if you buy the relevant underframe from a third party supplier, they will come with all the information you will need with regards to placement etc.

You may have to do a bit of internet searching to find out exactly which type of underpinnings you would need for a specific period in time, and if all else fails, ask on here.

 

Mike.

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If you are happy to use the sole bars from the kits (combined with Bill Bedford's axleguards to take care of the springing) then there are a couple of useful packs of brake gear etched available from Wizard Models which were formerly in the Mainly Trains range.

MT225 is LNER

MT234 is LMS

MT236 is GWR DC

 

They come with a useful drawing which shows where everything goes, almost worth getting a set for the drawing IMHO.

20210106_074343.jpg.57422d05d254614b4ba0db729c5af04e.jpg20210106_074416.jpg.b98b8376514c1692acb2a699f611ed47.jpg

 

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Sorry, realise that my post above answers the second part of your question, but not the first.

 

If you list which wagons it is you're looking at I'm sure there will be somebody on here who can point you in the direction of some info online (e.g. Paul Bartlett's wagon photos) or share some info from one of the relevant books (within what is allowed by copyright of course).

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If they're post-grouping-built steel-framed unfitted vehicles they'll have exactly the same RCH brakegear as contemporary GWR wagons you might be familiar with - though with pinned brake racks instead of ratchets if you're examining your models with a microscope.

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4 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

If they're post-grouping-built steel-framed unfitted vehicles they'll have exactly the same RCH brakegear as contemporary GWR wagons you might be familiar with - though with pinned brake racks instead of ratchets if you're examining your models with a microscope.

However note  that on fitted wagons the LNER used a design of brake gear that was different to the other railways. This had 3 V hangers, two on one side and one on the other side in line with one on the first side. These hangers were all 3  feet from the adjacent axle. The two inline hangers carried a cross shaft that had the vacuum brake cylinder and brake rigging connected to it plus on brake lever. The second V hanger on one side carried the other brake lever and links from this to the cross shaft were arranged to reverse the action of the lever to match the cross shaft. This brake gear had 8 brake shoes arranged to clasp the wheels.

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I wholeheartedly agree with the use of the MT etches.  They are designed by Iain Rice and the packs I had contained excellent instructions sketched in Rice's inimitable style.

 

I have also used Bill Bedford sprung W irons and brake gear.

 

Adding these gives a model a much better appearance.

 

John

 

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Thanks for all your replies. I have been off air during the week.

 

Here is the list of my Cambrian kits as Mark suggested:

 C57 LMS 5 Plank wagon D1667

 C58    "     "     "         "        D1666

 C80    "     12 t van             D1664

 C81 LNER 6 Plank wagon

 C84 Midland 10 ton Van D644

 C92 LMS 12 ton van D1676

 C102  "     "    "       "  D1663

 

As the LNER wagon was wooden underframe and 9' wb does this automatically make it unfitted?

 

Best wishes

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I've got a few of the kits mentioned in varying states of part built so happy to share how I'm approaching them.

 

Starting with the D1666 as there were a couple near the workbench.

 

 

20210110_092441.jpg

 

Bill Bedford axleguards,  cast 9' brakes from 51L, brake levers and guides are the Craig Welsh etch from S4 Soc stores, axleboxes and springs are MJT, buffers LMS.

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4 hours ago, bordercollie said:

 

 

As the LNER wagon was wooden underframe and 9' wb does this automatically make it unfitted?

 

Best wishes

 

No - some were built with the LNER 8 shoe vacuum brake arrangement as per the Mainly Trains etches mentioned above.

 

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D1666 and D1667

9' wheelbase, unfitted, double brakes

 

D1663, D1664 & D1676

9' wheelbase, Morton brakes, mostly unfitted but some were vac fitted or piped.

 

Can't find the D644 in my reference books, but I believe these were 10' wheelbase with double brakes (unfitted).

 

Hope that helps.

 

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MR D644 was the last design of Covered Goods Wagon (to use the MR terminology) built by the MR.

 

Steel underframe, 17' 6" over headstocks and 10' wheelbase as Mark says, unfitted with double brake - i.e. a brake lever and 2 brake blocks on each side of the vehicle.

 

Paul Barlett's Zenfolio site includes a shot of one in industral use:  https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsvan/e348f97a9

 

Ref: An Illustrated History of Midland Wagons, Volume One; Essery RJ, Oxford Publishing Co, Oxford, 1980, pp 143-145.

 

Regards,

TMc

 

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Hi

 

Thanks for the photos and explanation of detailing parts used.

 

Do I understand correctly that the Morton brakes for D1663/64/76 refered to by Mark are the 1 lever per side with brake shoes on one side only variety?

