Modelling Network Southeast

[Newmodeller96]

Hi Everyone, 

 

I have had a couple of posts on this site before but I am really struggling with the planning of my new layout. 

 

I know that I want to model in the 80s to modern day era in the Network Southeast to Southeastern Rail liveries and area. 

 

I have finished the baseboards that fit the space I have and have put a picture of the dimensions below. 

 

What I want to include in the layout are:

- Branch line terminus

- TMD/diesel engine sheds

- EMU/DMU Sheds. 

 

In the space I am thinking that the most I will be able to run is 4 car EMU/DMUs.

 

Every layout that I come up with seems to just not fulfill me when I’m laying the track and looking at the scenic properties as well, any help from anyone with ideas would be amazing right now as I have hit a wall. 

 

Thanks

H

 

 

[TJ52]

I presume you have considered this, but is there any scope for a lift out section to make a continuous run?

 

Terry

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, Newmodeller96 said:

I have had a couple of posts on this site before but I am really struggling with the planning of my new layout. 

 

Actually six threads, going over similar ground each time:

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/profile/40392-newmodeller96/content/&type=forums_topic&change_section=1

 

You really need to have a think about what you want and what you can actually achieve and try and reconcile the two in your mind, or you are just going to keep going round in circles.

 

[Newmodeller96]

1 hour ago, TJ52 said:

I presume you have considered this, but is there any scope for a lift out section to make a continuous run?

 

Terry

Hi Terry, 

 

Unfortunately no as there is a large water tank at that end of the loft space that is floor to roof.

 

H

[Tallpaul69]

2 hours ago, Newmodeller96 said:

Hi Terry, 

 

Unfortunately no as there is a large water tank at that end of the loft space that is floor to roof.

 

H

Where is the start of the tank in relation to your baseboards?

 

Could you not have a cross board part way down the your long boards, say 2m from the end of the 1.5m cross board?

I also think you could fill in the corners from the side boards to the end board. I would also have made one of the side boards wider as 610mm is quite narrow if you want a railway in a scenic setting rather than it being all railway?

Best of Luck!

Paul 

[Newmodeller96]

30 minutes ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Where is the start of the tank in relation to your baseboards?

 

Could you not have a cross board part way down the your long boards, say 2m from the end of the 1.5m cross board?

I also think you could fill in the corners from the side boards to the end board. I would also have made one of the side boards wider as 610mm is quite narrow if you want a railway in a scenic setting rather than it being all railway?

Best of Luck!

Paul 

Thanks for your comment paul, the tank starts about 10cm from the end of the shorter baseboard, I hadn’t thought about another board across the middle but would have to check with space around the roof joists as they are all in the centre of the loft, hence the U shape. 

 

In terms of width I went with 600 as it meant that I could have storage space still underneath without taking up too much space in the loft itself! Would love to have gone deeper but had to compromise with my fiancé as she wants space to store in the loft! 
 

Thanks

H

[Zomboid]

I think you're looking for more than the space can really accommodate. Asking for locomotives in the South East area (which I assume means Kent?) is a bit of a stretch, as it was all electrified in the 1950s. You'd possibly have a fuelling point in the EMU depot for any inter regional trains, or you could focus on freight and justify a proper loco depot.

 

There are only a few actual termini in the South East area: Bromley North, Hayes and Sheerness are the only ones that come to mind. None would have seen regular loco hauled passenger trains.

[Newmodeller96]

38 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

I think you're looking for more than the space can really accommodate. Asking for locomotives in the South East area (which I assume means Kent?) is a bit of a stretch, as it was all electrified in the 1950s. You'd possibly have a fuelling point in the EMU depot for any inter regional trains, or you could focus on freight and justify a proper loco depot.

 

There are only a few actual termini in the South East area: Bromley North, Hayes and Sheerness are the only ones that come to mind. None would have seen regular loco hauled passenger trains.

I'm not thinking just kent but the whole of the Network Southeast routes. Having done a bit of digging today I am wondering if I could do a scaled down version of Holborn Viaduct at one side of the board heading to an EMU shed on the other side of the board e.g. what would have been at Orpington in the 80's?

 

[Zomboid]

That's essentially a design that you've already drawn up in one of your other threads.

 

Why do you want EMU sheds? There's essentially no play value with fixed formation trains, they are literally storage sidings, but you can't use them to represent the rest of the world.

 

I would suggest a variation of Weymouth. After electrification there were the EMUs to Waterloo, and the Castle Cary line had loco hauled trains as well as sprinters. You could use 442s if you like, but any old EMU would do the job in a fictional location.

[Tallpaul69]

Given the constraint of the water tank, I think my idea of a cross board (if the joists allow!) by giving you a round and round capability would give you something that is going to give you more enjoyment in the long term.

 

It is also very good to set a couple of trains running round and round while you are working on scenery or other aspects of the model.

As others have said, NSE Terminals that you could fit in are not many, whereas through stations , there are many. 

I agree you should stay away from the electrified lines, I suggest the Thames valley or Didcot/Oxford area would be good allowing you to have loco hauled trains as well as DMUs. You could also run intercity trains.

