Where does our interest lie in the 2021 Hornby Range?

The Stationmaster · January 6, 2021

While it is clearly not an indication of the wider market the sort of attention to each thread dedicated to various parts of the 2021 Hornby rangem,ight illustrate of where interests lie among us. Obviously not an attempt at market research because the reason for interest in a particular announcement can be varied and not necessarily wholly positive. So this is how it looks just ove 24 hours after the announcement went live.

Top of the poll are the new generic 4 and 6 wheeled coaches - with some very mixed reactions which no doubt has helped boost the numbers to 280 posts and 19.8k views. The next nearest for views is diesel and electric locos with 7.2k views and, by a fairly slim margin, at 67 it also has the second highest number of posts. But the overall 2021 steam range isn't far behind with 63 posts and 6.2k views.

It might not be illustrative of Hornby's love of the subject but 'big steam' doesn't seem to float the boat of many RMweb members. At 61 posts the 9F is equal fourth with the new Maunsell coaches in number of posts and in a clear fourth place with 4.6k views. But the new A1/A3 is well down the scale with only 23 posts and 2.1k views while the P2 is even worse at 18 posts and 2.0k views - there are only three items below it in terms of number of posts and only two below it in terms of number of views (and one could perhaps hardly expect the trainsets and new BCK to have done much better on RMweb than their lowly placing. Also among the 'big steam' the new Hornby Dublo 2 rail doesn't score too well either with 36 posts (eighth from bottom) but a fairly respectable 2.8k of views which at least puts it ahead of HST Mk3 coaches with only 26 posts and 2.7k views and Playtrain which has 2.6k views but a far better 62 posts.

I won't bother with a full league table this early in the game but it's already fairly clear where RMweb member interests lie and LNER 'big steam' in particular hasn't really stirred much interest so far. But HST/Mk3 coaches aren't particularly well placed either lagging quite a way behind the interest in Mk4s which have 57 posts and 3.5k views. Will these numbers reflect in purchases - almost certainly not because the market is far wider than RMweb so I doubt they'll worry anyone at Hornby.

Edited January 7, 2021 by The Stationmaster
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Wheatley · January 6, 2021

2 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Top of the poll are the new generic 4 and 5 wheeled coaches - with some very mixed reactions which no doubt has helped boost the numbers to 280 posts and 19.8k views.

Like you suggest, a significant proportion of those are people either questioning whether 'generic' is a good or a bad thing, or taking umbrage at nasty mean Hornby's underhand tactics in trying to stop poor little Hattons' bid for total market domination. I suspect the actual level of interest in actually buying any might be a bit lower, but a good scrap always attracts a crowd.

TravisM · January 6, 2021

I constantly surprised why Hornby really don’t seem to be interested in doing multiple units, both diesel and electric though I was glad to see the APT from last year’s announcements. I feel that had they announced a Class 120 in this year’s announcements, the orders would have come flooding in.

Edited January 6, 2021 by jools1959
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The Johnster · January 6, 2021

Some of the new releases are clearly aimed at gleaning the collector dollar, not that there's owt wrong with that, but they are largely irrelevenat to most of 'us'.. There seems absolutely no point whatever to the Hornby Dublo 2-rail stuff otherwise; surely, from a modeller's perspective, a plastic bodied loco is cheaper and has no disadvantages over othe die cast if it is properly ballasted. Die casting is fine when it serves a useful purpose, for example in assisting the ballasting of a small loco, or when it is the rational option from a production engineering point of view, but there is a lesson in the original Hornby Dublo's demise about failing to control production costs and to adapt to the changing market which I am sure I do not have to bring to Hornby's attention.

The generic 4 or 6 wheelers do not, I contend, gazump Hattons' offerings, as the 'look' of these coaches is radically different. I am sort of interested in these to replace my Raito 4 -wheelers for the miner's; I have reduced my minimum radius following the reversion to tension lock couplers as my failing eyesight and hand-eye coordination can no longer cope with scale couplings. This has allowed sharper radii in the fy throat and the Ratio coaches don't like it at all! The Hatton's coaches look completely wrong for this purpose, while the new Hornby's might pass muster as layout coaches.