 

In regard to the D1666 and D1667, does "Double brakes" mean Morton brakes on both sides with each side worked by an independent lever or was it the type that have levers on both sides that could act on all wheels  using cross shaft? From the picture of the underneath it appears to be "independent". I have the same query for MR D644 explained by watfordtmc.

 

Best wishes

 

 

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This is where it gets a bit confusing as the terminology seems to be used differently by different people.

 

By "double brake" I was referring to 4 shoe independent push brakes with a lever either side. Each lever only applies the brakes on one side of the wagon.

 

 "Morton brake" (at least as far as the examples above are concerned) refers to 2 shoe push brakes with a lever either side connected by a cross shaft, one lever is fitted with a Morton clutch reversing the action of that lever so that either lever operates the brakes from either side.

 

This is the terminology used in copies of the LMS diagrams shown in Essery's LMS Wagons Vol 1

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10 hours ago, bordercollie said:

In regard to the D1666 and D1667, does "Double brakes" mean Morton brakes on both sides with each side worked by an independent lever or was it the type that have levers on both sides that could act on all wheels  using cross shaft? From the picture of the underneath it appears to be "independent". I have the same query for MR D644 explained by watfordtmc.

 

8 hours ago, Mark Forrest said:

 "Morton brake" (at least as far as the examples above are concerned) refers to 2 shoe push brakes with a lever either side connected by a cross shaft, one lever is fitted with a Morton clutch reversing the action of that lever so that either lever operates the brakes from either side.

 

This is the terminology used in copies of the LMS diagrams shown in Essery's LMS Wagons Vol 1

 

The specifically "Morton" feature is the cam arrangement which enables the lever on one side to force the cross-shaft and hence tumblers to rotate in an anti-clockwise direction despite the lever moving clockwise. The lever on the other side rotated the cross-shaft in the same sense at itself moved, via a simple clutch; therefore the brakes could be applied to the wheels on both sides of the wagon from either side using a brake lever at the right-hand end of the wagon, in accordance with the Board of Trade's 1911 regulation. The standard LMS arrangement is shown in this drawing for the D1666 open merchandise wagon, Midland Railway Study Centre Item 99-D2113. The elevation shows the non-Morton side facing, with the Morton lever and cam dotted in on the far side.

 

As far as I can make out, the Midland D644 covered goods wagons had this same arrangement.

 

Wagons with bottom doors couldn't have cross-shafts, so these usually had independent brakes (what Mark calls double brakes), i.e. a lever on each side operating a pair of brake blocks, so that the brake was only applied to the wheels on one side of the wagon. This was the usual arrangement for mineral wagons. It was also sometimes used as a cheap and cheerful way of bringing old wagons with brakes on one side only into line with the brake lever both sides requirement.

 

Edited by Compound2632
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This is getting a little bit more involved than I anticipated.

 

Terminology is a difficulty, but I have reread Mark Forrest’s posts and reconsidered my own and I’m comfortable that when Mark and I write about “Double brakes”, we mean two independent sets of brake gear – which are NOT connected to each other.

 

I’m not personally aware of any sprung underframe kit that covers 9’ (or 10’) wheelbase / 17’ 6” over headstocks, with ‘Double brakes’, to close off that aspect of your original post.

 

This also means that I differ from Compound 2632’s opinion about the brakes of MR D644, which I believe to be ‘Double brakes’ that are not connected to each other.  I do so with some trepidation as Compound 2632 is a far greater student of the Midland Railway than I.

 

Nevertheless, a quick look through Midland Wagons Vol. 1 (see Ref below) suggests, to me, that the Midland did not use Morton pattern brakes – with brake levers at the right hand end on each side - on its unfitted open and covered wagons.

I now wait to be re-educated!

 

Once brake levers (and any other brake gear parts) are connected to each other it becomes necessary to have a means of allowing the brake levers to operate independently and also, where the brake levers are at the right hand end of a wagon,to reverse the movement of one of the brake levers, and a common way of doing so is to use the ‘Morton’ cam and clutch arrangement.

Mark has drawn attention to the most common arrangement of Morton brakes in the 20th century but it is possible, as Compound 2632 notes, utilising the Morton cam and clutch to have sets of brake gear, not just brake levers, connected to each other via a cross-shaft so that you can have 4 brake block Morton brakes.

 

However, this is going off topic, and thankfully none of the kits you have bought require this added complication.

 

Ref: An Illustrated History of Midland Wagons, Volume One; Essery RJ, Oxford Publishing Co, Oxford, 1980.

 

Regards

TMc

 

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4 minutes ago, watfordtmc said:

Mark has drawn attention to the most common arrangement of Morton brakes in the 20th century but it is possible, as Compound 2632 notes, utilising the Morton cam and clutch to have sets of brake gear, not just brake levers, connected to each other via a cross-shaft so that you can have 4 brake block Morton brakes.