 

If you must have electrified linesYou could go for somewhere like Blackfriars which had 2 through platforms and two terminating platforms? This would, I suggest, be a better idea than Holborn Viaduct as the through lines to St. Pancras give you more variations in traffic! It also had some storage loops nearby across the Blackfriars Thames River bridge.  

 

Best of Luck

Paul

[Newmodeller96]

Hi All,

Thank you for all your suggestions. I have taken it on board and have done some tweaking!

 

Have decided to create a fictional through station with a couple of terminal platforms like a scaled down orpington. I would still like a depot of some kind and now that I am heading more for a fictional area was wondering if anyone had any suggestions of ideas for diesel yards that I could look at to get some ideas. Thanks

H

[Newmodeller96]

Hi All, 

 

I have gone back to the drawing board. Now I know this isn’t perfect but have created this track plan as a compacted version of a local station and would love to hear your thoughts on it.  I know that any trains on platform 1 cannot get to the sidings on the top left but I’m not too worried about this as it is more that these sidings are used for the terminating trains in platforms 3,4 & 5. The trains on 1&2 I am hoping will be able to go off to a fiddle yard or possible a continuous run thanks to ideas from @Tallpaul69!!

 

I have used PECO streamline for the trackwork on the top half and Set track for the mainlines as this is the stuff I currently have to work with. 
 

thanks

H

[Satan's Goldfish]

I've been having a play around with a couple of ideas for your available space (unfortunately the system i'm on right now won't let me post pictures to RMweb, but i'll try to remember to add them when i get home later) and ideas. They are just blocky diagrams based on your dimensions provided in the first post rather than scale drawings, 1 design is end to end, the other is roundy.

 

I wasn't aware of your previous threads and have deliberately not looked at them to avoid being swayed by what you've previously done and been dissatisfied with. However the first question would be 'why have you not felt fulfilled by your previous attempts?' I'd agree with the idea that if you can go roundy with a small bit of extra baseboard in front of the water tank then do so, the ability to leave something circulating while you work on other items can help boost the motivation. I find it helps as well to create a sense of purpose for what your train movements are rather than just pointless shuttling back and forth, that doesn't really work in 'the bigger picture' of the rest of the world.

 

Scenically, would you prefer your layout to appear more town or country? or have a little of both?

 

Another point based on your plan above; I can fully understand designing a plan using what items you have to hand. I would advise that even though you are currently using set track curves, leave yourself room to use flexitrack curves in the future at a larger radius as your supplies and skills improve. You have a decent amount of potential space, with some careful design you'll find that carriages look much nicer sweeping around big wide curves when you're in a position to achieve that rather than jarring across tight set track and reverse curves in point work.

[Newmodeller96]

@Satan's Goldfish thank you for

your points. Some have really made me think. 
 

I have been thinking long and hard and have decided that I will probably link the bottoms to the 2 boards together but with a removable fiddle yard so that I can still have continuous runs of trains but it gives me the storage space to hold trains when I’m modelling aswell. 
 

the scenic elements are a mixture of the 2! I’m hoping the station is edge of suburbia heading out into the countryside on the other side of the layout where I’m thinking of having a small diesel yard. The set track curves are what I dislike the most but the thought of using flexitrack for the corners scares the bejesus out of me, but that would definitely be my preferred choice of corner! 
 

Below is my most recent update to the plan which I have half laid out on the baseboards and am really pleased with! Ignore my scribblings they are just for me to imagine how the scenic elements could lay around the track. 
 

Something someone might be able to answer is there a way to compress the 2 3-way turnouts in the station into a kind of triple slip? I know I won’t gain much space from doing that but just an idea! 
 

Thanks H
 

[ITG]

Observation.......May or may not be an issue for you, but platform (?) 5 can only be used for arrivals, as there is no way out (other than the emu sheds as you say) for departures to run correctly on double track main line. There’s a lot of ins and outs to and from emu sheds to get trains in/out of platforms 1 & 2.

[Satan's Goldfish]

As mentioned, see picture below. It's a block drawing rather than detailed, so imagine the route line is double track, not single! In certain station designs, not all tracks need to be able to access the scenic storage sidings which helps as a bit of a space saver and can make for some smoother point work. On the end to end design I've added 2x separate routes into the hidden sidings so there's a valid reason for freight to reverse at the station but there's no freight facilities on scene. An alternative to this is you only half the width as hidden sidings and the space infront becomes a couple of goods sidings. 

 

I hope these are fairly self explanatory and give you some thought on how to fit things into your space. 

 

[Satan's Goldfish]

Additional ref your diesel depot plan above; try not to overcomplicate things to start with, keep it simple and it will look less cluttered. Taking Ipswich as an example (the loco stabling point is along side the carriage sidings next to the station), it is simple sidings that can hold several engines each, with a fuel point along side with a siding for the diesel tanker. There isn't any of the additional loops you've added to your design.

[Tallpaul69]

16 hours ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

Additional ref your diesel depot plan above; try not to overcomplicate things to start with, keep it simple and it will look less cluttered. Taking Ipswich as an example (the loco stabling point is along side the carriage sidings next to the station), it is simple sidings that can hold several engines each, with a fuel point along side with a siding for the diesel tanker. There isn't any of the additional loops you've added to your design.