So, the Hornby 4 wheelers might be a solution, though I think I'd buy the BR(E) versions rather than paint over that lovely GW fully lined livery. It would be nice to at least give a nod of recognition to the Glyncorrwg-North Rhondda trains of the early 50s. They are not prohibitively expensive, though the brake 3rds are a bit off; perhaps a hybrid with a Ratio/Parkside body on a Hornby chassis will do the job, or a bit of Hornby cut'n'shutting with the ducket. Photos of the Glyncorrwg set in John Hodges Tondu Valleys book, pages 218-20, 225, and 235, have a BT/T/BT/T formation, with the trailing third being of a different design to the rest of the train, slightly shorter though both all thirds are 5 compartments, and seems to have lost it's roof oil lamp protrusions, probably being open to the air holes in the roof; these trains were pretty basic in the 50s.

One would hope that they will see the final demise of the 3-compartment 'S&DJ' toys.

centraltrains · January 6, 2021

None of the MUs/locos were of interest to me this year which is a bit of a relief.

What looks really fascinating to me is the R7338 Maglight, looks like they can easily be modified to take different lighting strips. Much cheaper than the Train Tech solution and won't wobble on when the trains aren't in use so seems very win-win. It looks like reef switches are quite common, but the electronics to make them hold toggle statusu a bit more complex, so I will be very keen to get my hands on some.

Oldddudders · January 6, 2021

I think the categories relate to age-profile. I expect the majority of Big Steam folk to be older, and they assess the worth of the model and make whatever mental note may be needed, with in some cases budgetary provision. D&E modellers may tend to be younger, so there is lots of chat about this and that joy and those disappointments. Social media refers.

The 4/6 wheelers have an instant Marmite theme - being either a monstrous affront to Hattons or another Good Thing for the pre-Grouping eras. And the livery renditions are good for a few pages of debate.

The two Southern vehicle threads are full of intrigue about what and where and when. The ghastly voiceover on the video for the catering vehicles is a disgrace. The script should have been written and rehearsed before the camera started rolling. If the researchers were as slapdash as this then Hornby would have sunk without trace ages ago - why not present the product in a professional fashion, too? I am a customer for some of these, so watched the vid. I have not watched others, and hope they were better.

Mallard60022 · January 6, 2021

Before we old #### disappear then it would be good if Hornby concentrated on rolling stock; Gresleys, Staniers and earlier Period 2. Then some more WR stuff like Clearstory Stock and more SR stock.

Loco's are great and bring in more dosh but...........I know someone that would buy decent Gresleys by the dozens. He and his ER buddies would keep Hornby in the black for ages.

Also Bog Carts and EMUs.... for the slightly younger gang. Even I would buy some of those.

I also think that the smaller Industrials have a future, both Seam and Diesel/Electric, as well as Narrow Gauge Industrial; really suitable for those lovely and affordable 'smaller layouts'.

Then start to concentrate on current stuff as that is the only future for large sales IMO.

Phil

thefin · January 6, 2021

5 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

I think the categories relate to age-profile. I expect the majority of Big Steam folk to be older, and they assess the worth of the model and make whatever mental note may be needed, with in some cases budgetary provision. D&E modellers may tend to be younger, so there is lots of chat about this and that joy and those disappointments. Social media refers.

The 4/6 wheelers have an instant Marmite theme - being either a monstrous affront to Hattons or another Good Thing for the pre-Grouping eras. And the livery renditions are good for a few pages of debate.

The two Southern vehicle threads are full of intrigue about what and where and when. The ghastly voiceover on the video for the catering vehicles is a disgrace. The script should have been written and rehearsed before the camera started rolling. If the researchers were as slapdash as this then Hornby would have sunk without trace ages ago - why not present the product in a professional fashion, too? I am a customer for some of these, so watched the vid. I have not watched others, and hope they were better.

The others videos are pretty p*** poor TBH. If I had been responsible for delivering a presentation on products that was unscripted, unpolished, uninformative, ill informed, and frankly amateur, full of dithering interruptions of the non word type, like the ones that have been provided from/on behalf of Hornby, then I would likely be looking for new employment. Utter shocker.

spamcan61 · January 6, 2021

17 minutes ago, thefin said:

The others videos are pretty p*** poor TBH. If I had been responsible for delivering a presentation on products that was unscripted, unpolished, uninformative, ill informed, and frankly amateur, full of dithering interruptions of the non word type, like the ones that have been provided from/on behalf of Hornby, then I would likely be looking for new employment. Utter shocker.

Not just me then. I've only watched part way through a couple as I too found them very slapdash, as if they had to be done in one take by somebody who hadn't read the script (assuming there was one) .Can't believe the market leader would put out very amateur looking content like that.

centraltrains · January 6, 2021

20 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Not just me then. I've only watched part way through a couple as I too found them very slapdash, as if they had to be done in one take by somebody who hadn't read the script (assuming there was one) .Can't believe the market leader would put out very amateur looking content like that.