 

I thought that having blocks on all for wheels was the commonest arrangement with the Morton brake. However, I do recall having it pointed out to me not so long ago that many LMS wagons had blocks on one side only, on the side with the Morton cam. 

 

9 minutes ago, watfordtmc said:

Terminology is a difficulty, but I have reread Mark Forrest’s posts and reconsidered my own and I’m comfortable that when Mark and I write about “Double brakes”, we mean two independent sets of brake gear – which are NOT connected to each other.

 

I've called them independent brakes but just to add to the terminological melting pot, I note that on that D1666 drawing there is a scrap view showing the arrangement with double V-hanger if there is no cross-shaft, with the note "Morton Brake is shown but separate brake on each side may be fitted if desired."

 

12 minutes ago, watfordtmc said:

This also means that I differ from Compound 2632’s opinion about the brakes of MR D644, which I believe to be ‘Double brakes’ that are not connected to each other.  

 

I think you are right and what I took to be the cross-shaft in Midland Wagons plates 207 and 208 is in fact the push-rod on the other side. It's also clear from the orientation of that push-rod that these are independent brakes. 

 

This all makes me glad to be modelling c. 1902 when most wagons had brakes and levers on one side only!

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I must confess that I edited my post after checking the photos in LMS Wagons Vol 1.  I'd initially assumed the Morton braked wagons would have 4 block brakes but photos confirmed them to be of the 2 block type (with the brakes on the same side of the wagon as the clutch).

 

(Also noting that I made the mistake of saying shoe rather than block adding to the confusion around terminology!).

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1 minute ago, Mark Forrest said:

I must confess that I edited my post after checking the photos in LMS Wagons Vol 1.  I'd initially assumed the Morton braked wagons would have 4 block brakes but photos confirmed them to be of the 2 block type (with the brakes on the same side of the wagon as the clutch).

 

(Also noting that I made the mistake of saying shoe rather than block adding to the confusion around terminology!).

On the GWR, they quite often used 2 blocks on unfitted and 4 blocks on vacuum fitted wagons. This practice was not 100% adhered to but generally applied to both Morton braked and earlier DC braked wagons.

 

Did this apply to other companies?

 

Will

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2 hours ago, WillCav said:

On the GWR, they quite often used 2 blocks on unfitted and 4 blocks on vacuum fitted wagons. This practice was not 100% adhered to but generally applied to both Morton braked and earlier DC braked wagons.

 

Did this apply to other companies?

 

Will

 

Pre grouping - when fitted wagons were something of a rarity - passenger-style clasp brakes were the norm, so eight blocks (or shoes) per wagon. This remained the case for new-build LMS fitted wagons, I think up to the end of the 1930s. the automatic brake could exert a greater force than a hand-applied brake. Clasp brakes have the advantage that the brake does not apply any significant longitudinal force to the axle, and hence to the bearing, axlebox, and axleguard. When the ordinary type of wagon brake was adapted for vacuum, the brakes would tend to try to spread the wheelbase - hence the use of axleguard tie-rods on later fitted wagons. It would also be necessary to have brakes on both sides of the wagon, to stop the axles being forced out of parallel - i.e. spreading by the same amount on both sides.

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

passenger-style clasp brakes were the norm, so eight blocks (or shoes) per wagon. This remained the case for new-build LMS fitted wagons, I think up to the end of the 1930s. the automatic brake could exert a greater force than a hand-applied brake

For about the first decade or so of its existence, the LMS favoured 4-shoe brakegear with a cross-shaft and Morton reversing cam for most of its newbuild fitted stock, switching to clasp brakes about the same time as it moved from 9' to 10' wb for most of its newbuild ordinary merchandise wagons.

 

For the benefit of the OP, here is a summary of the types of brake used on the wagons listed.

 

Unfitted

 

C57 LMS 5 Plank wagon D1667     Independent either side lever double block (as per Mark Forrest's model upthread)

C58    "     "     "         "     D1666       As above

C80    "     12 t van           D1664      2-shoes on same side as Morton reversing cam

C81 LNER 6 Plank wagon                As above       

C84 Midland 10 ton Van D664       Independent either side lever double block

C92 LMS 12 ton van D1676            2-shoes on same side as Morton reversing cam

C102  "     "    "       "  D1663             As above

 

 

Fitted

 

C57 LMS 5 Plank wagon D1667     N/A

C58    "     "     "         "     D1666        N/A

C80    "     12 t van           D1664      4-shoe with Morton reversing cam          

C81 LNER 6 Plank wagon                Clasp brakes  (3 V-hangers)

C84 Midland 10 ton Van D664        N/A

C92 LMS 12 ton van D1676             4-shoe with Morton reversing cam

C102  "     "    "       "  D1663              4-shoe with Morton reversing cam

 

Notes:-

 

There were also through-piped variants of the three LMS van diagrams, brake gear as for unfitted.