I agree. 

It would be better to replace your Diesel Depot with more sidings for trains. If you are hoping (long term?) to replicate the service that will need a 5 platform terminus you need more than 5 hidden sidings to hold trains. Remember, on the real railway a given train only appears once  in say a couple of hours, longer if it is a mainline train. It has to get to somewhere, wat, and then return!

Even if you dedicate one of your 5 platforms to parcels traffic, you want to avoid trains returning too quickly!

 

Also, if you want to use loco hauled stock, you do need at your hidden sidings somewhere to hold a couple of additional engines, to go on the outer end of arriving trains, but not a full depot!

Cheers

Paul

[ITG]

14 minutes ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Also, if you want to use loco hauled stock, you do need at your hidden sidings somewhere to hold a couple of additional engines, to go on the outer end of arriving trains, but not a full depot!

And if using loco hauled trains, as there isn’t a run round loop within the platform area, where are the waiting locos (ie either for departing train or resting after arriving train) going to ‘park’? Unless they run back ‘light’ to the diesel depot? And back again. 

[Newmodeller96]

I have added a couple of loco sidings in place for some of the diesel depot, I’ve also added a loco spur to the station, just need to add a run around loop somewhere in the station area. 

As you can see there is now a continuous run which I will turn into a hidden fiddle yard (just need to work out).

 

 

 

[RobinofLoxley]

A germ of a plan is now developing. But look at the station area, you have drawn a double slip but immediately to the left of it is a complex crossover that will surely take up a lot more space than the diagram shows, which affects the available space and length of everything else. As drawn there isnt any space for platforms - approx double standard track spacing is what you need to accommodate them. There is wiggle room however.

[Mike Storey]

Following on from Robin, I would suggest the following:

 

1. Turn your platform 5 into just a headshunt for the EMU sidings. This will save you an awful lot of complicated pointwork, allows longer sidings, and allows better width for your remaining platforms. This arrangement works at Ramsgate, at both ends (although the depot is alongside the station there), and also at Lovers Walk. It also allows for the possibility of a carriage washer. The disadvantage is a double-shunt for any such move, but just how many times will you use it in a session?

 

2. In connection with the above, make your island platforms between 1 & 2, and between 3 & 4. This will also save space and allow more realistic platform widths.

 

3. Lose the crossover from 2 to 3, and relocate the Up/Down crossover further to the "west". This will give you much more space for platform lengths for 1&2, and allows access from the EMU sidings via the headshunt to all platforms anyway.

 

I would agree with others that a continuous run is far better for enjoyment than an end-to-end.

 

 

[RobinofLoxley]

I had a closer look at this on a template of the available area I made up in Anyrail using mainly Peco track and streamline points, which have a 12 degree angle resulting in a slight fanning out appearance, which doesnt appear so much when the track is laid, but the 12 degrees compared to 25 with setrack results in a more streamlined appearance - hence the name I suppose. I used a lot of flexitrack sections to save time building the picture . I also removed a lot of stuff that you might not use when operating, as it either clogs the layout up or has no real function. I put some of the yard sidings on the opposite side of the main run but that was just because I could....

 

The terminus is a Minories plan which is elegant and minimalist, and much admired (maybe over admired but who am I to say?)

 

[Newmodeller96]

Thanks for these comments @RobinofLoxley I mentioned further up in the thread about the complex track work at the station about having it bespoke made to make it fit into the space and have had no comments on it until yours, It is a stretch to make that piece work but I think possible if made bespoke. 
 In terms of platform spacing I new it would tweaking but it was more just the ideas on page than the final diagram, etc.

 

@Mike StoreyRamsgate  was were my original ideas were formed before looking at a station closer to home with Orpington. Orpington is where my godfather worked in the 80s aswell as being my fathers home town which is why I wanted to model it like this, hence the point work and platform layout. 
 

I agree about removing the cross over between 2&3. I’m sorry that all the headshunt stuff kinda goes over my head as I always seem to get confused when people start using “jargon” to describe movements but that’s my lack of knowledge to that side of things. And yes I agree to a continuous run as with everyone and will definitely be adding it. 
 

@RobinofLoxleyi would prefer to use streamline on all the track as you have in your design but I have a significant amount of set track and cannot afford to be getting rid of it all and buying new streamline which is why I have used a mixture of the 2 as I can then use what I have on some of the layout and then buy new streamline for the specific areas (the station) that I could use it. 
 

I do like the idea of the split depot on either side of the layout as that makes me think of the yards at grove park obviously on a smaller scale, I’m wondering if I could use one side of the track as a full train depot and a small loco only depot on the other side of the tracks? 
 

Thanks all! Loving the ideas and really getting me thinking.

 

H

[njee20]

You appear to have a three way double slip. A triple slip...?! I’m not sure bespoke trackwork is going to be worthwhile. I’m sure it’s technically feasible, but I’d recommend simplifying your plan,  like Robin’s variant.