Which videos are you referring to?

For the videos posted here, I was under the impression they were more business/product managers talks in a press release type way rather than a glossy showcase.

The video on their YouTube channel seemed to be edited well, even if one of them seemed to talk a bit fast/nervously?

Phil Parker · January 6, 2021

28 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Not just me then. I've only watched part way through a couple as I too found them very slapdash, as if they had to be done in one take by somebody who hadn't read the script (assuming there was one) .Can't believe the market leader would put out very amateur looking content like that.

They didn't "put them out" in that way. This is a recording of the presentation given to the press in an informal manner with questions along the way. Think Zoom meeting not conference presentation.

Andy edited the entire thing down as we thought it would be interesting to RMwebbers and those who took part agreed we could use them in this way.

If all they do is attract abuse then we'll take them down and not repeat the exercise in the future.

AY Mod · January 6, 2021

58 minutes ago, thefin said:

The others videos are pretty p*** poor TBH. If I had been responsible for delivering a presentation on products that was unscripted, unpolished, uninformative, ill informed, and frankly amateur, full of dithering interruptions of the non word type, like the ones that have been provided from/on behalf of Hornby, then I would likely be looking for new employment. Utter shocker.

If you had the decency to ask a question before piling in with your vitriol you would have been given a response. Phil has responded.

Hornby also had a YouTube premiere video released at 10.00 yesterday which included a showroom walkaround if you would prefer that. As that wasn't available at the time our information was being put together I worked to give you something rather than nothing.

Some magazines had different approaches, some haven't provided any online information and frankly virtually no other non-trade websites in the hobby have provided anything.

You've succeeded in making yourself look quite unpleasant.

robmcg · January 6, 2021

I saw a video from Hornby yesterday with various presenters male, female , but mostly Simon talking in relaxed un-rehearsed fashion, as were the others, about what is an extensive new range.

All very good and hardly a stutter or stammer, and they knew their products and the prototypes.

Excellent. I think it was about 30 mins but I skipped some of it. At least it didn't have professionally-added mood music!

Clearwater · January 6, 2021

To @The Stationmaster's point, I think there may well be a difference between what's interesting for people here and what actually sells. I'd be amazed if year in / year out that a variant of the Flying Scotsman wasn't one of their biggest selling items. However, I've no more than a cursory interest in the new A1/A3s - I own two or three already which is more than enough for me. The differences on the new ones probably wont send me hurrying to buy them. However, I wonder if maybe there were tooling/production issues given the panning that bent running frames etc were getting on some of the more recent A1/A3 releases that may suggest that either the tools weren't as compatible with the machines used (perhaps a move of factory?), something else has changed that's made the assembly process not work as well or simply the tools were old and worn any of which could necessitate a new tooling. If I were marketing Hornby's range, I'd look to turn these points to make a positive story about a new tooling and how great it is and what new features there are - who wouldn't in their shoes?

I'm sure a similar argument applies to the 9F as to the A1/A3. On the retro style Hornby Dublo, several people had speculated they would do more and whilst its dangerous to analyse anecdotes, it looks like the Duchess of Montrose sold well. I suspect these will sell and without much of a discount to the collector market. There seem to be a lot of Mark 3 coach livery variants - the LSL Blue Pullman will sell fast together with its coaches. Smart move to sell separately and allow people to assemble. Have they made more power cars than coaches? I would think so. But perhaps to drive overall economics, its useful to have a larger run of mark 3 coaches but paint / print them (whatever the process is) is in smaller batches. eg run 10,000 units but in five liveries to get the overall unit cost down.

David

TheSignalEngineer · January 6, 2021

20 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Before we old #### disappear then it would be good if Hornby concentrated on rolling stock; Gresleys, Staniers and earlier Period 2.

A personal Hobby Horse of mine. I ended up making cut'n'shut jobs of two Period ! coaches not done in the Bachmann range and a rake of LMS open stock of assorted Period 1,2 and 3 designs. The latter are a notable omission to my mind as the LMS built a vast number of Open coaches following on from the Midland design through to WW2. Many of them were still in service up to the early 1960s. Hopefully a couple of the gaps in the Stanier range can be filled by backdating the Coronation Scot set to the vehicles they were derived from. I know that some of the EPs e.g. the D.1904 TO were closer to the original build rather than the Coronation Scot version. The 50' Kitchen car will allow the production of a dining three-set with an FO and TO worked up from the other vehicles .