 

Both Cambrian and Essery give dia 664 for the MR van.

 

Sources: the usual suspects, ie Essery's works on MR and LMS  wagons, including the one written with K R Morgan, and Peter Tatlow's works on the LNER.

 

D

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi

 

I have just got around to re-reading the posts and about to place some orders. Doesn't look like I can get the Bill Bedford itema as Eilleen's Emporium is no longer taking Intl. orders. Are the masokits 9' for the Morton brakes worth considering? It is almost impossible to communicate with him from Australia. I would have to send a cheque and hope he is well and can respond.

In the end I have the impression that clasp brakes are not appropriate for 9'wb LMS wagons or unfitted LNER wagon, as I propose to build kits as unfitted where possible, and thus were part of they were part of "common user" arrangement.

Therefore, if my understanding is correct I would need MT223/224. It looks to me that from this fret I could make morton 2 levers with 2 brakes on cam side and the independent two sided brakes use the two non-cam levers off the fret. It means that there is going a little bit of wastage were I can not use all the Cam sided levers.

Have I got the right end of the stick?

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Will confess I hadn’t appreciated the changes to VAT regulations made by HMRC under the guise of Brexit were impacting out of Europe transactions as well as those within Europe…

 

As Mark says, Wizard Models would be a good place to try first.  Their terms and conditions note that you are responsible for “...responsible for paying any customs duty or local sales tax upon arrival in your country. Your refusal to pay these charges (the amount of which we cannot inform you of in advance) and the goods subsequently being returned to us will not entitle you to a refund” so they’re obviously aware of the challenges of international trade. 

 

However, they do take cards, you can shop online and there’s an email address as well.  All in all, probably a better first place to try before you get involved in Masokits given your circumstances.

 

Wizard Models should be here:  https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/

 

And the T&C’s should be here:  https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/tc/

 

I think that Bill Bedford item: 'BWF002/4 RCH Wagon Sprung W-irons, 1923 pattern for Oil Axleboxes' would be suitable for springing all the kits you reference, whilst item: 'CES900/4 RCH 9’ Wheelbase Wagon Brake Gear', will provide the brake parts for all the kits except C84 Midland 10 ton Van D664.  Unfortunately, the 10’ Wheelbase brake gear that would suit this kit is shown as out of stock.

 

My only concern in respect of the brake parts, apart from the fiddly factor, is that I think for anything fitted with the ‘Independent either side lever double block’ as listed in Darryl Tooley’s post above would need you to use two of the etches on the fret.

 

Wizard Models do not list a MT224, but the Mainly Trains item: 'MT223 Etched Wagon Brake Gear – 9’ Wheelbase Morton RCH' would suit all your kits, except C84, with the proviso that you’ve already noted.  MT230 could well be useful as well.

 

 

I have no exposure to Masokits other than what I have read, most notably in Geoff Kent (Ref 1) and (the late) John Hayes (Ref 2).  In his comments about the brake gear John Hayes opens by noting “Modellers who enjoy a challenge…”.  So you have been warned!  To be fair the Masokits list does say the items are “… a fiddle to make…”.

I see that you’re signed up to the Scalefour Forum, so you may well find a better description of the parts there.

 

If you were looking to use the Masokits springing units, then my reading of the Masokits list suggests that item: ‘6.01 9’ 0” Wheelbase with Morton Brakes One Side Only’, would suit kits C81, C84, C92, C102.  You would need items: ‘6.01 and 6.02 9’ 0” Additional Morton Brake Parts’ for kits C57 and C58, and item: ‘6.03 10’ 0” Morton Unfitted/Fitted Brakes’ for kit C80.

 

If you were just looking to use the brake gear parts then item ‘1.03 Morton Lever for 9’ 0” wheelbase’ would suit kits C81, C84, C92, C102.  You would need items: ‘1.03 and 3.02 Additional 9’ 0” wheelbase parts’ for C57 and C58, and item: ‘2.04 10’ 0” Morton Lever with Brakes Both Sides for 10’ 0” wheelbase’ for kit C80.

 

All rather complicated.

 

Not sure if the above really helps, but hopefully you can make something of it.

 

References:

1.    The 4mm Wagon Part 3: Conflats & Containers, Wagons for long loads and steel, Brake Vans and Finishing touches, Kent G, Wild Swan (Didcot) 2004.

2.    The 4mm Coal Wagon, A step-by-step Guide, Hayes J, Wild Swan (Didcot) 1999.

 

 

Regards

TMc

29/01/2021

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