The Gresley corridor stock has many well described foibles and again is a very restricted range when you look at the types built over the years.

Regarding the Maunsell Dining stock I have looked at this for a while and came to the conclusion that there were so many variations and rebuilds over the year that it is a veritable minefield. Many of them spent more time as the various Buffet Car rebuilds than they did in their original form the purpose of which effectively finished in September 1939 and never recovered.

There are a number of sadly-ignored items of goods stock, the LMS 12 ton vans being a prime example. Add to this the wrong length LMS and BR cattle wagons in the Bachmann range and a lack of proper GWR ones, current 5-plank opens being rather generic, better bogie bolsters of say 1930s design and some decent 14T tank wagons and there are still plenty of things to go at without novelty items.

AY Mod · January 6, 2021

1 hour ago, spamcan61 said:

as if they had to be done in one take by somebody who hadn't read the script

There wasn't a script, they're clips from a Microsoft Teams briefing which enable our readers to get the very same information we received. I thought it would make readers feel more included and so people may know what a briefing looks like. Normally we're there in person and then construct the information afterwards, this year gave a different opportunity.

TheSignalEngineer · January 6, 2021

1 minute ago, AY Mod said:

There wasn't a script, they're clips from a Microsoft Teams briefing which provide our readers to get the very same information we received.

I've only watched a couple so far and took them to be exactly what you have described. I have done many presentations to potential clients varying from the hopefully slick bells and whistles stage show and exhibition stands to the informal chat type in a lounge setting. Where did we get the most business? I would say probably the informal style where you had an agenda rather than a strict script to work to and could feed off the audience.

We live in strange times where we are all having to adjust. A large part of my modelling inspiration besides my experiences on the 12 inches to the foot railway came from interaction with layout operators, demonstrators and small suppliers. This feed has been cut off and I am very grateful to the folk running this forum which, incidentally, AY directed me to when he was exhibiting at Manchester in the CO-OP days.

spamcan61 · January 6, 2021

32 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

There wasn't a script, they're clips from a Microsoft Teams briefing which provide our readers to get the very same information we received. I thought it would make readers feel more included and so people may know what a briefing looks like. Normally we're there in person and then construct the information afterwards, this year gave a different opportunity.

Fair enough, apologies for being unduly harsh in that case.

Edited January 6, 2021 by spamcan61

Legend · January 6, 2021

I thought the coverage was pretty good . As usual RMWeb was my main source of information, the Hornby website falling down failing under load . While the refresh rate here was patchy , by following instructions and not clicking frantically the pages did refresh , and it got better through the day, so well done RMWeb team .

I suppose this does in a way show how popular the Hornby range introduction was . In addition to the official Hornby site , Jenny Kirk , Sams Trains , the Hornby Mag all had good coverage on it . Jenny Kirk in particular portrays the excitement of the occasion . And yes, I have watched them all . Well it’s a welcome relief from Covid , soaps and hospital dramas on the telly last night! So I spent a pleasant few hours immersed in all things Hornby.

I’m wondering if I imagined it but I was sure I saw a West Highland Island Platform station at one stage , can’t remember where now ! Maybe not, but I do note there is a Scottish Croft in this years Scaledale , so maybe it’s lurking somewhere .

There was of course something of interest in there. For me the A4 nosed P2 is of interest, the 153 in ScotRail, Mk4 coaches and possibly even the generic coaches . So lots of new stuff that created interest . I did wonder after last years razzmatazz if it would be hard to follow , and I think maybe there’s not much that’s generated the hype of last year . The Hornby Dublo idea was last year, this is a follow up, Rocket was the big thing last year, again a follow up this year . APT was big last year, no real equivalent this year . So generally I’d say the response is maybe a bit more muted than previously.

Now that the dust has settled , what is revealed is classic Kohler . Big Steam engines , the small black 0-6-0 has gone out of fashion , virtually nothing for BR Blue which remains his forgotten period .The only thing that was lacking was a Gold Plated limited edition this year! And I’m sorry but the 4 and 6 wheel coaches is pure plagiarism . We know from Paul Isles development started after the Hattons announcement and the essence of the range looks remarkably similar . So not an original idea . Leaves a bit of a bad taste .

Let’s hope it works for Hornby . I know they’ve gone into the black, which is great, but I’m wondering given the additional market caused by last years enforced lockdown if they shouldn’t be doing better.

One final point . I hope they get distribution sorted out . It’s not clear where fault lies but last year people placed lots of pre orders based on the hype of the annual range introduction and were disappointed when they didn’t get their Rocket sets, Duchess of Atholls etc that they thought they had ordered and had confirmed . This wasn’t just through one retailer so would appear to be more of a central problem .

Edited January 6, 2021 by Legend

davidw · January 6, 2021

The range of announcements for 2021 is clearly very large, and Hornby need to be congratulated on continuing the momentum, in very tough trading conditions. But in answer to the question. I find myself a little indifferent.

I model a fairly specific time and place.

I've plenty of 9fs, and A3s (Why another BR green Flying Scotsman - there were 78 others?). I'm glad to see another A2/2 due December.

Certainly the P2 will have a wow factor though it disappeared way before my period. The DE releases will appeal to many.

I've no doubt Hornby will produce stunning models.

The Mk1 BCK, well there's duplication again... another catering vehicle RK or RKB could have peaked more interest. Generic coaches? Hmm to go head to head with Hattons.... Not impressed.

Personally I was staggered by the 2020 releases. I'm eagerly awaiting for many to arrive.

The difference this year is that the sense of originality (i.e. unique items not produced before) is absent; this is my perspective.

Edited January 6, 2021 by davidw

No Decorum · January 7, 2021

I saw my son-in-law this evening. I decided to torture him on the subject of Hornby’s new announcements. Pictures taken of my existing models and other sources were Bluetoothed to my phone to aid in the assault. What did I focus on? The P2s. What about Hornby Dublo? No. I like the idea but I’m not particularly impressed by the Merchant Navies or Duchess. I like diesels and electrics but Hornby needs to sort out its provision for speakers and decoders before I get very excited. 9F? The trouble with re-tools is that if I have decent 9Fs, a re-tool* isn’t going to compete with Earl Marischal or Lord President. Still, the P2s are quite far away. Thomo’s wonders are due quite soon, aren’t they? Perhaps the point I’m trying to make is that there isn’t much to argue about in the P2s; I hope just to gawp in awe. There was plenty to argue about in Cock o’ the North, just as there is in the generic coaches, as the OP says.

* Mechanical stoker, though? Hm, interesting.

scottrains29 · January 7, 2021

2 hours ago, Legend said:

I’m wondering if I imagined it but I was sure I saw a West Highland Island Platform station at one stage , can’t remember where now ! Maybe not, but I do note there is a Scottish Croft in this years Scaledale , so maybe it’s lurking somewhere .

You didn't imagine it. It's R7304 Platform Island. Though I don't know how much of Rannoch station you'll actually get for £4.49 RRP.

adb968008 · January 7, 2021

Mixed one for me...

I think they are repeating the same mistakes as the K1 with too many too soon..

We havent even got the first A2/W1 and 2MT yet, but now weve got 6 variants already.

Additionally littered with 82! fake coaches, I think the lighted ones will sell, the others may take longer, but they are going to be everywhere... it just feels like even more could follow in the summer too.

For all my moaning of lack of modern image, they have actually done quite well, definitely made more with less capital outlay here...

Loving the Scotrail 153.. will accompany Realtracks 156

Midland Pullman (just make sure they make enough TGS’s).

Ruston 88

Class 87’s.

Mk3 Sleepers a win

FGW HST looks like a win for me.

LNE Mk4 set, will now tempt me to buy the class 91’s.

47593 and Rail Charter coaches looks good too.

steam..

definite on Dublo for me... I like my fathers old Dublo, a chance to own the same in modern detail is too good to miss... i’m in, all 3.

I’m already in for W1’s, 2MT, Blue MN, Coronation coaches..but they are all from last year, I wont need more of the same this year...so nothing extra from me.

For the first time ever the 2021 range has encouraged me to do some cancels too.. ive lost FOMO suddenly with so many extra numbers to pick from, on yet to be released toolings, I can suddenly feel fussy.

Last year was hard to beat... I think there was some gems last year that are going to be remembered into the future, especially considering the year that it was.

I think Hornby's set themselves a real challenge on the 9F, thats there toughest duplication to try to beat yet. A3, I get it, but not for me. P2.. too soon.

I wonder if duplicating their own tooling is considered Opex rather than Capex ?

this year.. not bad, not impressive but it will do., But I think theres going to be a ton of discount coaches later in the year though.